'Shop Talk': Did Palin's 'Blood Libel' Comment Go Too Far?

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MICHEL MARTIN, host:

I'm Michel Martin and this is TELL ME MORE from NPR News.

It's time for our weekly visit to the Barbershop where the guys talk about what's in the news and what's on their minds. Sitting in the chairs for a shapeup this week are author Jimi Izrael, civil rights attorney and editor, Arsalan Iftikhar, Lester Spence, who is an associate professor of political science and Africana studies at Johns Hopkins University and opinion editor at The Weekly Standard, Matthew Continetti. Take it away, Jimi.

Mr. JIMI IZRAEL (Author): Thanks, Michel. Hey, fellas, welcome to the shop. How are we doing?

Mr. ARSALAN IFTIKHAR (Civil Rights Attorney): Hey, hey, hey.

Mr. MATTHEW CONTINETTI (Opinion Editor, Weekly Standard): Good, how are you, Jimi?

Mr. IZRAEL: Matt C. Long time. Welcome back.

Mr. CONTINETTI: It's been a while. Happy New Year to you.

Mr. IZRAEL: And to you, the good doctor, my man.

Professor LESTER SPENCE (Political Science and Africana Studies, Johns Hopkins University): Hey, how are you doing, man?

Mr. IZRAEL: Man, somber times, fellas, somber times. You know, it's been a roller coaster of a week. The nation is healing from the tragic shooting in Arizona and by Wednesday, the day of memorial for the victims was held, many in this country were taking a hard look at how we speak to each other, Michel.

MARTIN: And it's interesting. I think a lot of people commented on this, how -I don't know what this means, how quickly it became a political showdown, you know, of sorts. And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember things moving in that direction quite so quickly. A lot of people, of course, took note of the remarks of President Obama at the memorial service in Tucson on Wednesday. I'll play a short clip of that.

President BARACK OBAMA: As we discuss these issues, let each of us do so with a good dose of humility, rather than pointing fingers or assigning blame. Let's use this occasion to expand our moral imaginations, to listen to each other more carefully, to sharpen our instincts for empathy and remind ourselves of all the ways that our hopes and dreams are bound together.

MARTIN: So, there's that and then of course there are a number of other remarks, which we can sort of talk about later, but there is the president to begin with.

Mr. IZRAEL: Thanks for that, Michel. All right, well, the president's remarks were supposed to pay tribute to the victims and quell some of the harsh rhetoric before and since the shooting.

Matt, let's start with you. Did the president hit the right tone?

Mr. CONTINETTI: Oh, absolutely. I thought it was a great speech, the president. I don't think you can find anyone who really disagrees with that. And the reason why I think it was such a great speech was Obama is best when he's at the 30,000 foot altitude level where he just rises above it all and he speaks as a national figure.

And the truth is that this is the first time in a few years, actually, where he's really spoken as the president of all America. And he didn't politicize an apolitical event. And he focused - and I think this was the most important thing - he focused on the little girl and talked about the little girl's hopes and dreams for America and challenged all of us to live up to her vision of American society. And I think that's something we can all agree that we'd like to do.

Mr. IZRAEL: Lester.

Prof. SPENCE: I've got a - my youngest girl is nine. So, I too was really, really deeply touched by Obama's statement and the way he used the little nine-year-old's vision, the way he called us all to kind of live - or make a democracy that she could actually be proud of. Yeah, I've got challenges, but we could talk about those later. Suffice it to say that - this is one of the few times over the past couple of years where I'm, like, man, I'm glad he's my president.

Mr. IZRAEL: Right. Yeah, I mean, I've criticized him. Look, when he was on the path, pathway to presidency, I criticized him for his pastoral tone, but, you know, this was the time, you know, if at all. And he absolutely hit the right note. A-train.

Mr. IFTIKHAR: Yeah, I mean I thought that it was a very uplifting speech. I think that's what America needed at the time. And for me and I'm sure millions of people who actually voted for him, you know, I remember during the speech I kept thinking, I miss you, man. It's, like, this is the Obama that, you know, we all voted for. What I found interesting was in the interest...

MARTIN: Well, not all. Not all.

Mr. IFTIKHAR: Right.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. IFTIKHAR: But, what I found interesting was that, you know, during the speech, it was quite clear that, you know, some of the University of Arizona students were probably pre-partying at the Phi Beta potato fraternity house because they were cheering some inopportune times. And I kept - I wanted to say, dude, it's a memorial, not March Madness.

MARTIN: Well, I think that it's true, that it was a very difficult context. I mean there were 26,000 people there and there was this pep rally tone, which I found really strange. But then some of the commentators there kind of explained it and some of them said that, you know, there had been this feeling of shame, you know, that sometimes happens in a community when something terrible happens. And some of the people who were the reporters there said that this was kind of a relief for a lot of people, that they felt this is an opportunity to feel proud of their city and proud of their community. But I get it.

Mr. IZRAEL: You know what it reminded me of, Michel? It reminded me of when Nikki Giovanni gave her speech right after Virginia Tech. There was a similar attitude. There was, you know, we're going to let us destroy us and that's what his speech kind of - that's what the atmosphere reminded me of.

MARTIN: And it is difficult to figure out in a crowd like that how best to express that. I mean there are some, you know, schools for example which don't permit applause at public rallies. You know, you're allowed to snap, for example, that's the custom of some places per se. But, you know, that's what happened.

So, we're having our weekly visit to the Barbershop with Jimi Izrael, Arsalan Iftikhar, Lester Spence and Matthew Continetti.

Back to you Jimi.

Mr. IZRAEL: Thank you, Michel. All right fellas, keeping it moving. Former vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin released a Web video ahead of President Obama's remarks in Arizona on Wednesday. Now the video was nearly eight minutes long and appeared to be very presidential with the American flag in the background, Michel.

MARTIN: Yeah, that's true. And we talked a little bit earlier in the program about the comment that's gotten a lot of the people's attention, the blood libel comment. I don't know that we need to talk more about that. You can if you want to. But I just want to play another clip which kind of gives the rationale for why she felt a need to speak out.

And, of course, many people will remember that many people have said - some people have said - that her use of the crosshairs on her website sort of targeting certain political districts was inappropriate. It was taken down in the wake of the shooting. But it is worth noting that Gabrielle Giffords, who was the evident target of the attack, was one of those who did not feel that that was appropriate and had spoken about that months in advance and this is in part what Sarah Palin had to say.

Ms. SARAH PALIN (Former Republican Governor, Alaska): There are those who claim political rhetoric is to blame for the despicable act of this deranged, apparently apolitical criminal. And they claim political debate has somehow gotten more heated just recently. But when was it less heated? Back in those calm days when political figures literally settled their differences with dueling pistols?

In an ideal world all discourse would be civil and all disagreements cordial. But our Founding Fathers knew they weren't designing a system for perfect men and women. If men and women were angels, there would be no need for government.

Mr. IZRAEL: Wow. Thanks for that, Michel.

Dr. Spence, you know, I listen to her, and follow me on this man, it almost makes her sound kind of like the voice of reason. Because - and follow me. Don't taze me, bro. I mean what I'm getting at is political discourse is hot by nature. You know, and a free-speech democracy, you know, who's policing the speech? I mean who draws the line? I don't know.

MARTIN: It was reasonable. Why is that a shock? I mean it was a reasoned argument which people are free to agree or disagree with but I don't, anyway, Lester, go ahead. You wanted to hear from Lester on this, and I do too.

Prof. SPENCE: So there are two sets of claims. So one set of claims given by Obama and others is that we should at least strive to be truthful and honest and then work on the assumption that our counterparts are like us, interested in creating a better country, right? And then there's this other set of claim that says well, listen, we feel very strongly about what our beliefs are and we think that you're pretty much illegitimate, and given that, we don't really think that the normal rules apply, right? So we can all say yeah, we want people to be honest but the reality is, is that what Sarah Palin is saying is in one way absolutely correct.

I mean she really believes that the fundamental forces she is arrayed against are illegitimate. I'm not sure how you have cordial conversation under those, you know, under those circumstances. And that's...

MARTIN: So was it a good video or not? Was it a good speech or not, Lester, from your perspective?

Prof. SPENCE: Well, she's speaking - well, it's - and it's, thank you. It's important to understand also that she's not speaking to us. She's speaking to her people. So for that, so along those lines, it was a great speech for her people.

MARTIN: Well, I don't know.

Mr. CONTINETTI: That's just wrong.

MARTIN: Go ahead, Matthew.

Mr. CONTINETTI: I mean, you know, it's a, that would be what...

Mr. IZRAEL: Go ahead, Matthew.

MARTIN: Go ahead.

Mr. CONTINETTI: ...President Obama would call a false choice. I mean the fact is you have to put this speech in context. Within hours of the event, Paul Krugman of The New York Times was literally blaming the event on Sarah Palin, OK? So a mass murder was being pinned on Sarah Palin - a mass murderer that had no relationship to politics as we conceive it whatsoever. So I think it was entirely appropriate for Palin to try to defend herself. And she did it basically the only time she could, which was before the president's speech.

And I think Obama's speech basically closed the matter, it settled it. And, you know, Palin, no matter - she doesn't think her opponents are illegitimate. If anything you turn to like Paul Krugman who actually thinks his opponents are illegitimate and are acting out in violence.

Prof. SPENCE: No, no, but wait a second. Wait a second.

MARTIN: But can I - go ahead. I'm sorry.

Mr. IZRAEL: Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Arsalan?

Prof. SPENCE: Real quick.

MARTIN: Go ahead.

Prof. SPENCE: I apologize. This is Lester. Real quick.

MARTIN: Go ahead, Lester, really quick.

Prof. SPENCE: She actually suggested that the president propose - supported a health care panel - a health care legislation with death panels.

Mr. CONTINETTI: That's not saying that he's an illegitimate actor. That's her characterization of a policy that we can debate separately.

Prof. SPENCE: You've got to be kidding me.

MARTIN: But can I just say one thing about this though? Can I just say one thing about that, keeping it civil, that one of the things that interested me about this is that I thought her argument was but - Gabby Giffords' comments and the comments about the gun sights was not without a context too. Gabby Giffords' office had been vandalized, that people had taken guns to her public events, they've taken guns to public events that President Obama was holding in the course of the health care debate, so that's thing one.

And thing two, I guess the piece of this that I want to say - I want to say this, Arsalan, is that when Nidal Hasan killed and wounded many people at Fort Hood, there was an argument that we need to look at the context is was he being radical? He's clearly unstable.

Mr. CONTINETTI: And you know why there was that context?

MARTIN: But he is clearly unstable.

Mr. CONTINETTI: Because he had contacts with Anwar al-Awlaki in Yemen...

MARTIN: Yeah. But he is clearly unstable and mentally...

Mr. CONTINETTI: And he had a record of...

MARTIN: But all my point, Matthew, is that many reasonable people said we need to look at whether political correctness about his identity as a Muslim was part of the reason he was not screened appropriately. So my question is, is it that when brown people are always perceived to be part of a group and white people are always perceived to be individuals, that's the question is. But if context matters in one case why can't reasonable people ask questions about context in both cases? That's my question.

Mr. CONTINETTI: Because even, I mean Hasan, the analogy is not correct. Because it's literally the case that he was part of a political movement. Even, no matter what his mental state was, he was participating in a political movement. In this case it's simply exploitative to try to bring in a separate...

Mr. IZRAEL: Let's get A-Train in here.

MARTIN: Go ahead.

Mr. CONTINETTI: ...argument into what this insane person did.

MARTIN: OK. Arsalan?

Mr. IZRAEL: A-Train.

Mr. IFTIKHAR: Well, it looks I'm going to have to pack heat like I'm the oven door and give the first redonkulous award of 2011 to Sarah Palin. I can't get over the blood libel statement. I mean, at the end of the day, the only people that can talk about blood libel are Dorothy Morris, Phyllis Scheck, Dorwan Stoddard, Gabe Zimmerman, Judge John Roll and nine-year-old Christina Taylor Green because their blood actually flowed because of the acts of this deranged man, who, for whatever purpose, targeted Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and this political rally outside a Safeway in Tucson.

What's interesting to note is that Sarah Palin in her video, you know, called out people for placing collective blame on her and the tea party but, for example, you know, during the whole ground zero mosque debate, Sarah Palin had no problem with collective blame saying that the stigma of 9/11 should be transposed on all Muslims and all mosques and in the Islamic centers near ground zero.

There's a great article in Slate magazine called "Sarah Palin Blood Libel Hypocrite," which basically says that she opposes collective blame for anyone that is not her.

MARTIN: OK. Let's let Matthew speak to this if he would care to.

Mr. CONTINETTI: No. I mean I think that's a fair point. I mean, you know, you can make that point. Collective responsibility, I disagreed with Palin on the ground zero mosque thing. Collective responsibility is always wrong so that's just a separate point.

My point is I think it's exploitative to bring in a separate discussion that we've been having for the past two years over the appropriate limits of political discourse into an event that all evidence - all - the overwhelming evidence - just read the stories about this kid. He had nothing to do with politics as we conceive it. He didn't. And in fact, the incident it seems that sparked it occurred in 2007, long before anyone had heard of Sarah Palin and long before the tea party was a glint in someone's eye.

MARTIN: Fair enough. Let's ask in the couple of minutes - we have like three minutes left - what do you think should happen going forward, those of you who feel comfortable being in the should business, which I'm not in? But, Matthew, do you, you're an opinion guy so...

Mr. CONTINETTI: I think we should follow the president's advice. I think what the president says was completely reasonable. Going forward, let's try to live up to what that little girl wanted out of her democracy and what, you know, what we all have in ourselves, which is to speak reasonably. That's, I mean there's nothing wrong with calling for reasoned discourse. What I think is wrong is trying to start blaming unreasoned discourse for a mass murder.

Mr. IFTIKHAR: One of the things that I...

MARTIN: Go ahead, Arsalan.

Mr. IFTIKHAR: One of the things that I hope will be investigated, you know, regardless of whether or not it's found that Jared Loughner had any sort of, you know, political affiliation is the question: What if Jared Loughner was a Muslim? What if he was a brown Muslim man? Would this be called an act of domestic terrorism? And is there a double standard where, you know, where if a deranged white man commits an act of mass murder and a deranged and brown man commits an act of murder that we have different double standards there?

MARTIN: OK. Lester Spence, what do you think should happen going forward?

Prof. SPENCE: I think that the president has to make a choice between an imagined world where everybody is civil and an imagined world where we have the one percent of the wealthy own less than 49.7 percent of the wealth. To that extent, I think the choice should be to focus on that imagined world with less wealth inequality and not to focus as much on civil because it's clear that Sarah Palin and her supporters aren't really interested in civil discourse.

MARTIN: Jimi Izrael, what do you think? What do you think going forward? What would you like to see happen and how would it be enforced? That's one of the questions I, you know, I always have is that...

Mr. IZRAEL: Yeah, that's my big question, Michel. You know I'm all for civil discourse but who's deciding what civil and what's not? That's what scares me. Who's deciding? Who is the arbiter?

MARTIN: Good point. Matthew, we have another minute left. Do you want to have a - you never get the last word so I'm going to give you the last word.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. CONTINETTI: I think Jimi's right. I think it's really - it's bad idea to start policing speech and...

MARTIN: But then how would your call for civility be enforced?

Mr. CONTINETTI: It's called self-control, right?

MARTIN: Mm-hmm.

Mr. CONTINETTI: And a requirement of self-government, which we're supposed to have in our country, is self-control. And so we need to just control ourselves.

MARTIN: And you're going to...

Mr. IFTIKHAR: But, Matthew, you know when people like Sharron Angle, you know, talk about Second Amendment remedies or Sarah Palin says don't retreat, reload, they're not talking about reloading their PEZ dispensers. You know, this is a real, you know, there are gun implications to this. I mean Ohio's Glock 9 sales went up 65 percent the day after the Arizona shooting.

MARTIN: OK. OK.

Mr. CONTINETTI: We can have a reasoned debate about public policy dealing with gun control and mental illness in this country. That's different.

Prof. SPENCE: But we don't.

MARTIN: OK. I promised Matthew the last word and so I'm going to let him have the last word, this time just for the new year. Just for the new year.

(Soundbite of laughter)

MARTIN: OK. Well, word.

Matthew Continetti is the opinion editor at The Weekly Standard. "The Persecution of Sarah Palin: How the Elite Media Tried to Bring Down a Rising Star" is his latest book. Jimi Izrael is author of the book, "The Denzel Principle." He's with us from member station WCPN. Here with us in Washington, Matthew Continetti, Lester Spence, assistant professor of Political Science and Africana Studies at Johns Hopkins University - excuse me, he's actually with us from Baltimore. Here in Washington, Arsalan Iftikhar, founder of themuslimguy.com and a legal fellow for the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding.

Gentlemen, thank you all so much. Difficult week. Thank you for coming.

Mr. IFTIKHAR: Peace.

Mr. CONTINETTI: Thank you.

Prof. SPENCE: Thank you.

Mr. IZRAEL: Yup-yup.

(Soundbite of music)

MARTIN: And that's our program for today. I'm Michel Martin and this is TELL ME MORE from NPR News.

Let's talk more on Monday.

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