The things described here seems to be more rational than the attack on French Fry happened several years ago in the US.

Sent by Charlie | 12:04 PM ET | 05-23-2008

I think some of the criticism is too harsh. Many pledged early may not know the full extent of the disaster at the time. You at least have to allow people to readjust as the weight of the disaster become clear.

Sent by Tom | 12:23 PM ET | 05-23-2008

This big debate, as you said yourself, is a debate which means there are two sides of opinions. There are plenty people in Chinese society (and the blogland) that dismiss this "moralist charity bashing" as self-centered and immoral by itself. Generally speaking, however, the problem in this case is that Chinese society has yet to establish a well oiled philanthropy culture. Besides a hand full of governmental/semi-offical charity orgnizations, the private sector is largely left out of this circle. The national taxation system is also not set up to encourage of private donations like the western countries do. So for many social activists who want to see the release fund to raise, bashing wealthy and corporations are the only way. Remember the time of Asian Tsunami when US was criticized by UN for being stingy? This is somewhat similar in nature.

In addition to the traditional Confucianist influence, the communist egalitarianism is probably another reason why those people that have very little hate the mega millionaires in China. The Marxism's class warfare theories are still taught in high schools today. Without a giant middle class similar to that of US and other western countries, you will see this tension continue to display.

Sent by Bill | 1:26 PM ET | 05-23-2008

I feel China as a nation is going through steps of depressions. Right now people are ultra-touchy; emotion is running high and lots of people are angry. Some of it is understandable. We find corruption with the distribution of the Relief Contributions, non-transparent operations of some charity groups. We see cold-blooded side of the human nature from time to time. People are angry because they feel their kindness is wasted by some dirty politicians and corrupted system. We need constructive criticism. I dare say if there is anything good coming out of this disaster, it would the positive changes for China. I am worried now because anger is not healthy. It needs to be redirected to something constructive. China, please hold on. It is not time to fall apart!

Sent by wec080 | 1:39 PM ET | 05-23-2008

You may need to mention the fact that there is a lot more people dismiss such force-to-donation attitude. I personally think it is a shame to discuss how much other people or country donate. We appreciate all helps in any form given to us.

Sent by C. Liang | 2:35 PM ET | 05-23-2008

I think Bill has some good observations. I always wonder how "representative" those "Feng Qing" ("angry youth"/AY) extreme (equalitarianist or nationalist) bloggers are. I feel relieved to see that many Chinese on the Chinese Internet appear to be more mature and more rational than those AYs.

I also noticed that whenever someone mentioned something not so positive in China, there would be people who are very quick to point out that "Americans are no better" before anything else (the Chinese government's standard reaction to criticism is like this too). Sure, Americans are not all saints, and some may be less than intelligent (especially in some Chinese eyes) or rational. U. S. is not heaven, and there is also "dark side" here. And politicians here take advantage of people's patriotist feelings too (which I would equally shake my head at). But at least in this country people have the basic freedom of speech and access to information. (A joke - "Americans can freely criticize their government and leaders. So what, we Chinese can criticize their government and leaders too.) And that's a poor excuse for the negative things in China.
Some said on this blog that the fist-pumping of AYs after the quake is the same as American's saying "God bless America" after 911 (both showing unity and encuragement). I beg to disagree. Genrally, after 911, I did not see Americans promoting resentment towards people or companies in other countries. Nobody blamed any foreign people for not donating enough. On the other hand, after the earthquake in Sichuan, I have seen overwhelming sympathy, sincere care, tears and prayers, from Americans and people in other "western" countries. (But to my great sadness I saw AYs in China even taking pleasure in the misfortune of 911 or Katrina. Thank goodness that AYs are probably only a very small group of people with extreme ideologies in China.) That's the huge difference between extreme nationalism and true humanism.

Sent by Sichuanese2 | 3:18 PM ET | 05-23-2008

I did not read this one when I posted my comments before.
Howard French: "Compassion for quake victims is compatible with the quest for truth" links - English:
http://www.howardwfrench.com/archives/2008/05/22/compassion_for_quake_victims_is_compatible_with_the_quest_for_truth/

Chinese translation (on "Cat's Eyes"): http://club.cat898.com/newbbs/dispbbs.asp?boardid=1&id=2263542

Sent by Sichuanese2 | 3:55 PM ET | 05-23-2008

http://sichuaneq.googlepages.com/home

Sent by simon | 4:21 PM ET | 05-23-2008

China will not fall apart, wec080, not now, not ever !

I am very grateful for anyone who is willing to help regardless, so are the majority of Chinese people, I firmly believe. I however understand these bloggers especially in the wake of such devastation, just like the calling to change "French Fry" into "Freedom Fry" after 9/11. Let's leave them alone and they will come around.

Sent by cz | 6:21 PM ET | 05-23-2008

As Chinese we like other donations that on dollar not less and one million not much, we need united to help our country, yes I donate, my wife donate, and my children donate, my company donate, I personally never donate anything to china but this is the time to show how much I care my beloved country and my people.

Sent by robert | 6:21 PM ET | 05-23-2008

Information flow in China is nothing like it is in the West...for those who have not lived in China, it is hard to comprehend that there is actually a faster flow of information in China than it is in the US. The Chinese are very clear on INTENTION, there's a "thought" that is connected to the amount of donation...I love it when westerners say....well...it's the thought that counts, but the amount is equivalent to that "thought..."...it is the "thought, or better called--heart (where it is)...just think...a migrant one dollar a day worker in Shanghai is willing to donate 600 RMB... the equivalent of a months' hard hard labor...I know...cause I have lived in China for 5 years and seen the excruciating labor and risk they go through every day to put up all those skyscrapers...I've even heard that they would put all their Sichuan brothers on their train on their hard earned money... that's the kind of "heart" people are expecting from their own...it's hard to understand this as a westerner...but not if you are truly Chinese

Sent by Susan | 8:17 PM ET | 05-23-2008

Forgive YaoMing and forgive ourselves. Do not judge too soon.

Sent by June Wang, Los Angeles | 11:05 PM ET | 05-23-2008

To Sichuanese2:
You say what you choose to say. That's fine. But I need to let you know something you choose not to say. I read many bloggers after this earthquake, I do read that some Americans cursed earthquake victims by saying their death bring American workers more jobs. Those comments are rare and these commentators are minority , just like the Angry Youth in China. You only see Angry Youths in China, you don't see, or you choose not to see these AYs in US? How do you think about Carferty in CNN?

I really cannot understand why you have to relate people mourning victims with western hater. If your purpose is to distance Chinese and American, you could have found a better way. Not this case, please.

Sent by C. Liang | 12:07 AM ET | 05-24-2008

Well, if there is freedom of speech, then all people including the bloggers have the very right to comment on the donation made by the celebrities and the big companies, both enjoying huge profits from the Chinese society. In some way the donations are investment - to attract attention for more profits. That I believe is the reason why those celebrities and companies also have the press with them when they give.
That being said, I appreciate all the help, no matter how much, to the earthquake victims.

Sent by Michael X Li | 12:23 AM ET | 05-24-2008

Sichuanese2, a piece of advice came to mind after reading your post: try a slightly wider angle view of the world. It's good for you.

Sent by cz | 1:32 AM ET | 05-24-2008

Thank you, Louisa and NPR. you brought us first hand reports from a distinctive view which adopts the view angle of those participants but yet deeply touches many peoples' hearts, rather than a self-centered view with a fair face. As a chinese, I appreciate your stories and am eager to hear more of your reports in the future. I think you striked both the hearts of Chinese and American and earned their trust in a good way. You might become a bridge between these two and bring the world more openess than ever.

Sent by Bin | 1:59 AM ET | 05-24-2008

I totally disagree with the criticism for the donors.
And these bloggers are very less in China. Most of Chinese people are really thanks to the donors no matter how much they donate.
You can find the respons from Chinese official who gave the genuine thanks to every donors.

Sent by Dallas | 2:28 AM ET | 05-24-2008

Although I do not disagree with the criticisms to the celebrities, I hope the traditional virtues, "Confucian notions of duty" and "idea of reciprocity", could solve another crucial problem, the widening gap between rich and poor.

I hope empathy and love would never being measured quantitatively in cold cash.

--
Well said Susan. Caring about the others and sacrificing for the greater good are essential in Confucian cultures: China, Korea and Japan. And it is hard to truly understand another culture. I could not understand why Americans are arguing whether global warming is man-made. Even if it is not man-made, so what? When stop driving an SUV helps, why wouldn't you do it?
It is like someone is against firefighting by arguing"I didn't start it".

Sent by Alan | 2:46 AM ET | 05-24-2008

However,this criticism did increase the donation. But I still disagree with this kind of criticism, there are a lot of Chinese netizens not so mature, coz internet is booming these years in China, which means there are a lot of people just begin to surful the internet. I think maybe some years later, they will be mature.

Sent by Dallas | 2:51 AM ET | 05-24-2008

The passed will be in peace, and we the living ones will move forward.

Sent by xiaodan Ge | 6:50 AM ET | 05-24-2008

Sichuanese2: your comment almost sounded funny, didn't most Americans supported Iraq war because they wrongly believed Iraq was guilty for 911? Americans didn't blame others?

Sent by EL | 10:10 AM ET | 05-24-2008

C. Liang, I am not "naive" enough to believe that there is no "angry youth" in the U. S. As I repeatedly said before, I am a Chinese who love my countrymen and who seek to tell the truth. For me truth would not distance people from each other (NPR's ATC reports are very good examples). Only extreme ideolody would. So I would distance myself from the AYs, Chiense or western, for sure. And it is my wish that any rational person, Chinese or westerners, would do the same. Extreme nationalism and other AY ideologies are exactly creating misunderstanding and even hatred among people. For me, opposing them is not sowing discord, but the opposite. You have your freedom to propose your conspiracy theory (that I am somebody who has a dark, hidden motive as part of an anti-China conspiracy), but demonizing me will certainly not bring people together.
Cz, I would give you the same advice ("try a slightly wider angle view of the world. It's good for you.")

Sent by Sichuanese2 | 10:22 AM ET | 05-24-2008

"You say what you choose to say. That's fine. But I need to let you know something you choose not to say. I read many bloggers after this earthquake, I do read that some Americans cursed earthquake victims by saying their death bring American workers more jobs. Those comments are rare and these commentators are minority , just like the Angry Youth in China. You only see Angry Youths in China, you don't see, or you choose not to see these AYs in US? How do you think about Carferty in CNN?

I really cannot understand why you have to relate people mourning victims with western hater. If your purpose is to distance Chinese and American, you could have found a better way. Not this case, please."

Well written, C. Liang!

Let's respect the passed and support the survived, it's time for human being to human being. Let's all reach out and help in our own way, be it prayer or monetary, be it small or big. And, Please don't use people's suffering for political agenda.

Sent by yang | 10:25 AM ET | 05-24-2008

I said this in my comments under another entry before:
As a Chinese working and living in the U. S., I pray that China, the country I am from, will become prosperous and progressive, contributing positively more to the world, respecting more the universalist values of democracy, freedom and human rights, and being more harmonious with the rest of the (now already globalized) world.

Sent by Sichuanese2 | 10:56 AM ET | 05-24-2008

My son-in-law was interviewed for one of the broadcasts by Robert Seagal. My daughter relayed to me that he felt Robert was trying to bait him into saying something anti-Chinese. Here is what she said:
V said Robet Siegel looked angry at him when he did the interview. V said they will probably edit most of what he said out since he was so pro china. He said Siegel continually tried to lead them into saying something anti-china, and looked angry when they got the better of the question. Or something to that extent.
When V was asked about the Tibet issue, he said some thing like: Every Chinese person knows there are 52 tribes in China, I don't think US citizens can say the same thing about their indigenous tribes. Anyways, even though they are not AS biased, they still have a bias, and as you see in their Chengdu Diary, they sound like me when I first got here, not after I've lived here for a while. They are still trying to understand China with a US mindset....which is impossible. You have to start thinking Chinese to understand China.

Sent by Sheri | 12:31 PM ET | 05-24-2008

Thank you for your background info, Sheri. I listened to Robert Siegel's interview yesterday. At the end of the story, he was very disappointed that none of those interviewees talked about democracy in China.

It's true that everyone is biased because of their different cultures, backgrounds and education. But trying to project one's own bias as a journalist into others is the same as attempting to cheat for a preconceived news story. This is against the basic principles of journalism.

Sent by dr | 2:27 PM ET | 05-24-2008

EL, your argument about the Iraq war after 911 dose not stand at all. 911 was not a natural disaster, but a tragety made by terrorists - so there WAS a group of people who commited the "horrendous crime" (even though some Americans made wrong judgement about Iraq's link with the terrorists). But the earthquake is a natural disaster, and even the most ridiculous AYs would not suggest that it was a "horrendous crime" by Americans or other westerners.
Yang, I am all for monetary donation and prayers for the quake victims and I am also agianst "using people's suffering for political agenda". I do not appreciate some of the AYs' actions (such as fist-pimping and harrassing McDonald in China) exactly beacuse they are "politiical" without showing respect to the victims. I would also suggest people to read your own comments earlier (that weterners' "horrendous crime" is worse than earthquake) to judge for themselves if you are not "political".

Sent by Sichuanese2 | 4:04 PM ET | 05-24-2008

To "dr". I was just passing along information. I really cannot believe Robert Siegel WAS trying to "bait" the Chinese young people into talking about democracy. I know from talking with my Chinese son-in-law that he/they are very sensitive about criticism of China. He feels we have our own cultural bias that prevents us from understanding their system, their way of life. My daughter has lived in China now for 4 years and though she is an American and a patriot in the truest sense of the word, she has a new understanding of this other culture and is not so critical of this other system, which is different, while having a more enlightened view of her own culture.

Sent by Sheri | 8:25 PM ET | 05-24-2008

Sichuanese2, please DO NOT confuse the nice people here. Even the most extreme AY's in China were not being anti-westener because of the earthquake. They were simply being anti-Richie-being-stingy, no matter Chinese or western entities making profit in China.

All the Chinese I know are grateful of any kind of condolence, be it words or donation, be it one dollar or millions.

Sent by leawood | 3:21 AM ET | 05-25-2008

Sichuanese2, I think you are very confused. First you said: "Genrally, after 911, I did not see Americans promoting resentment towards people or companies in other countries." Then, in your last message, you tried to distinguish "911 was not a natural disaster, but a tragety made by terrorists" to justify American war to Iraq. So what are you try to say? Does launching a war consider a complain, I will think this is the ultimate complain, or maybe it is complain but justified one in your mind. However, I am glad, not a lot people look at thing the way you look at, even majority American agreed Iraq war is a mistake and Both American and Iraq pay heavy price for it.

Sent by Rock Stotle | 4:39 AM ET | 05-25-2008

The one way to describe China is that it is a one billion and half disfunctional family....disfunctional or not...it is still a family...the nationalistic part is just an exaggerated fringe, and the Chinese in America (no matter how recent,) do not accurately represent any of "it." It might even be physical...in the genes...something speaks there of the long history of cause and effect that affects every one who has those genes, whether they admit it or not....in fact, I believe it is impossible to be complete without acknowledging that part...which does not just involve an affinity for Asian paraphenelia. It is something deeper...it is going inside and truly thinking like one, even for 6 months or a year, and in that time, completely cut out of Western influences. I was never in China until my adult years, and it was a crucial step to a higher level....it is a culture that allows all its members an easier passage to universality...as a Chinese, you just have to let it happen (in China,) instead of setting yourself aside into your "little me" coccon, bribed by a middle class salary stipend here in conformist West, drunk and shut up by outdated notions that "you should be lucky that we have such and such..., as if your life had a monetary price to it..." our brains were programmed for universality, it was always expansive...just go back and see for yourself.... there's a billion and a half that "perceive" the world like that.

Sent by Susan | 9:21 AM ET | 05-25-2008

Susan,

No one has to come to the conformist West and be "drunk and shut up by outdated notions...". That is the point of the Declaration of Independence--if you have an opinion, you can say something. If you do not want to be here, you don't have to. This should not be taken as an advertisement that I support the current US government policies---I do not. Please keep in mind, however, that in the US many of us believe that we do not have the extent of freedom or choice that other nations think we have. Votes are a function of numbers; it may be that the rest of the world does not realize this. If you do not like the result, but 51% of people do, there is not too much you can do. Reading these blogs, I rather resent the anti-West feelings read here. We here in the US feel for all those in China who have suffered a loss; although the numbers of lost are substantially larger, the sense of grief is akin to that we as a nation felt after 9/11. Lives were lost for a senseless reason. I wish everyone who has been affected by the earthquake the best outcome; the stories of loss on NPR have moved me to tears.

Sent by Nancy Andersen | 4:22 PM ET | 05-25-2008

I don't know what's worse, being led by a sole tyrant or the tyrany of the majority, which is what North America has become...it is a blind tyrany because it tells the majority of the people to shut up and be happy or leave...except this is not entirely true..is it? it's not even the 51% majority that rules here...it is the 0.01% that can control the 51% with their "we have it so good over here message...we are the most benign, caring, incapable of anything hurful people in the world," which the rest of the 51% repeat with strongest conviction because this message does something for their ego and not much else....it lets the truth be swept under the rug... just like any nationalism... any strong affirmation like this hides a darkness that points entirely to the opposite... Defensiveness only points to guilt...just ask China about Tibet. What about the well-meaning 49%? Pleeeeaze... it's like those Canadians one sees on the airports with the "I am not American" T-shirts... ...as if they don't benefit from American aggressive tactics abroad.

My thoughts are meant for Chinese Americans, a minority group that shuts up and think they have it better cause compared to their 100 dollar/month Chinese professionals, they can enjoy such creature conforts as middle class humdrum... just going to their work, nice house, nice car, just quietly progressing because they are told by immigrant parents and the media that this here is all they can aspire to and that life over yonder uncertain shores is nothing but scary...

Well...the truth is that happiness is in the unknown...particularly if it is your own unknown...something in our own back history...once a person "gets" this... it opens the door to becoming a true global denizen, not in a sentimental way, but in a heightened unattached sensitivity...that's all the rest of the world wants...they want to know your heart...not your sentiments...because like thoughts, sentiments clouds clear view, without which, the best intentions pave the way to hell.

Sent by Susan | 8:34 PM ET | 05-26-2008

There were many Chinese gave more than they had, even homeless were giving, maybe due to the massive coverage ever. My sister wanted to give all of her life saving and I had to stop her since she was 45 years old mom with 2 young kids in USA, not working. My mom, dad and brother each already gave more than their monthly income in China. For me here in US, sadly to say that I have never given back anything to China till this earthquake, instead I gave the most to my American church every week, too bad that my church did not even mention or gave a prayer to China's earthquake victims, only asking more from us to repair the church. We also have two local city papers, did not mention earthquake either, no, they do not report anything bigger than our own small city, yet I could read my son's each soccer game detail or trash can stolen on police log. Living over 20 years in America, meidal is free but we also have freedom to choose what to read, see, listen or believe. I was crying everyday reading online or watch PBS on Earthquake, my 3 kids were telling me not to watch them if they made me sad. See even my kids know how to handling the news in the America.

Sent by Mary | 4:08 PM ET | 05-28-2008

My comments are not meant to be a sign of defensiveness; they are not meant to sway anyone with my view. They are not meant to qualify anything. Things are what they are, here and in the rest of the world, and all we can do is try our best as individuals to work against (or for) those issues we feel need to be addressed, irrespective of where we are from or who we are. I posted here because at the root of it all: my heart, and my family's, is with those in pain, and in grief. These feelings surpass who you are, what country you come from. They only coincide with humanity.

Sent by Nancy | 9:26 PM ET | 05-28-2008

Why politicize a natural disaster like an earthquake? The point is to help the victims and not use this disaster as a political forum. Injured people deserve our help and we are obligated to help them. Charity is blind (or it should be).

Sent by Peter Klika | 2:15 AM ET | 05-29-2008

Agree with Peter Klika.

Sent by Wykoda | 4:00 PM ET | 05-29-2008