This brings up an intetesting paradox that I've been mulling over for some time now. It's probably safe to say that most adults (however you define that vague term) are most enamoured of the pop music they grew up with. Indeed, one of the hallmarks of maturity in our society is to develop, at best, a passive interest in more recent music, since it shows that one is able to compartmentalize fandom as youthful juvenilia. By extension, then, music fans are perceived as immature because they are still doing the things that their peers did some time ago. On the other hand, what does it say about folks whose tastes have not expanded beyond the music of their youth, and who show little curiousity in seeking out new aural experiences? Just askin'!

Sent by Michael | 3:29 PM ET | 08-25-2008

i think that that a love and anticipation of music is not necessarily linked to youthfullness, but rather a constant changing of all of our lives and a continual discovery of the self.. the new and the old music we listen to help us discover our identity and at the same time remind us of where we came from. none of us are who we once were, i'd be more afraid of not having anticipation and enthusiam, not for fear of being / feeling old, but for fear of being stuck in one phase of life.

Sent by jonnyshultz | 3:35 PM ET | 08-25-2008

Absolutely not! I find that the devotion of a fan more closely resembles that of staunch religious devotion than it does a state of perpetual adolesence. Think of William James' Varieties of Religious Experience, and the process of conversion: either a building up of feelings and experiences over time (me and Wilco) or an instantanious, white-light experience (me and Jandek).

Albums become sacred texts, as do biographies, documentaries, and even certain articles. Collecting rare vinyl, out of print something-or-others, and amassing newspaper and magazine clippings is a way of collecting relics.

Traveling to out-of-state concerts, touring 'with' the band, trying to find the Wilco loft or going to Bruce Springsteen's house qualify is pilgramages - ones that often tip fans into the neighborhood of demented to many an onlooker. People not only go, but often write about these experiences so that other fans can share and hopefully participate themselves.

Behaviors and emotional outbursts that seem juvenile and impulsive are generally fairly calculated, and usually emulated by a number of fans of that artist. Fans search for their own identity in their objects of devotion, either by projection ("I'm gay, therefore she MUST be, because she writes me so well!") or emulation (listening to the Minutemen or going vegan because their object of devotion did).

I absolutely love discussion the behaviors of fans, and I think that the truly devoted to resemble adolescents from time to time, but I think they far more closely share characteristics with extreme religious devotees.

Only the weirdest of 15 year-olds can be 'kind of' adolescent; the religion comparison provides a much better spectrum of behaviors and emotions to measure the devotion of fans and devotees.

Sent by ljc | 3:43 PM ET | 08-25-2008

This is probably my favorite post ever.

Without question, obsessive music fandom is by nature an immature pursuit. But you could say the same thing about obsesive following of anything: sports, movies, fashion, technology, day-to-day changes in political polls...whatever it is that makes life more bearable for you on a daily basis.

As a 36 year-old with a wife, 2 kids and a large mortgage, I've found myself retreating into music fandom even more now, almost as an escape from the pressures of adulthood. If we only focused on "mature" pursuits, we'd all be talking about health insurance, 401k growth and property taxes. Who the hell wants to do that?

Sent by Rick | 3:57 PM ET | 08-25-2008

It think there are two levels of thought presented in this post that seem to be rolled up into one, and for the sake of discussion I'd like to tease them out. The first involves the idea of a love of music being an indicator of youthfulness (and by extension it's negative side, immaturity), and the second speaks to the type of music one loves.

To the first point, I think that a love of anything is to at least some degree unreasonable; passion, devotion, fanatacism, and deep feelings on any subject, be it music, art, politics, or the latest scientific breakthrough in human hair removal technology is both a little irrational, and also a mark of a thoughtful, interesting person.

To the second point, Carrie's posts are mostly written (with a few notable exceptions) about youthful music. It shouldn't come as a shock that many of the musicians, themes, and attitudes discussed will involve new ideas, bohemian lifestyles, and a rejection of the status quo. Some of it is surely a little immature, but some of it is really great. In either case, I think there is a big difference between that and living irresponsibly or acting like the worst parts of being 15.

So I suppose what I am saying is, I'll continue to live as I do, discussing and listening to music incessantly, travelling to see my favorite shows, and making people mix tapes in the hope of changing their lives for the better. If I were to be labelled immature over this, I suppose my most poised, thoughtful reply would be, "I know you are, but what am I?"

Sent by Ryan | 4:02 PM ET | 08-25-2008

I actually have a friend, who has a friend, whos having marital troubles, because he spent a ton of extra money, and his vacation time from his job, to go trek across the east coast going to a handful of Bon Jovi shows... And I know alot of people do that with Pearl Jam too...

I would say music def keeps alot of us feeling young... and of course, being up on stage, makes alot of old rockers feel young...

and the last mix cd I just made?
grunge-rustic-blues... some Nirvana, Alice In Chains, Mad Season, Smashing Pumpkins, Pearl Jam, and Neil Young blues songs... aaaaaawwwwww and yes, i do stress over the order.

Sent by Kramer | 4:35 PM ET | 08-25-2008

Like anything in life, it requires balance. Is it a bad thing to feel giddy and excited to see a band? or get a new album? Probably not, but some can go overboard with it... I think it's essential to get back to the basics and experience the things that make us happy, such as screaming like a little girl when you finally get to see a band you adore for the first time in 5 years (hello, Radiohead last week...).

Sent by Mel | 5:24 PM ET | 08-25-2008

Carrie, .. I have an immature question and I trust your advice.

Should you ever make a mixtape for someone you haven't kissed yet?

Yes. But don't put any 'hidden messages' songs on there or include anything that might be misinterpreted as vastly different from where things are at between the two of you. Just put together a great mix that you wouldn't be embarrassed giving up even if you never get to the kissing part. After a few kisses is a different story. -CB

Sent by daniel | 5:45 PM ET | 08-25-2008

I have heard that when an addict goes back to using drugs after a period of sobriety that persons brain goes back to the level of emotional maturity that it was in during the time when that person was actively using drugs.

I suspect the same goes for music. I tend to listen to particular bands or styles of music in spurts. I absorb the music until I get sick of it and then move on to the next band or genre. Every once in a while I will revisit a particular artist and it usually puts me right back in the state of mind I was in at the time when I first listened to it.

And that is why I will never listen to a song by Bone Thugs N Harmony ever again.

Sent by Jonah | 7:14 PM ET | 08-25-2008

I think staying engaged in one or more forms of art either as spectator or performer necessitates that one maintain an intense interest in life that is often confused for youthfulness. In really great art everything is new. That's where I'm living.

Sent by Elizabeth | 7:22 PM ET | 08-25-2008

I'm in my 40's and one of the significant constants in my life is my love of music (all shapes and sizes) and my love of the human connection built between fan and fan/fan and artist during a live show - regardless of age we're all sharing a powerful emotional response (well - when it's on - of course once in a while, let's face it, the whole thing can suck)

I don't know if it keeps me young in the sense of wanting to be young again - more like free in spirit and it certainly keeps my body moving

I've hit the age where the kids are putting together their own bands now - I don't see it as a passing of the torch but rather more fire to the flame

I just hope that I'll still be rocking the rocking chair and that I'll have a least one gnarly, arthritic toe that can keep on tapping

I don't want to end up one day in the "blue hair section" but at the same time I don't see reason to have to give it up

we're a strange generation - we've done it all of our lives and I feel that I've matured along the way

I guess, as with everything, it's a question of balance - and as you get older priorities change but you should never have to give up something that invokes within you a great passion

Sent by sharon | 10:01 PM ET | 08-25-2008

I hope to be rocking in my rocking chair too. There are a lot of folks who hope to keep at it, including the musicians themselves.

This evening I bought tickets for two upcoming "reunion" shows in October, the Feelies and Wire. I love the Feelies, and I didn't want to miss the opportunity to see Wire. Do you have any opinions / comments about either bands? What about another one of my faves who have had recent shows, but none of them nearby my hometown - Pylon?

They're all still younger than Mick Jagger .....

Sent by Zoe | 1:03 AM ET | 08-26-2008

Oh no, of course not. My music obsession doesn't get in the way of anything. It's everything else that gets in the way of my music obsession. For example, now. Here I am studying (cramming) for a silly exam I have tomorrow about how glucose turns into pyruvate and the tricarboxylic acid cycle when I could be listening to some music, or playing my guitar. University is annoying like that.

Sent by NC | 4:33 AM ET | 08-26-2008

Great post, Carrie - I've given this some thought over the years, and have a few musings:

Society's attitude toward music fandom (at least the popular music we're talking about here) seems to reflect a difference in the values we attach to the "cerebral" and more "visceral" in nature. It's admirable and mature for a 40-year-old to eagerly await a world premiere opera, but juvenile and a bit ridiculous for her to rush out and buy the new Beck album or Pretty Things remaster, just as you're cultured if you're into Ozu but a mite too 40-year-old-virgin if your shelf is full of Hammer horror productions. Despite the across-the-board icon status of Dylan, Van Morrison and Springsteen, among others, and the general acknowledgment that their lyrics are often complex and literary and their music technically creative, most people seem to regard popular music as an "teenybopper" enthusiasm put away when adult responsibilities call and summoned from time to time when a nostalgic mood strikes, like a high school yearbook. That's nothing new - your grandfather may like to reminisce about dancing to Benny Goodman at the Palomar Ballroom, but he's unlikely to be searching incessantly for elusive airshots to add to a collection that fills up his den and half of the garage.

Perhaps this attitude is in part due to the function we assign to popular music, and what we expect of it. It can certainly be cerebral and technical, as any King Crimson or This Heat fan can testify. But it's primarily about emotion and intense passion, and most of us fall in love with it at a time when we're struggling to build friendships, searching for a place in the world, and learning about romantic passion and loss. The music we identify with becomes an expression of our complex desires and feelings, but most often - and crucially - it's experienced communally: we share new discoveries with friends, define ourselves as fans of one band or style and not of others, and find songs that become the theme of a love affair or a summer. As we get older, our lives become structured and, for the most part, our enthusiasms more prosaic - life just isn't as intense as it once was. Going to gigs and buying band T-shirts seems a vestige of a simpler but more passionate time before we "put away childish things."

If "music keeps us young," it's because those of us who love it recognize that being a responsible adult does not require us to give up the experience and expression of overt passion. Pumping my fist at a Mission of Burma show doesn't mean I can't pay my bills or that I form part of a mindless mob; it's an overt celebration of life in a culture that would prefer its 38-year-olds to be undemonstrative and conceal their strongest feelings (except, of course, in an "Oprah" appearance). I wouldn't care to relive some of the more acute anxieties and insecurities of adolescence, but the qualities I had then that I want most to retain, though tempered by experience, are an endless idealism, optimism, and the sense that there's always more in life to discover. Even at its most pessimistic, music elicits those qualities; its very making is itself a creative act of faith. It doesn't keep us young, but it keeps us youthful.

Sent by Darren | 5:57 AM ET | 08-26-2008

I don't think it is immaturity. I don't think that we would accuse someone whose passion is the visual arts of having an immature obsession. That said as a 37 year old with a wife and 2 kids, I do sometimes feel a little self conscious riding the bus to work, wearing a suit (which I do occasionally), and rocking out wearing my Skullcandy earbuds.

Sent by Dynamic Meter | 8:27 AM ET | 08-26-2008

I think the notion of "growing up" is so overrated in our culture, and yet we're constantly being fed with the idea of youth as the holy grail. I think having passion for anything gives you passion for life, and that makes you an energetic, exciting, vibrant person. I've met people in their 80s who have this passion and seem more interesting and exciting than people I know in their 30s who obsess only about property taxes and wine. I'm bothered by the idea that once you hit your late 30s, you're "supposed" to be boring and give up things like music, fun, craziness in the name of "maturity". I like to define maturity instead as really knowing yourself, knowing what you love, and engaging in that your whole life.

Sent by Rachel | 10:30 AM ET | 08-26-2008

In a sense, I think music can keep us young. In our state of mind, anyway. I've always associated music of my past with certain time periods. It's funny how a song can take me back to a particular place, or period of time in my life. Maybe that's why I'm a big fan of music from the late 80s/early 90s. It takes me away from all the bs of adulthood, even if only for a moment, and even if it's only in my head.

I think playing music can also keep us young too. I've played music since I was 20 (I'm 36 now). And sometimes I think to myself, "I'm really too old for this." But I keep doing it because, for one, it's one of the few creative outlets I have considering my 9-5 is rarely creative. But also, it really does help me to feel young(er) again. If I'm still able to bang the drums like I did when I was 20 then I can't really be that old, right?!?

Sent by Kim | 11:28 AM ET | 08-26-2008

I think my obsession with music is something beyond my control. I have always been this way and I'm pretty sure I will be this way until I am dead. Music is my happy place. I have never grown out of loving rock and roll. We all need a reason to be....and for me music is enough.

Sent by Jill Jones | 12:00 PM ET | 08-26-2008

I think there's a significant difference between "fandom" and "love of music." And it quite possibly has something to do with some kind of maturity.

One seems somehow more about status-seeking and ego-driven consumerism, while the other is less outward-directed and more authentic. I adore the work of a particular band, but I don't feel the need to have other people identify me with that. Only when I'm feeling particularly insecure do I find myself steering the conversation around to Things I Like WAY More Than You.

Sent by M-argo | 12:39 PM ET | 08-26-2008

Thanks for mentioning Scott Walker, whom I find is criminally overlooked.

Sent by Melvillain | 1:16 PM ET | 08-26-2008

Digging through dusty record bins or living in bars? Both drain my bank account however the harmonies on vinyl are much healthier than the buzz from the sudz.

great post... grow old, stay pretty.

Sent by david | 2:40 PM ET | 08-26-2008

Absolutely! Music keeps us young and like any other art form, can give you that body buzz, what I like to call 'goose-pimples' when it touches you on a deeper spiritual/emotional/physical level. That 'moment' when you are transported away from reality (or from your body) be it at a concert, cd-listening station or in your den checking vinyl, is what keeps you sane whole and ultimately young at heart.

My evidence to music's infinite and magical power is seeing my 18 month old son approach the stereo and start 'dancing' to "Love You" by Syd Barret (RIP). My son isn't a music collector or connoisseur like his papa (yet) and doesn't get all intellectual or critical about it. He somehow just knows and responds to good music when he hears it. How immature eh? ;)

So does that mean then that he is caught in some altered state? Maybe but it also implies that music transcends age and mental clap-trap and those that appreciate it for it's power to transform and delight will be forever rewarded.

Sent by Darcy Losell | 11:35 AM ET | 08-27-2008

i for sure lived through my days of fandom... where i waited outside for autographs, got to shows hours early to wait in line and be in front with my camera taking hundreds of photos (with film, predigital days). or spent my time reading about musicians personal lives online and in magazine, clipping and printing their photos to pin to my wall. This I have outgrown for sure - and i dont think it makes me less youthful, just less reliant on the objects and experiences i think i need to shape me. while i still have a few nice autographed posters hanging in my room, and a drawer full of band tshirts... my love for the music is now only that - for the music. i think the fandom has a lot less to do with the music, and the people/bands you become obsessed with; and a lot more to do with a lack of identity and need to cling to something you feel defines you. hopefully as people become older you can ditch your concert uniform, get there when the band starts, and leave the camera and sharpies at home. just enjoy the music.

Sent by tanya | 12:17 PM ET | 08-27-2008

I've been thinking a lot recently about what adulthood means, both the way I was thought to think of it and the way I want to define it for myself, so this piece really struck a chord for me.

There are a lot of unspoken assumptions in these questions about involvement in music and its correlation to youth and youthfulness. A lot of these assumptions are becoming obviously outdated, but there aren't any clear new standards to put in their place. Some are just a matter of massive trends. It's no longer customary for people to stop listening to new music etc. when they reach a certain age or start a family or some such thing. But it also relates to the overlap between groups of people who never stop caring a lot about music and people who for other reasons don't fit the usual mold of what adulthood is supposed to mean, or used to mean at one time. Judith Halberstam writes in In a Queer Time and Space about how queer ways of living defy expected timelines and lend themselves to other ways of "not acting your age," including involvement in art and music. (Not that some queer people don't end up following a pretty "normal" timeline in their own way, of course.) I thought of her when I was reading your piece. I also thought about a book I've been reading called Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience. Basically, it's a scholarly exploration of happy, fulfilling experiences and how they tend to come about. What the argument boils down to (so far, at least) is that while we may enjoy rest, lazy recreation, etc., the experiences that mean the most to us are those that challenge us and force us to grow as people in some way. The author, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, writes about how children's acquisition of new skills provides them with immense satisfaction, but that as adults we're less motivated to continue to acquire skills and gain novel experiences even though these are often the surest paths to contentment. I would connect this to engagement with new music. Sure, there are some people who cling to an involvement in music in a dysfunctional way, not really engaging where it counts. They seem to still be into music the way they were at a younger age, but they're not trying new things anymore. But often, being into music at an older age means that you're still making the most of the mind-expanding possibilities of exposing yourself to new music. To say nothing of the possibilities of continuing to evolve in your playing and writing as a musician and other related practices.
Making these things a priority instead of the things that are supposed to be important to a "real" adult may not please one's parents most of the time, but I think they represent a very vital, real, and growing alternative to conventional notions of adulthood. An alternative that places sources of real happiness and engagement with life in a more important position than supposedly gratifying things (like having the "right" house, job, car, etc.) that don't actually make people very happy.

I don't know if this is necessarily some kind of trend, or if it's just something I'm becoming more and more aware of as I reach a certain point in my life and stop settling for being defined by other people as being in some kind of state of arrested development. When I accepted the explanation I was putting off adulthood, I felt as though I was. I think I imagined that one day I'd just feel a sudden pull towards being an old-fashioned grownup, but that never happened, and I doubt it ever will. Now I'm looking around at the life I've built and realizing I'm going to want to stick with it for the foreseeable future, especially the parts that make me feel like a kid in that awesome, mind-expanding way. The main thing I want to change is just to start taking myself seriously and stop living as though I'm waiting for my real, adult life to begin. Simply looking at my life as something I've chosen and will stick with if it suits me regardless of whether it seems adolescent to the casual observer makes a big difference in how I feel. You could make the argument that this is somehow subversive but that's secondary--the main thing is that it makes me feel happier. But maybe that is subversive in and of itself, I don't know.

Sent by susan | 3:16 PM ET | 08-27-2008

This reminds me of an old argument I had with a music writer who insisted that rock was music of "rebellion, of "the young" and therefore anyone old shouldn't be onstage. But I pointed out that "the young" are mostly rebelling "just for now", and few of them really mean it. To me, rebellion only gets exciting once it's over 30 - who was more terrifyingly on the edge than William Burroughs at 80? Today, most of our most inveterate punks are somewhere in suburbs, as far from rebellion and politics as they are from the city. Fact is, rock only gets really exciting around 40 -- up until then, it's usually just "a phase." I'll take a 40-something's revolution over teenage rebellion any day.

or Sez me.

Sent by Dudley Saunders | 5:46 PM ET | 08-29-2008

I am someone who loves music, and I fear that any musical abilities I may have had peaked at the age of 6 when I could hit a "Hi-C" on command. Though no one told me why they wanted me to pierce the air. Since 6 I have grown into an adult, which is what everyone calls a twenty-three year old. This has left me doubtful of any love I have felt for art; if I had any talent at all, let alone integrity? If you can support a band/artist/author who executes their work with confidence and integrity- why not? It's just about thinking of your artists communities and nourishing them so they don't rot away. In short, it's not the social responsibility of feeding the artist I so anticipate when I wake up, it's definetly my morning coffee.
Admittedly, that quip was not called for.

Sent by Katharine H | 10:35 PM ET | 09-01-2008