Women talk wayyy more than men in our office... Of course, women outnumber the men here by more than 5-to-1 (and I'm a relatively quiet guy, so it's up to Neal to pull the verbal weight around here), but who wants to let facts get in the way of an age-old stereotype? A group of scientists apparently did. They came out with the study showing that men talk just as much as women. But, does counting average number of words spoken really tell the whole story? Deborah Tannen isn't so sure. It's all in the way we use words, and the situations that we use words, she says. Research shows that men tend to talk more in public settings, and meetings, but less in more personal conversations. On the flip side, women tend to talk more with other women, and will connect more personally through words. "Talk is the glue that holds a relationship together," as Tannen says. That's why men might share hilarious stories with the guys in the office, but when your wife asks how your day was you'll just say, "fine." (A hint for guys from Tannen: that one-word answer is seen as a snub, not a suitable response.) Here's the bottom line: we want to know who talks more in your experience... men or women? And to make sure Neal doesn't run out of things to say, we'll have Deborah Tannen and Ask Amy's Amy Dickinson on to talk about it.
Blog of the Nation
I believe that the recent study was done on college students. Correct? I do believe that as men enter the work force their conversations go down. This may have a lot to do with how much talking they have to do at work. Women, as your guest suggests, tend to talk about more personal things.
Reconsider the narrow viewpoint of the US. Ask women in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Libya, Algeria or Palestine whether women express more words than men. First, they need to reach the stage of receiving the right to open their mouths at all.
A counselor giving marriage advice told me that when couples get stressed, the verbal part of a woman's brain speeds up, whereas the man's part shuts down. So, the men feels outgunned and attacked on an uneven ground. This explains why women don't think men talk enough. Men don't talk around women when they are stressed by everything the woman is saying about her day. This explains the "how was your day" scenario. To avoid this, men and women could learn how to help each other relax at the end of the day. I am a female and have always been quick to speak up in class, so some of these generalizations don't apply to me.
As to the question, do men or women talk more....I don't know if this is a scientific observation or not, but at the last two music festivals that I have attended, I had to listen through some very chatty MEN!
I am curious, with all these studies hapenning, what is the outcome they are searching for; not in results but in conclusions? In otherwords, why does it matter who talks more?
I think it is fair to say that Men devalue what women and also assume that if women are not talking that they do not having any thoughts.
Do women devalue what men say to the same degree?
We're missing half the issue here. Just as important in communications, and arguably more important is the skill of listening which completes the gap in the cycle that is communicating. In this I gotta say the women that I have known tend to be better listeners than men.
Stereotypes are usually stereotypes for a reason, but it always annoys me when people are suprised when they run across the exception - and there's always an exception. For example, I am laconic and my good friend Josh talks just to hear the sound of his own voice. We often joke that we have switched "roles".
I find most women talk more and it take them longer to get to the bottom line. They just use more words to convey the same message. But to be fair there are some men that are just as wordy.
I think it has quite a bit to do with the level of extroversion of a person. There have been times when I get home from a long day and I have literally asked my husband to please stop talking... I can't take in another word from anyone. I'm done.
Deborah Tannen mentioned the research on single-sex schools. Can you point me to a good place to find a review of this research - in specific in relation to boys education.
Thank you.
My husband talks more than any person I know. In second place is his friend - a man. I have to raise my hand to get them to pause so that I can get a word in.
This is responding the the caller, Paul. Women talk more about relationships. They may talk about anything just to feel close to someone, just to share their thoughts and feelings so they both get on the same wavelength. Women are more oriented toward internal bonding. Men may feel this kind of talking is purposeless, because they tend to be more externally oriented. They talk more about sports and gadgets. You'll notice many women also feel talk about sports is purposeless. I feel in this age of rising female power, women should be open to understanding what is important to men. Men have been raised based on developing a survival dependency on a woman (their mother). So, they can easily feel overpowered by women. Since their make-up is different, they don't entirely understand women, so feeling so overpowered by something unknown can be frightening. Women should be sensitive to this. We should all try to help each other feel good and relaxed. This is good for everyone.
I think many girls don't speak up in class because they have learned that being demure and not challenging people is a way to be liked and to bond. Maybe I wasn't liked that much from the start anyway, so this didn't stop me. I had to learn to be very good at things to survive on my own.
In a social setting I find men want to impart their knowledge to others and women want to elicit information about others. At the end of the evening my husband can not tell me anything about the people he has "talked" to. I on the other hand can share a lot about those I met.
I have observed that women use more words(than men do)when expressing themselves,which makes men impatient and feeds the notion that we talk more than men!
Many times, my conversations with my male partner, when he's "communicating" are about his work and the challenges of the day. As a woman, I find it challenging to pay attention, because I am more interested in how he feels, which I know is NOT typically a male's priority to share!!
Wish the guests would address the question of whether men reflexively dismiss whatever women say simply because they are women, like the boys in the classroom who were certain that the girls were dominating when the teacher began calling on both equally. There is something in there underlying all of this discussion that it's not just women's speech that doesn't matter, it's women's thoughts and women themselves. Don't the board meeting anecdotes demonstrate this?
And if that's not clear enough, I suggest you monitor governmental bodies at the state and local level where they are far less conditioned than Congress is to at least pretend that the women's words matter as much as the men's.
One final comment, it is terribly unfortunate that most of the discussion today was based on the presumption that women talk mainly about relationships and men talk mainly about other things. That's not my personal experience, especially outside the home, perhaps mainly because I work in a male dominated arena. Clearly, it's easier to discuss these issues in terms of black and white, but it isn't as helpful.
For the record, I am a woman who is not at all phone talker.
Is there any research suggesting if the gender difference is nature or nurture?
I do some communications training with married couples. Their differences show up readily, but their acceptance of and validation of those differences seldom shows up. Why is it so hard for both sexes to accept the differences?
I teach a Group Dynamics course at a University. I assign 'celebrities' to the students and they have to 'become' that person for an in-class interview. Dr. Tannen has been a favorite celebrity, and the information that the students 'root out' regarding the infamous doctor seem to energize the speaker(s). They learn that there is gender speak, and gender reactions to that speech; and it's ok to be who you are-woman or man. Thank you Dr. Tannen, you have opened the eyes and more importantly the ears of many!
As a woman who works in high tech and primarily with men, I totally agree that the context dictates how much people speak. These men take great pride in talking about subjects about which they have great passion or knowledge. The common themes are that the subjects are quantifyable (as in they involve stats) or experiences that show achievement/accomplishment. When I talk with one of these same fellows one-on-one, the subject range is broader.
On the other hand, this experience has altered my communication style in that I tend to have less patience for conversations that "are about nothing", which I do understand are really about connection, not subject matter.
I certainly experienced exactly what your guests are talking about as I was in school. I often got lectured by teachers to "Let someone else have a chance" and got the cold shoulder from other students for being quick to raise my hand and not wanting to wait for boys to lead the way in math and science.
What's sad... it was still the case in graduate school. The professors were very encouraging but the other students acted like I was doing something wrong by actually discussing the question asked rather than sitting there in uncomfortable silence like everyone else or offering monosyllabic answers. The professors were TRYING to get a dialogue and the students were trying to find 'the answer' the prof. was looking for.
The conclusions that single sex education benefits girls, that boys are the first to ask questions and that girls are reticent to make comments in class, etc. presume a monolithic 'type' - girls and boys. What about types within groups as in the Meyer-Briggs personality type. IO'm an INFP on that scale and feel I would have benefited, as a male, from being away from the aggreessive type generally associated with boys.
I am a professional woman who was widowed at 50. I started dating at 53 and discovered that on dates, the men talked almost all the time. After two dates, if a man didn't ask me something about myself, I just wrote him off.
I was struck by how egocentric the vast majority of men were--certainly in this situation.
I married the guy who asked me about myself on the first date!
May I add my daughter's and my experience with your topic today? I heard of the results of this study several years ago & asked my daughter about her experience in mixed-gender classes throughout school. She said that, even though she did not speak very often, she was listening & learning. She's now a PhD in immunology & a patent agent in a national law firm.
I work with an individual who will ask a question, and then when I attempt to explain and respond, this person will start to interupt me before I'm finished and will say, "Your not listening to what I'm saying", when in fact, it just isn't what is wanting to be heard!
As a male, I listen for ACTIONABLE data. I want to spend my time/efforts "fixing" the problem, not the blame.
I want: "Just the facts, Mam".
After listening to the topic of how men talk just a s much as women, I was somewhat irritated by the gentleman who called and said that the reason men may talk more is because they have something to say versus women who don't have anything to say. This reminds me of a humorus story I just received today that I truly feel can sum the study up.
Relatives gathered in the waiting room, where their family member lay gravely ill. Finally, the doctor came in looking tired and somber. "I'm afraid I'm the bearer of bad news," he said as he surveyed the worried faces. "The only hope left for your loved one at this time is a brain transplant. It's an experimental procedure, very risky but it is the only hope. Insurance will cover the procedure, but you will have to pay for the brain yourselves."
The family members sat silent as they absorbed the news. After a great length of time, someone asked, "Well, how much does a brain cost?" The doctor quickly responded, "$5,000 for a male brain, and $200 for a female brain."
The moment turned awkward. Men in the room tried not to smile, avoiding eye contact with the women, but some actually smirked. "Why is the male brain so much more?"
The doctor smiled at the childish innocence and explained to the entire group, "It's just standard pricing procedure. We have to mark down the price of the female brains, because they've actually been used."
Touche'
Our son is a 17 senior in high school. This summer he attended a Mini-Medical School Summer Camp at the University of Missouri. Most of the attendees were female. Not certain I would agree that girls are being over looked. Our 13 year old neice certainly does not keep quiet either in school science class or when dealing with her older brother or her father. When I taught school I always made it a point to call on female students and if I got the line "I don't know" I would tell them I would be back and before the end of class I was. My students learned that "I don't know" was not an acceptable answer.
Men seem to talk about their accomplishments and problem solve based on their own personalities and habits. Men give advice by telling others what they would do themselves. They say things like "You just need to..." Women seem to talk about interactive experiences and problem solve by seeking ways to understand the others' personality. They say things like "You seem to be the kind of person who...")
Did I hear Deborah Tannen correctly?
Women in business meetings think men say whatever come into their heads whereas women don't say anything unless they have made up their minds.
Business meetings are generally discussions - thinking on one's feet. People are expected to say whatever come into their heads.
It's funny that, in social situations, women respond quite differently and talk for the sake of talking to reach a satisfied feeling rather than to reach a conclusion.
Regards,
Mark Filipak ("FILL-ah-pack")
I think this issue has at least two additional aspects not yet mentioned, one involving the biology aspect of gender, and the other personality traits of introversion and extraversion. We know from brain biology that women have a larger corpus callosum, the part of the brain that connects both left and right sides of the brain, enhancing women's verbal facility, while men are more visually spatially oriented. At the same time, verbal communication can also be affected by whether a man or a woman is an introvert or extroverts. Extroverts process their thinking out loud, while introverts need to work through a logical thought process internally before sharing their thoughts. Whether a woman or man is introverted or extroverted can affect the basic biological differences between genders as well.
I am a Male Health Educator and I have noticed that there are ecceptions to every rule. I have known plenty of men who could talk and ear off and women who it was like pulling teeth to get them to say anything. But one of Debra Tanners (sp) books that I read a long time ago stated that women and men talk/communicate differently and that we as men need to learn how to communicate more effectively with the women in our lives either at work or at home.
Can anything be gained by putting more emphasis on the selection process, and learning how to select good mates.
It's my impression that birth order has more of an impact than gender on one's nature to be talkative! Those born first talk -a lot- and those born second or later, are quieter.
Enjoying your show, as always.
I wish someone would have brought up the work of Dale Spender, who noted that the stereotype that women talk more than men persists NOT because they actually do when anyone measures their utterances. Rather, the stereotype (prejudice?) exists because women are measured against *silence*: if silence is supposed to be appropriate for women, then any utterances they make will seem excessive. Spender did this research in the 70s.
To what degree do you think the gender difference is driven by our mammalian brains, just beneath the veneer of human intelligence, to respond to an alpha-authority figure? The females of our simian species seems to communicate more collaboratively; the males tend to bow to a heirarchy.
I think quantity of words is not the end of the analysis. i think there are many things that affect the discourse between men and women. and Power is key. i think a critical discourse analysis of the relations between the people talking, how they are using their words, their stance with respect to one another, the patterns that emerge and so on. that's what counts. my husband, it seems at times, barely talks. but, he also barely listens. he assumes that what i say is blah, blah, blah...until he hears somehting interesting. then he perks up and pays attention. he deliberately filters what he hears and feels no shame in doing it. he assumes that i just want to fill the air with words. i do admit to thinking out loud a lot more than he does. it helps me sort things out, but it's the feedback in thinking outloud that helps as well. sort of collaborative thinking. but he is highly selective about what he wants to talk about. if i repeat stories i've told before, he cuts me off. if he repeats them (even if it's within 24 hours), that's ok. we have nearly 18 years difference, he's older. just a note for context: we are both lawyers. though i do not practice anymore. he is 18 years older than i am. i am back in grad school, a doctoral candidate in a language, reading, and culture in education program (i've read Tannen's work, happily). my husband claims that if i weren't a lawyer, we couldn't be married because he would not be able to understand my discourse (a word he has learned over the years as it is part of the methods of analysis i use in field research...although sometimes i feel as though the field research begins at home). when he needs me to shift to legal speak, it's like having a translation, and at least i can do that. the rest of it is amusing or just irrelevant. when we do have a give-and-take conversation, it's great. not sure we can draw lines along gender alone. i think we need to have a multi-faceted analysis. But I do enjoy Deborah Tannen's work (one of my favorites is a chapter in framing discousre on a dinner conversation among friends; it has helped me to explain the mis-connects in conversations with pepole from out west; i'm from NY. good show today). thank you.
I wonder if women develop a larger corpus callosum because, as infants, they develop a stronger connection to other people, because, being female, they feel more at one with their mother, also a female. This means they connect more from the inside. Developing more visual spatial abilities, as men do, is important when connecting from the outside -- for example, being able to see if a person approaching is the mother or not -- being able to keep track of the mother visually if she walks away. Males may feel more distant from mothers because they are biologically different, yet, the female is still very important to them. So, they view them more from a distance, from the outside. Could these biological differences in the way the brain connects develop because of the environment -- because of whether a male or female at birth is dependent for survival on someone of the same or opposite sex?
Tupac Resurection, about Tupac Shakkur, the best rapper of all time. It showed how trouble and how bright he was at the same time. The depth of his lyrics is Shakespearian and so xrated at the same time.
Disclaimer: my psychodynamic ideas about a male's response to a mother (expressed in my previous post) are just my general theory, not intended to apply to any specific person. If men are afraid of women as "the unknown" that survival from birth depended on, men are still culturally discouraged from feeling fear, so for this reason, they can tense up around women and feel angry toward them. This may be why they feel threatened when women start to speak up equally in class. The way to prevent this, if my theory is correct, is for mothers to try very sensitively to overpower male babies and children as little as possible. Some mothers feel justified in overpowering and controlling children, but I think this can lead to anger issues in children when they grow up. Again, this is just a general theory. I find it interesting there's so much discussion on this topic. We used to have spirit wars at high school rallies, where each side of the gym tried to yell loudest. There was no competition more fierce than when we made it a battle of the sexes. I was astounded by the power of that conflict.
This discussion was disturbingly sexist, meaning sexist against men.
When I was in grade school in the early 60's, there was no doubt who the smartest, most contributing members of the class were - the girls. The girls were very intimidating to the boys. They got better grades and were far more conversant with the teachers.
And to say that girls would have a greater reason to tell a secret about a popular girl in order to show their closeness to that girl?? And a boy wouldn't? Have you ever heard of a boy making up a secret about a popular girl to give the impression that they are close to her? No imiagine that they know a real secret.
I think that going to a single sex school has severely affected the author's judgement about how boys and girls interact in school. While I agreed with maybe a slight majority of the discussion, the rest was surprisingly uninformed.
I agree with what Jerri Hersch posted:
"I am a professional woman who was widowed at 50. I started dating at 53 and discovered that on dates, the men talked almost all the time. After two dates, if a man didn't ask me something about myself, I just wrote him off....
Sent by Jerri Hirsch | 2:31 PM ET | 08-09-2007
My dating experiences are similar to Jerri's. I chalked it up to my being a newspaper reporter, where asking people questions is an ingrained habit.
When I was 50, I divorced and began dating. I'm still puzzled by the men, my husband included, who virtually never ask me questions about myself.
The conversations my husband and I have encompass many topics, including our thoughts and feelings about philosophical, political and practical matters.
Still, he never exhibits any curiosity about my past history and experiences.
Is this the height of egocentric or is there something cultural going on here?
On the other hand, I am curious about who he is and who he was before I met him and often ask him questions about himself.
I attended co-ed schools until college. On a fluke, I got into and currently attend a single-sex college. Now, I am on my first internship at a company that is almost 80% men and I hold my own more than the other female interns. I was comfortable here right away and found myself taking more chances than my other female counterparts. My college also has a higher percentage of women graduating with degrees in the hard sciences than the larger universities in the area. Women in leadership at my single-sex college is emphasized, where as at some co-ed schools, women are not able to let their voice be heard, let alone find it.
Having worked in construction with ALL men and I, being the only woman on the job site, can tell you one thing. Working in a Dilbert Cubicle and talking over the water cooler is NOT the same as working on a construction site. The language tends to be peppered a little more with slang and the men do not really care who they offend....including me. There is no language bonding unit on a construction site. You must have a no-nonsense attitude about your language and work and this includes touchy feely stuff. I had one construction guy tell me to"Stifle Edith" which pretty much puts this Archie Bunker attitude into perspective. These types of men abound in the "non-Dilbert cubicle dwelling world." Maybe in water cooler land too. I don't know. Mainly though I got the instant impression that BLAH BLAH BLAH attitude was generally and naturally given to a woman because she was doing the talking. Thank goodness I like sports and football or else there would have not been any bonding language at all. And if men do tend to throw out more numbers in their talk...i.e. taking measurements is a very important skill in the construction industry, not just regulated to nice polite and erudite water cooler land.
So many times I have to "over talk" when I dont want to, just to make myself understood...sheesh ! Its exhausting being the consciousness for the relationship...cus if youre not talking or asking questions..how do you know the relationship is going well? Otherwise please dont be surprised when you wake up and shes gone. Responsibility entails communication, the one that does the most is the leader.
i love this topic...and speaking of speaking...my favorite thing to hear is men saying that women are so difficult to figure out. we play "games" and try to confuse them, we can "never make up our minds". i chuckle, because i tell my boyfriend exactly what it want, flowers are nice once in a while, i really love this perfume, my birthday is coming up, do you believe what so and so did...thats dispicable. in the "meaningless" conversation that apparenlty falls out of my face that he is too busy to listen to, i give him all the answers. all these years later and he still doesnt catch on..eventhough i have let him in on this little bit of information.
Trying to get someone to listen to something in which he/she has little or no interest is a waste of time. What is glue for one is like grease for the other. I think this is less of a problem the closer the two partners are in terms of intelligence, education, and interest in learning about the world around them. The broader the spectrum of common ground (i.e. bonding with new and different glues) the stronger the base to bring together and hold the relationship. This, in contrast to the polarized, mutually foreign forces at work now. We've been selecting the wrong partners, and haven't been willing to broaden that base.
I'm a woman, and I remember that in high school, the boys took all kinds of liberties of expression that girls did not. The girl who spoke up with any regularity was exceptional, and I myself often stifled my questions. Many of these quiet girls also went on to attend Berekley, Stanford, UCLA or the like.
As an undergrad, I would often be the most talkative in class. My professors, men and women alike, seemed to appreciate my contributions. I also remember my female classmates contributing to discussions freely and with thoughtful remarks and questions. However, as soon as we left the classroom, I would be interrupted and ignored by my male classmates, and it was not unusual for one to repeat my ideas several minutes later in the course of a conversation, oblivious that it had already been said.
Now, having graduated, I find myself working under a female boss, and largely with coworkers who do not have university degrees. Interestingly, most of these women say absolutely nothing in meetings, regardless of rank or how competant I know them to be.
Perhaps I would encourage my daughter to attend a single-sex university--the women I know who have done so say only very good things about the experience--but I suspect that the higher the level of education of all individuals in a group, the more egalitarian the communication will be.
To many this info is such "old news" that they assume they already know and use it. Obviously, differences exist from knowing to actively practicing, so even among those who assume this info is valid, these social dynamics still go on persistently. Turns out the ability to change one's own style of speaking is perhaps one of the most difficult habits to revise - even when you are convinced you want to do so and know what these specific assumptions are. There is also a cost: being a woman and having adopted many "male" speaking styles after reading Tannen's books, I often get snubbed and completely misunderstood by women who assign me negative motives.
I see a need for providing multiple workable strategies to address the rift between "Talkers" and "Listeners." It's been my experience that, mainly, the "male" talkers do want to hear and consider "womanly" listener's contributions, but need more examples, avenues and social strategies to draw out these contributions on a continuing basis. Generally "talkers" are not practiced at "sifting" for content. "Listeners" are better at compensating for time of arrival of priority information. Because other women tend to punish and men will tend to challenge any woman who insists on "equal authority," it seems to work better for the "talkers" to specifically invite the participation of "listeners." Generally, we could use more models for natural authority to be wisely and more effectively used.
I can guarantee that if you work with men they will talk over you if they outrank you or are equal to you. We have the memory for details (women), and they will look to us, when they forget but not give us credit. Very ego centered. A women to succeed must speak up, back and over them while being able to pull out when they continue to talk non stop although we are supposed to function as a team. Yah right. I don't need a survey. I am a business women in education information systems for 18 years and I can tell you how it is.
Comments
Please note that all comments must adhere to the NPR.org discussion rules and terms of use. See also the Community FAQ.
You must be logged in to leave a comment. Login | Register
More information needed to participate in the NPR online community.. Add this information