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A Puerto Rican Bill Cosby

'One Nation, One Standard'

In his new book, One Nation, One Standard, Herman Badillo claims that Hispanics don't put the same emphasis on education as other American immigrants.

Do you remember the dustup about three years ago when Bill Cosby spoke at a dinner commemorating the anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education case? That was the case that ended legal segregation of the schools, and Bill Cosby was, shall we say, disappointed with the way some members of the black community had risen to the opportunity in the years since the decision. He was a lot more blunt that I am being; let's just say there's been a lively discussion of the merits of his argument in the three years since -- which is ongoing, by the way.

Mr. Cosby has traveled all over the country, meeting in community forums with people who want to talk about his view that too many black folks have become so fixated on racism they aren't doing what they can to improve their communities, educate their children and live up to the promise of America. These sessions --I covered one for ABC's Nightline -- are heartrending, exhausting and uplifting at the same time. Heartrending because these people are in so much pain; they are terrified and furious about what they see happening in their communities with kids who seem out of control and parents who won't take control. They're exhausting because they go on for hours and sometimes the anger is very raw. There's a lot of finger pointing.

But then there's an uplifting side because, while Cosby does speak, he also goes out of his way to showcase people from each community who have done something remarkable -- overcome great odds to get an education, started a mentoring program, etc. At the session I attended, most people came because they agreed with Cosby and wanted to tell him and wanted some inspiration. Some came because they found his message offensive. One scholar calls Cosby's meetings the "blame the poor tour" and wrote an entire book just to rebut him. The debate continues.

Now comes a book by a public figure who may not be a household name all over the country but who is a giant in New York politics. His name is Herman Badillo and the book is called One Nation, One Standard. Badillo was the first Puerto Rican-born U.S. congressman. His own story is nothing short of remarkable. He was orphaned as a small boy, came to the mainland to live with relatives at the age of 11 (speaking not a word of English), and went on to become a lawyer, a congressman, a mayoral candidate and the chairman of the board of one of the largest public university systems in the country.

Badillo was one of the main architects of bilingual education law; the principal sponsor of the Bilingual Education Act of 1974.

But now he says he was wrong -- a rare admission for most of us! When I read the book, I knew I wanted to talk to Badillo, in part because the book reminded me so much of the debate Bill Cosby set off. Only this time, the subject is the Hispanic community.

In today's segment (audio), we take a traditional NPR-ish approach to a topic like this: A famous person writes a book and we talk with him about it. But we thought Badillo's argument was such that he needed the floor to himself to discuss it. Our question to you is: Is this approach, with one subject, satisfying? Or did you find yourself hungering for more of a debate? Let us know.

 

Comments (Send a comment)

Interesting topic, but as for comments on the format I fully support the idea of a single guest per show. While it is extremely important in this "age of divisiveness" that we see mutiple sides to a story and how they relate, I would put the burden on the show to have mutiple episodes on the same topic rather than cut the dialogue of an intellactual guest down to a sound-bite. I look to NPR to give me complete and controversial coverage on topics that traditional news sources will not give fair time to. So I support your effort, but ask that as host you either ask well-informed questions that challange the viewpoint of the guest, or that you have a seperate episode dedicated to an opposing viewpoint. Thank you!

Sent by Micheal | 11:42 AM ET | 01-22-2007

I did like having the whole time for just him. If there is debate it seems fragmented and laking in depth. I think depth is great.

Thank you

Sent by Joel D. Goodwin | 2:09 PM ET | 01-22-2007

I liked how the interview was quarantined from any other discussion as it allowed Badillo to make his case. However, I would to like hear representatives of the Hispanic immigrant community respond to Badillo's arguments. Michel, you could ask these other guests about the schedule of the typical hard working immigrant. If they had the time to attend a PTA meeting, for example, would they? If so, what is preventing them from doing so? Is it simply scheduling or does culture factor in? What can I do? Mentor a Hispanic youth through a program like Big Brothers Big Sisters?

Sent by Steve Petersen | 5:00 PM ET | 01-22-2007

C'est nepas Espanol, what about us with French Canadien Heritage?

Sent by Jim Richard | 5:02 PM ET | 01-22-2007

I would have liked to have heard from someone directly impacted by this story (A Puerto Rican Bill Cosby)and had their views - for better or for worse - part of the interview.

Sent by Scott Fraser | 5:03 PM ET | 01-22-2007

I'd have preferred more debate, but I thought it was great that Mr. Badillo had a full ten minutes to flesh out his views. Perhaps a worthwhile format would be to have him on, leave a week for people to email post blog comments, etc., then have on an opposing view, leave another week, then finally, have them both on to debate, with questions culled from the comments you've received over the previous two weeks. It would require a little more commitment from listeners to see, that is hear, the whole thing through, but I think it would make for a much more meaningful debate. Also, the podcast medium, which will make up a large and probably increasing fraction of your listener base, lends itself to consistent listening better than scheduled radio does.

Sent by Isaac | 5:05 PM ET | 01-22-2007

love it.

Sent by Victor Manuel Mendez | 5:09 PM ET | 01-22-2007

I really enjoyed this segment. It would have suffered if it was shorter or included debate. However, since the debate was lacking, the interviewer could have asked some tougher questions.
I applaud the fact that the main focus was not African-American, but the issue was something that most Americans would be interested in.

I felt like the interview could have been a bit more focused with more pointed questions.

Sent by Tora Smulders-Srinivasan | 5:35 PM ET | 01-22-2007

Loved the format. Would first rather hear Mr. Badillos position - without interruption - before we put other views into the mix. By the way, I am a 58 year old white female - liberal to the core. I absolutely do agree with both Mr. Badillo and Mr. Cosby and would extend the same charge to ALL communities. When families, schools, social situations - life in general is dysfunctional WE ALL suffer and that suffering goes on for generations. Let the teachers teach - encourage creativity in the schools from the Administration to the teachers to the students. Freedom to teach! Freedom to learn! Parents - come on - if "Janey or Johnny" has a chance, it'll be because of you!!! What a great feeling when everyone works together! Tear down the barriers! Get rid of those stupid tests! Let the teachers express themselves! Let the students express themselves! Let the parents express themselves! Its all good. Thanks.

Sent by Terry Lynn Hale | 5:37 PM ET | 01-22-2007

I fully endorse giving the entire segment to Badillo. I am fed up with the debate format. Take global warming for example (I realize this is an imperfect analogy). Reputable scientists have recognized global warming for decades giving another point of view implies that there is a 50-50 balance. Further, this is clearly an opinion piece and needs no counter argument. (Just as I tell my husband, this is my opinion and I have a right to it, so stop arguing). To me, he and Cosby are not "blaming the victim", but moving from victimization to empowerment. Bravo!

Sent by Betty Francis | 5:42 PM ET | 01-22-2007

This is an important topic to discuss, however I was frustrated in real life application. I have worked with Latin elementary and high school students. I found that many of them are working hard and studying, but they do not have opportunities and access to benefits other students have because they are not citizens.

I believe that Latins value education, however the Latin immigrants have different values of success. I for one am a first generation American from a Salvadorian family who grew up in Northern Virginia. I am finishing my masters degree in Vancouver, BC at Regent College. My sister has done her masters in social work at George Mason U. However, both of us were taught that we look out for the good of others first. So our choices in education have always been for the greater good and not for self advancement. I find Badillo's interview very discouraging because he makes it sound like we Latinos want to stay poor and uneducated. However, I find that incongruent with the situations I have encountered. I used to teach GED in inner city Philly as well and I had hard working students that desired to earn a high school diplomas, but because of difficult circumstances many of them had trouble finishing. I found myself saying Yes, but.

I do appreciate the call for accountability on Latin American governments, but I think it was not a comprehensive call because we to in the US must recognize our role in international politics in the Latin American countries. The immigration debate lacks any global view of international politics and economic development that increase accountability and responsibility on both sides of the issue: Latin America and US.

It would be helpful to have authors from both sides of the issue discuss this topic.

Maybe a topic to discuss is immigration. I would recommend Sonia Nazario who wrote Enrique's Journey.

Sent by Julio Hernandez | 5:55 PM ET | 01-22-2007

"Our question to you is: Is this approach, with one subject, satisfying? Or did you find yourself hungering for more of a debate?"

Perhaps we could have heard separately from a voice on the other side of the issue, but I certainly didn't want an actual debate on air. I am so sick of watching or listening to pundits scream at each other about an issue. Thats why I don't watch cable news networks anymore or listen to talk radio.

Bill Cosby and Herman Badillo both have the opinion that at some point, people have to work for themselves to make their own way. Unfortunately, not everyone likes to hear that. I agree that schools need to provide all the opportunities we can for at-risk children to succeed, but the students and parents must also provide some effort. A child isn't going to magically because brilliant through social promotion, ESL, or any other program. Students must study, and parents must make sure the students study. This is true with any at-risk group (be it ethnicity, gender, or social status).

My wife teaches in a district that still implements social promotion, and it infuriates her because every year she will have at least one student who knows that he or she can do absolutely no work and still graduate. Districts need to provide opportunities, but they also need to make students accountable.

Sent by Scott K. | 6:02 PM ET | 01-22-2007

Overall, I like the show. I would like to see more debate and more balanced discussion to see how others may see the same issue. Ive noticed that every show so far is about ethnic minority issues or views by ethnic minorities. Now, if thats the point of the show, thats fine because its nice to hear other voices, but if not, I would beware about having too many opinions by one ethnicity only and not having a broader range of voices.

Sent by Craig Yoshihara | 6:08 PM ET | 01-22-2007

I am often frustrated by interviews, especially on the evening cable news channels, which are so brief that the speaker has very little time to state his/her views. Then, they are interrupted so often by the host that they have even less time to talk. I appreciated the length of this segment for this reason. Mr. Badillo was given the time to express his views.

Sent by Kathy Kulp | 6:11 PM ET | 01-22-2007

I thought a full interview was a great way to ??? as mentioned by Michel Martin ??? give the interviewee enough of a time gap to explain himself thoroughly. I found the argument very interesting and I whole-heartedly agree with it. Being an Armenian immigrant myself, I have had to overcome many, many difficulties as they relate to my family, school, and personal demons. Furthermore, I thought the questions posed by Ms. Martin were satisfactory for inquiry and I was not left with a desire for a formal debate. Conclusively, I am very glad Herman Badillo wrote this book as I???m sure it will open the eyes of not only Hispanic parents, but many immigrant parents as well.

Sent by Mher Boyadzhyan | 6:18 PM ET | 01-22-2007

More of a debate was needed. I played this article to several NYC bilingual teachers and they said "He's Crazy". Bilingual Programs accelerate their reading scores in Spanish and English and will need it for all other ethnic groups now in the U.S.

Sent by Stork | 6:20 PM ET | 01-22-2007

I wanted to hear the other side of the story. He was very articulate and intelligent, and I found myself getting swayed to his side. However, to hear an advocate for bilingual ed, or had another idea on how to help Latinos to move up. It doesn't have to be "the opposite side," someone who thinks hes wrong and is full of crap, but maybe a different side. I don't want a Fox News style screamfest, but an intelligent discussion, with respect for everyone present.

Sent by Miriam Denmark | 6:23 PM ET | 01-22-2007

I am glad I got to hear everything that Herman Badillo had to say! This is the first time I have heard anyone from the Hispanic community talk about what can be done to help Hispanics succeed in school! Once his side of the issue is laid out, then I could appreciate more of a debate. If a debate would take place, I would like to hear what Hispanic parent of school age children would say.

Sent by Christina Marotta | 6:24 PM ET | 01-22-2007

More of a debate.

Sent by Brenda | 6:26 PM ET | 01-22-2007

I liked the style of this interview. there was enough time to actually flesh out some thought. So often what are called "debates" are nothing more than staged entertainment with little of value of being conveyed.

Sent by Deborah Dinsmore | 6:28 PM ET | 01-22-2007

I listened to the program about Hispanic bilingual education. I thought Mr. Badillo brought up some very interesting points. My first thought when I heard the title of the program was, can we all be held to the same standard of success? Does everyone have to march to the beat of the same drum? I don't know that this was answered, but I did appreciate hearing his point of view. I agree many are being left behind, but I don't know if bilingual teaching is the only problem. Maybe the value systems aren't the same.

I thought the bilingual approach was for a limited time to help the student integrate, not a permanent fixture. However, I also think its important to emphasize the value of being bilingual. The recent study from Canada regarding the mental health benefit is a perfect example of why it should be encouraged. Being a MN native, living in AZ I was appalled when the last election produced an English only response from the voters.

I am new to listening to this program, if you continue to allow a full discussion as you did with this topic, I will continue to listen. I am tired of sound bites and prepared conclusions. I have been a member of NPR for many years for this very reason.

Sent by Lois Waldron | 6:28 PM ET | 01-22-2007

I would have liked to hear someone who has worked in bilingual education in a different country or with a different group of people to compare approaches. We are not the only nation with groups of immigrants speaking a foreign language.

Sent by Tali | 10:54 PM ET | 01-22-2007

I dislike the debate format, because it polarizes the conversation. Think CNN's thankfully defunct Crossfire for a good example. Discussion shows such as Diane Rehm or News and Notes work, but only because it's a group of experts discussing a topic and not directly debating each other.

I found the segment interesting and informative and thought that the detractor's point of view was represented. If you wanted to add another point of view I would rather see it as a second interview included in the same show, with someone explaining the situation from their point of view but *not* specifically rebutting the book. As soon as you go there, people start getting aggressive and defensive and intelligent conversation goes right out the window.

Sent by Janine | 12:36 AM ET | 01-23-2007

This guy is amazing. Right on the money. Good politics, good perspective.

Sent by Camilo | 10:33 AM ET | 01-23-2007

I enjoyed this interview very much. I am passionately interested in education, and the related topics of parenting and immigration/assimilation. It's difficult for me to sort out whether I liked the piece so much because I agree with Mr. Badillo, or simply because it's a good interview. I think the format, wherein the guest is given the floor to present his case without interruption or argument, is just fine. I can't bear to hear people bickering on the radio, it makes me want to turn it off. Too few people these days know the art of rational and civil argument. My suggestion for the show is either to find people who can have an intelligent and respectful discussion about opposing viewpoints or set it up like this, with perhaps another, separate segment dealing with differing opinions. For example, I listen to Morning Edition and I like it when they do a series of related pieces over several days.

Sent by Anna | 10:42 AM ET | 01-23-2007

Needed to know the issue. Sad that a society would find no time to encourage their kids to study and blame on working so much.

Sent by Walter Weeks | 10:44 AM ET | 01-23-2007

I love listening to someone just talk without being interrupted or being pressured by time into soundbyte-size comments. You get a real picture of their opinion and insight into what is usually a more complex issue than appears on the surface. I listen to a couple of shows on Australian public radio, the ABC, and they take a similar approach - take a listen for comparison - try Phillip Adams Late Night Live or Robin Williams In Conversation to hear what I'm talking about. They are both available as podcasts. Debate is great, but it almost never affords full exposition of any one point or issue - it's more about point scoring and air time.

Sent by Elizabeth Nolf | 10:45 AM ET | 01-23-2007

This is an interesting subject. But at least for a more extended broadcast (more than, say, 7 minutes) I think including several guests would be better. I do not think that call-in speakers are necessary at all.

Sent by William Hadfield-Burkardt | 10:46 AM ET | 01-23-2007

Hello Michel:

Welcome ... your new effort looks and reads great ... please be sure to include Native Americans/First Nations/Indian Country in the mix of your programs to reflect diversity.

Sent by Leslee Spencer | 10:46 AM ET | 01-23-2007

Fascinating topic! I liked the way it was presented and I would like to hear more from the author. I don't think we need to hear a debate because most of us know what the opposing side is. But I would love to hear how the author thinks we can get the educational system back on track.

Sent by Debbie Combs | 10:47 AM ET | 01-23-2007

Herman Badillo was excellent. He needed the time to explain his position. Would others benefit from the idea that it is important for parents to participate in their children's education? I would like to know why some races stress the importance of education and others do not? What is the relationship to education, drugs and violence? How long is your program? I think I have heard it on NPR which I listen to exclusively

Sent by Susan Pittman | 10:51 AM ET | 01-23-2007

I enjoyed the thoroughness of the Badillo interview, but it would have been more balanced if there was a debate approach.

Sent by Camille | 10:52 AM ET | 01-23-2007

I think it is a good idea to let someone speak and explain their ideas. So much of the things we hear are only sound bites - no real thoughts, that it becomes depressing.

Also, the interviewer shapes the discussion by asking questions from their own point of view and not necessarily from the speaker's point of view. I have an even lower opinion of listener questions. By the way, I think this is a very interesting way of creating a new program. I like new ideas and I hope it works out - for all of us.

Sent by Ned Hackett | 10:55 AM ET | 01-23-2007

I just heard the mp3 of Mr. Badillo.

I am a fan of insightful and risky questions. For example: China is emerging as a superpower and in 20 years, may have a stronger economy than the U.S. Do you think Caucasians will wrongly make a connection between the U.S. decline in world supremacy and the rise of Hispanics in the U.S.?

Sent by Andrew Lascar | 10:57 AM ET | 01-23-2007

A full show allowing in depth explanation of one point of view? Intelligent questions and follow up in the interest of clarity? No shouting and name calling? What a novel idea.

Sent by Thomas Strauss | 8:31 PM ET | 01-23-2007

Very interesting content. I wished it could be longer. I would have liked to hear other views. It is good to get a balanced perspective, even if it is one long commentary, with some comments or counter arguements which are shorter.

Sent by Bryan Bajema | 1:16 AM ET | 01-24-2007

I liked the format, giving him the whole time slot. It seemed that you asked the "blame the victim" question twice, which came across as not quite badgering, but maybe there might have been another way to press him without using the exact term again. I like how you posed tough questions from opponents without being overly confrontational, which led to him answering in a more open way than if he had felt defensive. This was an excellent program which made me glad I'm subscribed to the podcast.

Sent by Len | 9:28 AM ET | 01-24-2007

Just listened to this piece and was quite satisfied with the format. I appreciated, Michel, that you re-asked your question about whether Mr. Badillo's arguments are a form of "blaming the victims" and I was heartened by his response. You ask if a debate format would have been better for this piece and unless you found yourself in the position to run a piece four or five times in length than the one you ran and with talented debaters more committed to reaching understanding than trumping one another through your medium, than I have to say no, god no, a debate format would have been much worse! The format you chose still allows a debate and, in effect, a better one. After listening the debate over bi-lingual education and other programs to serve agroup everyone agrees is underserved continues on in my thoughts where it is freed from political point garnering and one-line one-upmanship. And I am now brilliantly free to seek out more information. Thanks!

Sent by Crom | 11:24 AM ET | 01-25-2007

This man is my brother. I am a teacher and I am always preaching the very same thing to my son, and to my students. It was just very right on (does that date me?) I like Rough Cuts.

Sent by Claudia Marshall | 5:41 PM ET | 01-25-2007

I liked the segment with Herman Badillo. It was indeed a traditional treatment of the subject when interviewing an author. It was an interesting segment and told me things I didn't know.

And I would like to hear an equally enlightening interview with a defender of bi-lingual education, one who addresses the specific points Mr. Badillo makes.

It's not exactly a debate, since it doesn't involve both spokespersons on air at the same time, but it would add the positive points a proponent of bilingual education would make in reply.

I'm really not interested in on-air arguments that provide more heat than light, but back to back segments on the topic would be interesting.

Sent by Tom Murrell | 10:11 AM ET | 01-31-2007

I enjoyed this piece quite a bit. I do think a seperate piece for the opposite argument would have also been beneficial. Also, I was curious as to why he called himself an 'ex-liberal' on his book though. I'm very interested in reading it now. I tend to agree with his argument, but think another viewpoint would have been helpful. Not a debate, just the a different viewpoint.

Sent by Kara | 10:47 AM ET | 01-31-2007

This segment was interesting. Thank you for not slipping into NPR's standard he-said-she-said allegedly fair-and-balanced predictable mode.

Every time NPR does this "let's pretend there's two (and only two !!!) sides to EVERY issue" it boils my blood.

Cover the issue another day from some other perspective. He-said-she-said is boring and tiring. Glad you didn't do that.

Sent by Allears | 3:25 PM ET | 01-31-2007

I agree with Bill Cosby.

It was not boring- all the right questions were asked, and I think all the different possible viewpoints were addressed fairly.

Kudos!

Sent by Jennifer | 12:28 PM ET | 02-01-2007

The web question asks if more debate is needed, I would like to suggest that the wording of that question is inappropriate for what is really needed which is healing, so the doctor must step in. "Debate" the word tends too imply that there is a right and a wrong , a winner an a loser. when it comes to issues like this, people need to avoid that trap and go into a "council of elders" mode as the problem is to be solved for the sake of the children and the country's sake not place blame on well intentioned people! Refering to the poem "If" by Kipling ...If you could see your truths twisted by knaves and made a trap for fools....! Bravo, Badillo. Because his original intentions went off course, indeed it may be time for a course correction not to hide from the current problem. Sometimes things need to be revisited. Things in motion like sailing ships require attention and course correction, as the journey proceeds. And we are on a journey, let us adjust again towards that Land of promise, which is the "Promised Land". Consequently a better America, a better world.

Sent by Robert Noyes Lowe, M.D. | 1:39 PM ET | 02-01-2007

Anytime I hear a politician talk about education, I'm amazed at how casually people assume an air of authority about matters of education. What about hearing from ELL teachers, school psychologists, principals, and other experts in the field? So much research out there, but who really reads it? Leaving the politics aside, I would like to hear more what the research says about bilingual education versus English-only, as well as other areas of concern for ELL students.

Sent by James Cressey | 11:11 PM ET | 02-05-2007

I tend to agree with the other posters and welcome this new format. However,I would like to suggest that you consider interviewing someone with a counterpoint to his views in order to give your audience a more balanced understanding of the topic.

Sent by Dslunlimited | 7:58 PM ET | 02-10-2007

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