Tell Me More
 

'Honey, We Need to Talk'

A few years ago when I was covering a national political convention for a television network, one of the anchors pulled me aside to tell me that he had observed that I had "only" interviewed black people. "Try to grow," he said, or something like that. I was furious. By that time in my career, I had interviewed actors, golf pros, gang members, heads of state, world famous symphony conductors and victims of every conceivable disaster. In essence, I had been talking to white people -- and all other kinds of people -- my entire professional life about all kinds of things.

My job as floor correspondent was to seek out the most interesting people I could find -- plus, there weren't that many black people at that convention! What the anchor said to me simply could not be true, I thought.

As the sportscasters say, let's go to the videotape. I looked at what had been on the air. The anchor had gone to me exactly once for an on-camera exchange with a convention delegate, and indeed, the person I interviewed was African-American. But the reason I selected that delegate had nothing to do with her race -- it was because she was from a swing state. Even more interesting, the correspondent who followed me -- a white person -- had also interviewed an African-American, also for reasons that had nothing to do with her race. The perception was that both interviews were mine.

Race affects perception; I might even say distorts it. I don't know why it does -- I just know that it does. Black people and white people often disagree about what words like "integrated" or "diverse" mean. If a previously segregated country club decides to admit one black member is it "integrated"? If a previously all-black college or university has a small white or Latino student population, is it "diverse"? Clearly, some minority cultural figures have universal appeal. But to achieve that appeal, is there a limit to how much reference can be made to that person's heritage?

Many people claim they "don't notice" race. Overseas, it can be said, African-Americans often report that they are more likely to be viewed as American than as black. And if that's the case it's because their "American-ness" -- the power that comes with their passport and their resources -- proves far more relevant to their travel experience than their race. But in this country, when people say they "don't notice" race, often what they're really saying is that racial issues don't interest them, don't affect them (at least not negatively) or they just don't want to talk about those issues. That may be fine for them, but what if other people's lives are affected by race? What if those affected do want to talk about it?

I'm bringing this up because I am responding again to some of the listener posts about this new program we are developing. As I have previously noted, the vast majority of the responses have been extremely constructive and supportive, even when people haven't liked everything we've sent out. Some have questioned whether the perspective of the show, so far, is too heavily weighted toward African-Americans -- a fair point, worth discussion.

But there is another group of respondents that I feel I must address. You will not have seen all of these posts because some of them are abusive, which violates the terms of this online community. Still, I need to talk about their logic. I want to challenge it.

Essentially, they are saying that because this program clearly highlights voices of persons of color, that this program has no right to exist. Some seem to think if a program is not catering to them, it is discriminating against them. Others are just not interested in either our topics or our approach. But it isn't enough that they can choose not to listen to us. They seem to believe that whatever does not interest them should not be discussed on the air. By anybody.

Now think about that.

If we lived in a world where there was only one radio program you could listen to, and that program had to meet all your needs for news and information, then I could see where you might say, "You know, I don't really care if you feel it's important to make your holiday celebrations reflect your culture." But we are not in that world.

We are in a world of hundreds of channels and hundreds of listening opportunities in news and talk, on satellite, Web, radio and podcasts. Do you really want to tell me there's no room for another program where people can talk about distinct challenges and interests that relate to their culture and heritage? Is there really no room to discuss issues from a perspective other than that of the majority?

For some people, maybe not. Last spring, when I was sitting in for Neal Conan on Talk of the Nation, the news that week had been super serious and I wanted to do a couple of minutes of lighter fare. So I invited one of the nation's top fashion and business writers on the program to talk about what was considered "hot" in spring fashion. I got I don't know how many calls or e-mails complaining that the segment was stupid. (I note that the Washington Post's Robin Givhan, fashion writer extraordinaire, won the Pulitzer Prize for criticism not a week later -- but I digress.)

I wondered why these people had such a sense of entitlement? I would never dream of calling up and chastising Neal for talking about baseball, which is, like fashion, both a diversion and a huge business. If he and millions of other people are passionate about it, why can't he talk about it? And if he can talk about baseball, why can't I talk about shoes?

I draw the same analogy to race, which is, after all, just another relationship. We are all here together, sometimes happily, sometimes uncomfortably. In any relationship, interests and priorities will differ. Sometimes it's funny (spring fashion vs. baseball). Sometimes the differences are quite profound requiring serious and ongoing discussion. In all partnerships where there is any equality at all, the time will come when a partner will put up his or her hand and say, "Honey, we need to talk." Sometimes the other partner doesn't want to hear it. But that doesn't mean the issue has gone away -- far from it. People of good will find a way to talk. The great thing about this experience is that I have discovered just how many of you are people of good will, who only want to be shown a way into the conversation. We are committed to doing just that. And the great thing about us is if you're not ready for it, you can turn us off and come back later and you won't have to sleep on the couch!

In this space we're going to talk. I hope you join us. And don't forget that this week I am in Los Angeles. I'm sitting in for Farai Chideya at News & Notes on Friday. Wish me luck. Sitting in someone else's anchor chair is like driving somebody else's car -- you don't want to leave any crumbs, and you sure don't want to crash.

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10:34 AM ET | 01-25-2007 | permalink

 

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Hi Michel,

I was turned onto your podcast from the other NPR feeds I get and I thought I'd check it out. I'm always looking for alternatives to mainstream media (although I subscribe to plenty of that too).

I'll say right up front that I'm a white American from Ohio, but I consider myself race-agnostic. I don't know if that's a valid phrase, but basically racial differences mean very little to me except in their inherent ability to offer alternative perspectives on various issues.

I have to admit that, after listening to your first couple of podcasts, I wondered if this wasn't a ???black content??? show and questioned how much it would be of interest to me. However, after sitting through the shows, I found that there was value in what you offered. I'm reminded of one of your shows where you interviewed several women about their culture and the ways in which they celebrate the holiday season (I think ???What if your Santa ain't Pink???). I could cite others (???Powerful Voices???), but I think I've made my point. Your shows offer unique perspectives on a variety of topics and I find that valuable. I believe much of the racial tension in the world is based, in part, on ignorance and I strive to limit that in myself.

I've often wondered what would happen if I dropped in on a location somewhere like Nairobi. Would I be seen as ???White,??? ???American,??? simply different, or would I be accepted without so much as a sideways glance. I realize that I'm showing my ignorance by this, but I've wondered nonetheless.

I'm certainly no expert on the topic. I'm just an average joe who gets very frustrated at some of the injustices being suffered by people of all heritage. Maybe it's blacks because of their color and our history of intolerance and abuse. Maybe it's the Japanese at the internment camps in the '40s. Maybe it's a Muslim being detained at an airport because he needed to say a prayer in his native language. It just sickens me, and it makes me wonder if I would have the strength of character to live with such things as many others are forced to do.

It's interesting that you post this today because I subscribe to another podcast called ???Geekbrief TV??? and we just went through the very same situation, where a couple of users decided that they didn't like the way that the hostess conducted the show. They threatened to unsubscribe if she didn't change. Talk about high-horse. Good riddance. She (Cali Lewis) has plenty of fans and doesn't need the bad seeds.

Anyway, I value the work you do and will continue to listen. Those who don't like it are certainly not being forced to listen, and I would offer to you the same advice I gave Cali above. Accept constructive feedback for the ways in which it can help you improve your show. Thank the fans (like me) who commend you on the work you do. Ignore the rest. They're not a value-add and they're not worth your time.

Will there be shows that don't interest me? Sure. I'll probably listen anyway because it's not that much time and I may discover that you find a way to pull me in like in the examples above. However, I always have the freedom to delete a show if I wish and no harm done. What's the value in trying to slam the host of the show?

I hope this wasn't too long, but I appreciate the opportunity to comment here.

Sent by Kevin M. Arth | 12:03 PM ET | 01-25-2007

Michel Martin, Your voice, your energy, your brilliant view point, and your chic style will be a exciting addition to the talented roster at NPR. "break-a-leg" as they say in Hollywood...best of luck!

Sent by Lisa Crawford | 12:31 PM ET | 01-25-2007

Ms. Martin: I missed that show, unfortunately. However, I feel that most "Black-" "Latin-" or other -American features on NPR serve me greatly. How else can I know what people of other cultures say about "whites" when they are together without us? I very much enjoyed last evening's PBS-TV show on Opra's "Roots", because while I'm intellectually aware of the degredation of slavery, getting an "insider's view" makes me FEEL it.
BTW, until I looked at the photo on this blog, I didn't know you were African-American.
With thanks for keeping us on our toes,
Jo Anna, (Celtic-American!)

Sent by Jo Anna Tobey | 2:36 PM ET | 01-25-2007

Michel,
I'm not sure how to give you a round of applause via the web, but maybe you'll settle for the time that I'm dedicating to thanking you for your work. I do find VALUE in what you have to say, and often wish that there are more people that are willing to bring these issues to the surface.

I am an Indian-American. I am the first generation born here in the U.S. and although I would not say that I have faced many racial issues in my life I have faced a few. I do not know how to fully describe the frustration that takes over when someone comes into your world and makes a judgment entirely on the color of your skin, and on the assumptions of the practices and spiritual choices of your culture.

When it comes down to it race is a beautiful issue that should be celebrated with much more discussion. We owe amazing tastes, inspiring music, expressive fashions, life saving medicines, and much more than I can list here that come from the fact that so many different races exist. I believe that there are many others out there that looking for this forum???if you build it, they will come.

There you have it???my respect and gratitude for your work. Please continue on for ALL of us, Chris Mathew

Sent by Chris Mathew | 3:28 PM ET | 01-25-2007

Michel,

Unfortunately, the nefarious commenters that you have cited are not alone. If we skip across the pond, we'll find that a recent British poll finds that 41% of respondents fear a Holocaust in the United Kingdom (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070122/wl_uk_afp/britainhistory_070122125729), and this news coincides with a British government recommendation that urges "Britishness" education in schools (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6294643.stm).

Stories -- American or not -- of national and ethnic identity are rife with diversity issues. Shows like your forthcoming one are important to help stave off misunderstanding and intolerance.

Sent by Steve Petersen | 5:26 PM ET | 01-25-2007

I had been one of the original commenters of the whole race thing. My questions centerred around my confusion of not understanding the concept of the show. If this was going to be an "African American focused" show, which isn't how it was described, I began to wonder how it would be useful to my needs or how I would even stay interested.

The first two shows focused only on African American related topics, and the HPV show for some reason only include African American guests (and there were even questions specific about that race even though HPV affects all races).

I had assumed coming in that this show would include diverse stories and points of view, but that isn't what I heard in the first three stories. In stories since then, other ethnic and racial minorities and stories have been the focus of the show, so my question was obviously answerred. I think some of these questions might have been stopped to begin with if you had the "Puerto Rican Bill Cosby", "Ordinary Oprahs", or "Powerful Voices" shows earlier.

So, in the end, I have no problem with the stories or people focused in this show. I just was confused if the advertised reason for the show was accurate.

Sent by Scott K | 10:38 AM ET | 01-30-2007

Hello Michel;
I listen to NPR alot, some may say too much but when I come across a diamond in the rough like yours it is well worth the time. I am a stong believer in the premise of walking in anothers shoes, often the shoes are hard to get on or once on, too painful to endure for long. Still the effort is the objective. I think you are asking the correct questions so I hope to see more. I encourage you to maintain that effort and approach. If you are still looking for a title, how about "Societal Mirror".
Good luck and best wishes.

Sent by Bob Klug | 10:43 AM ET | 01-31-2007

I will say up front I am a white male and that I have yet to listen to your show, but plan to do so especially since reading the comments on the NPR site. I would like to ask you to present the views of white folks who have faced many of the same issues as minorities in this country. Does that comment sound odd? To many it probally does. What I am referring to are folks like myself who come from Appalachia. Like minorities, we have faced an America that has terrible stereotypes of who we are as well as what and where we come from. Countless times I have been asked, "Are you married to your sister? Or, maybe your cousin?" At times, I have been introduced as being from West Virginia or Appalachia only to hear the comment, "and yes, he has his shoes on today." Or been humiliated in a college classroom as when a Spanish teacher, upon finding out that I was from West Virginia, commented "I am surprised you are in this class because I didn't know that you folks had yet to master English." So, again I ask that you provide the diverse views of all Americans regardless of their race/ethnicity.

Sent by John E. West | 11:17 AM ET | 01-31-2007

The situation you describe as an Appalachian, Mr West, is encapsulated in a great t-shirt "Same Struggle, Different Difference." I wear it because I'm obviously disabled (and I also have non-obvious disabilities).

"Same struggle, different difference" is why I'm excited about Ms Martin's new show. Because so many people end up boxed in by stereotypes, we can all benefit from hearing the voices of those who are coping and (sometimes!) flourishing anyway.

Those of us who box others, as well as those of us just discovering the boundaries of our boxes, can benefit.

Can't wait until it goes live to air, and thank goodness for broadband net access!

Sent by Jesse the K | 5:50 PM ET | 01-31-2007

It is me again.

The comments by John E. West and Jesse the K are both fascinating as they touch upon the challenges that stereotypes place upon us.

This reminds me of a seminar course I took during my freshman year of college about 6 years ago that was taught by a sociology professor, Dr. Karen Halnon of Penn State (http://experts.psu.edu/faculty.php?id=245). The course focused on what she called "Deviance Vacations," which are when people descend to a lower socioeconomic class for kicks and giggles. I would love to hear a segment about this.

During the course several rock and rap bands like Limp Bizkit and Eminem were popular, but they consisted of white guys who were acting like black gangstas from the ghetto. They were our subjects for deviance vacation studies. How did these groups assume an identity that wasn't their own? Why did those who they emulated accept them? Why did their fans who weren't black or poor enjoy their masquerade? Why did these bands want to exploit a group that is unfortunately perceived inferior to their own?

White rappers are not the only examples of people embarking on deviance vacations; for instance, there are preppy punks and drag queens as well.

These "journeys" are deviant since people choose to act differently than expected. They are vacations since, for example, Fred Durst of Limp Bizkit can ride his band's wave of fame and then act white again minus the stigma of a black gangsta. A drag queen can return to his cushy corner office job and family life during the week. People like Durst and drag queens can also afford such jaunts economically and socially.

However, the blacks that Durst emulates cannot change their skin color; a true high school punk probably cannot go home to his or her BMW, Play Station 3, backyard pool, or rely upon his parents to get into a quality college.

Halnon wonders how those who go on deviance vacations credibly masquerade as something that they are not and how their ability to return to a more comfortable societal position affects those who are not as mobile.

Please invite her on the show to discuss this interesting diversity topic.

Sent by Steve Petersen | 10:42 PM ET | 01-31-2007

Regarding the idea that African Americans traveling abroad are only seen as American: Would that it were true, but I have to say it doesn't correspond with my own experiences. I am a white woman who served in the Peace Corps in Central America. When showing photographs from home to people in my community, they would always stop when they came to pictures of my Black friends and ask "Where is he from?" or "She's not American!". The same happened when non-white volunteers came to visit my site -- it was very hard for many people to accept that people who were Asian/Latino/Black were just as American as I was! It was a fantastic teaching experience, but I also found it really dispiriting -- looking at the American television shows and movies that the people in my communtity watched, I realized how few diverse faces they actually saw. I think the American media is getting better, but many of the images we watch at home and export do still reinforce the image that this is a white country.

I want to say that I love this show -- I married a Latino while overseas, and some of your programs on interracial families and combining family traditions have been really helpful to me.

Sent by Katherine Ruiz | 11:24 AM ET | 02-08-2007

I love this podcast so far. In my opinion each segment is vastly different from the next--there's something here for everyone. My favorites so far have been the "Puerto Rican Bill Cosby," "Mocha Moms," and "Everyday Oprahs." Great work here--just another affirmation of why I love NPR programming. I don't really understand all the comments about how the show is targeted at an African-American audience. I'm white and don't feel excluded at all--what I think is so wonderful is the show is opening up these issues for discussion. Open dialogue is the key to ending so much over-defensive race talk on both sides. Brava, Michel, for getting the talking going . . . I love your show.

Sent by Kara Eller | 11:02 PM ET | 02-08-2007



   
   
   
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