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SHAW: Time. Mr. Secretary, this question is for you. Washington is a caldron of political bickering and partisanship. The American people, gentlemen, have had enough. How would you elevate political discourse and purpose?

Mr. CHENEY: Well, the--I think there--there are a number of ways to do it. First of all, I agree with your assessment. I think--I--I've been out of Washington for the last eight years, Bernie, and spent the last five years running a company, global concern, and I've been out in the private sector building a business, hiring people, creating jobs. I've got a different perspective on Washington than I had when I was there in the past. I'm proud of my service in Washington for 25 years, but also proud that I had the opportunity to go out and get a different experience.

And you're absolutely right, people are fed up. They--they've had enough with the--the bickering and--and the partisanship that seems to characterize the debate that goes on in the nation's capital. I've seen it done differently, though. I've seen it done differently in Texas. I've watched George Bush, and one of the reasons I was eager to sign on when he asked me to become his running mate is because I've been so tremendously impressed with what he's done as the governor of Texas.

He came in when he a had a Legislature completely controlled by the other party. He managed to reach across partisan lines and--and unite Republicans and Democrats and Independents, put them to work to achieve good things for the state of Texas, partly because he didn't point the finger of blame, looking for scapegoats. He was quick to share the credit. We ended up--as a result of that activity at the end of his first term, the top Democrat in the state, Lieutenant Governor Bob Bullock, endorsed the Republican governor, George Bush, for re-election.

It is possible to change the tone. It is possible to--to get people to work together and to begin to focus on achieving results, but I think it's going to take new leadership. I don't think you can do it, with all due respect to--to Al Gore, with somebody who spent all the last 24 years in that Washington environment and who campaigns on the basis of--of castigating others, of pointing the finger of blame at others in terms of blaming business or various and sundry groups for our failings. I think you have to be able to reach out and--and work together and build coalitions, and I think George W. Bush has done that in Texas and can do it at the national level.

SHAW: Senator?

Sen. LIEBERMAN: Bernie, you're absolutely right, there's too much partisanship in Washington. It puzzles me. You know, you'd think that people in public life and politics would--would want to do what would make them popular, and--and yet too often people in both parties seem to act in a way that brings down the institutions of government and each of us individually. And it's a shame.

I have tried very hard in my career to call them as I see them and--and work with colleagues on both sides of the aisle to get things done, and I'm--I'm proud of my record in that regard, and I certainly think that would be an asset that I could bring to the vice presidency, should I be fortunate enough to be elected. I mean, in my Senate career, I've worked with Bo--Bob Dole, for instance, on Bosnia, and I worked with John McCain on cultural values. I worked with Connie Mack on foreign policy. I've worked with Don Nickles on the International Religious Freedom Act. If I go on much longer, I'm going to get in trouble with my own party, but the--the fact is that that's the way things get done, and I'm proud of those partnerships.

And let me say a word about Al Gore. In hi--in his years in the House and the Senate, he formed similar bipartisan partnerships. If you look back over the last eight years, the most significant accomplishments of this administration, in which Al Gore was centrally involved, were the result, most of them, of bipartisan agreements. I mean, after all, the Welfare Reform Act, which Al Gore promised to lead the effort on to get people off of welfare, to set time limits, to get people to enjoy the dignity of work, that was a bipartisan act that was adopted. The Anti-Crime Act, which has lowered crime--or helped lower crime more than 20 percent in our country today, also was bipartisan. And then the Balanced Budget Act of 1997, which was critical to getting our economy to the point or our government to the point of unprecedented surplus we enjoy today, also was bipartisan, and Al Gore was involved. So I--I'd say that's exactly the kind of bipartisan leadership that he and I can bring to Washington to get things done.

SHAW: Time.

Mr. CHENEY: With--with all due respect, Joe, there--there is just an awful lot of evidence that there has not been any bipartisan leadership out of this administration or out of Al Gore. The fact is the Medicare problems have not been addressed. We've had eight years of promises on prescription drugs and no action. Social Security problem has not been addressed. We've had eight years of talk and no action. The educational problem has not been addressed; we have eight years of talk and no action.

Now they've been in--in a position of responsibility in the White House, the powerful interests, if you will, in Washington, DC, and they've been unable to work with others. Medicare is a classic example. You had the Breaux commission, a good effort at a bipartisan solution for Medicare. Whether you bought or didn't buy the--the answer that was generated, the fact is the administration helped set it up and then pulled the plug on it because they'd rather have the issue than they would the solution. This administration has not led from a bipartisan standpoint, and I really do think that Al Gore's record in this regard isn't very good.

Sen. LIEBERMAN: Bernie, Dick Cheney must be one of the few people in America who doesn--who thinks that nothing has been accomplished in the last eight years. I mean, the fact is that promises were made and promises were kept. I mean, has Al Gore--did Al Gore make promises in 1992? Absolutely. Did he deliver? Big-time, if I may put it that way. And that's--that's the record. Look at the 20--look at the 22 million new jobs. Look at the four million new businesses. Look at the lower interest rates, low rate of inflation, high rate of growth. I think if you asked most people in America today that famous question that Ronald Reagan asked, `Are you better off today than you were eight years ago?' most people would say yes. And I'm pleased to say--see, Dick, from the newspapers that you're better off than you were eight years ago, too.

Mr. CHENEY: And most of it--and--and I--I can tell you, Joe, that the government had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Sen. LIEBERMAN: Interesting.

SHAW: This question is to you. But...

Sen. LIEBERMAN: I can see my wife, and I think she's thinking, `Gee, I wish he would go out into the private sector.'

Mr. CHENEY: Well, I'm going to try to help you do that, Joe.

Sen. LIEBERMAN: Well, I--no, I--I--I--I think you've done so well there, I want to keep you there.

Mr. CHENEY: OK.

SHAW: Dick Cheney, Joe Lieberman, you are black for this question. Imagine yourself an African-American. You become the target of racial profiling either while walking or driving. African-American Joseph Lieberman, what would you do about it?

Sen. LIEBERMAN: I'd be outraged. It is--it is such an assault on the basic promise that America makes that--that the law will treat individuals as individuals, regardless of their status; that is to say, their--their race, their nationality, their gender, their sexual orientation, etc., etc. And--and the sad fact is that racial profiling occurs in this country.

I--I have a few African-American friends who have gone through this horror, and, you know, it makes me want to kind of hit--hit the wall because it is such an assault on their humanity and their citizenship. We can't tolerate it anymore. That's why I've supported legislation, in the first instance in Congress because it's the most we could get done, to do hard studies to--to make the case of the extent to which racial profiling is occurring in our country. But it's also why I'm so proud that Al Gore has said two things: First, we would issue, if we're fortunate enough to be elected, an executive order prohibiting racial profiling; and secondly, the first civil rights act we would--legislation we would send to Congress would be a--a national ban on racial profiling.

It is just wrong. It is--it is un-American. A--and to think that in the 21st century this kind of nonsense is still going on, we've got to stop it, and the only way to stop it is through the law. I mean, the law, after all, is meant to express our values and our aspirations for our society, and--and our values are--are violently contradicted by the kind of raf--racial profiling that I know exists. And I just had a friend a while ago, Bernie, who works in the government, works at the White House, African-American, stopped, surrounded by police for--for no other cause than anyone can determine than--than the color of his skin. That--that can't be in America anymore.

SHAW: Mr. Secretary.

Mr. CHENEY: Well, Bernie, I--I'd like to answer your question to the best of my ability, but I--I don't think I can understand fully what it would be like. Try hard to put myself in that position and imagine what it would be like, but, of course, I've always been part of the majority; I've never been part of a--of a minority group. But it has to be a horrible experience. It's the--the sense of anger and frustration and rage that would go with knowing that the only reason you were stopped, the only reason you were arrested was because of your--color of your skin would make me extraordinarily angry. And I'm not sure how--how I would respond.

I think that we have to recognize that--that while we've made enormous progress in the US in--in racial relations, and we've come a very long way, we still have a long way to go; that we still have not only the problems we're talking about here tonight, in terms of the--the problems that you mentioned of profiling, but beyond that, we still have achievement gap in education, income differentials, differences in life span. We still have, I think, a society that--where we haven't done enough yet to live up to that standard that we'd all like to live up to, I think, in terms of equality of opportunity; that we judge people as individuals. As Martin Luther King said, `We ought to judge people on the content of their character instead of the color of their skin.' I would hope that we can continue to make progress in that regard in the years ahead.

SHAW: Senator, sexual orientation. Should a male who loves a male and a female who loves a female have all--all the constitutional rights enjoyed by every American citizen?

Sen. LIEBERMAN: Very current and difficult question, and I--I've been thinking about it, and I--I want to explain what my thoughts have been. May--maybe I should begin this answer by going back to the beginning of the--of the country and the Declaration of Independence, which says right there at the outset that all of us are created equal and that we're endowed, not by any bunch of politicians or philosophers, but by our Creator with those inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

At the beginning of our--our history, that promise, that ideal was not realized or experienced by all Americans, but over time since then we have--we have extended the orbit of that promise. And in our time, at the frontier of that effort is extending those kinds of rights to gay and lesbian Americans, who are citizens of this country and--and children of the same awesome God just as much as any of the rest of us are. That--that's why I have been an original co-sponsor of the Employment Nondiscrimination Act, which--which aims to prevent gay and lesbian Americans, who are otherwise qualified, from being discriminated against in the workplace, and I--I've sponsored other pieces of legislation and other act--taken other actions that--that carry out that ideal.

The question you pose is a difficult one for this reason. It--it--it--it confronts or challenges the traditional notion of marriage as being limited to a heterosexual couple, which I support. But I must say I'm thinking about this because I have friends who--who are in gay and lesbian partnerships, who've said to me, `Isn't it unfair that we don't have similar legal rights to inheritance, to visitation when one of the partners is ill, to health-care benefits?' And that's why I'm thinking about it, and my mind is open to taking some action that will address those elements of unfairness, while respecting the traditional religious...

SHAW: Time.

Sen. LIEBERMAN: ...and civil institution of marriage.

SHAW: Mr. Secretary.

Mr. CHENEY: This is a tough one, Bernie. The--the fact of the matter is we live in a free society, and--and freedom means freedom for everybody. We don't get to choose and shouldn't be able to choose and say, `You get to live free, but you don't.' And--and I think that means that people should be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to enter into. It's really no one else's business, in terms of trying to regulate or--or prohibit behavior in that regard.

The next step then, of course, is the question you ask of whether or not there ought to be some kind of official sanction, if you will, of the relationship or if these relationships should be treated the same way a conventional marriage is. That's a tougher problem. That's not a--a slam dunk. I think the fact of the matter, of course, is that matters regulated by the states--I think different states are likely to come to different conclusions, and that's appropriate. I don't think there should necessarily be a federal policy in this area.

I try to be open-minded about it as much as I can and tolerant of those relationships, and like Joe, I'm--also wrestle with the extent of which there ought to be legal sanction of those relationships. I think we ought to do everything we can to--to tolerate and accommodate whatever kind of relationships people want to enter into.

SHAW: It occurs to me that your moderator has committed a boo-boo. I asked the racial profiling question of you, you responded, and then I asked the sexual orientation question of you. I should not have done that in terms of rotation. Gentlemen, I apologize.

Sen. LIEBERMAN: We forgive you.

SHAW: Thank you.

Sen. LIEBERMAN: You're human, like we are.

SHAW: Mr. Secretary, vice president of the United States of America, what would you bring to the job that your opponent wouldn't?

Mr. CHENEY: We clearly come from different political perspectives. Joe is a--is a Democrat from New England. I'm a Republican from the West, from Wyoming. And it's--I think that weighs into it to some extent. Clearly, we're both in the positions we're in because of our personal relationships with our principles. I think the--the areas that I would bring are the things that Governor Bush emphasized when he--when he picked me: that I've been White House chief of staff and ran the White House under President Ford; that I'd spent 10 years in the House, eight of that in the leadership; served as secretary of Defense; and then had significant experience in the private sector.

And I think that where there are differences between Joe and myself, in terms of background and experience, I clearly have spent a lot of time in executive positions running large organizations, both in the--in private business as well as in government, and that's a--a set of qualifications that--that Governor Bush found attractive when he selected me. I'll leave it at that.

SHAW: Senator.

Sen. LIEBERMAN: Bernie, I have--I have great respect, too, for Dick Cheney. I--I don't agree with a lot of things he said in this campaign, but I--I have great respect for him. He was a--he was a very distinguished secretary of Defense, and I--I ha--I don't have anything negative to say about him.

So I--I want to say, with the humility that is required to respond to this statement, that I think what--what I would bring to the office of the vice presidency is a lifetime's experience: growing up in a--in a working-class family, having the opportunity to go to a great public school system, then to go on to college and--and then to be drawn, really, by President Kennedy as well as the values of service my family gave me into--into public life, wanting to make a difference. And I've had extraordinary opportunities, thanks, again, to those folks back home in Connecticut, as a state senator, as an attorney general fighting to enforce the law, to protect them in the environment and as consumers and to litigate on behalf of human rights, and for the last 12 years as a member of the Senate of the United States, focusing on national security questions, environmental protection, economic growth and values.

But perhaps what I most bring is--is a friendship and--and shared values and--and shared priorities with Al Gore. I have tremendous respect for Al Gore. I've known him for 15 years. He's an outstanding person, as a public official and as a private person. His--his--his life is built on his faith. It's devoted to his family. He--he volunteered for service in Vietnam. From the beginning in Congress, he's been willing to take on the big interests and fight for average people. As vice president, he's been, I think, the most effective vice president in the history of the United States. And he's got the right program to use the prosperity all the American people have earned to help particularly hardworking, middle-class families raise up their children to enjoy a better life. I think that's--that's what this is all about and why I'm so proud to be his running mate.

SHAW: And because of my boo-boo, I'm going to direct this question again...

Sen. LIEBERMAN: Understood. ...(Unintelligible).

SHAW: ...to Secretary Cheney. Have you noticed a contradiction or hypocritical shift by your opponent on positions and issues since he was nominated?

Mr. CHENEY: Boy, we've been trying very hard to keep this on a high plane, Bernie.

SHAW: Thanks, Bernie.

Mr. CHENEY: I--I do have a couple of concerns, where I like the old Joe Lieberman better than I do the new Joe Lieberman. Let me see if I can put it in those terms. Joe established, I thought, an outstanding record in his work on this whole question of violence in the media and the kinds of materials that were being pedaled to our children, and many of us on the Republican side admired him for that.

There is, I must say, the view now that having joined with Al Gore on the--on the ticket, on the other side, that the depth of conviction that we'd admired before isn't quite as strong as it was perhaps in the past. The temptation, on the one hand, to--to criticize the activities of the industry, as was pointed out recently in the Federal Trade Commission, whether they're taking clearly material meant for adults and--and selling it to our children, at the same time they are participating in fund-raising events with some of the people responsible for that activity has been a source of concern for many of us.

We were especially disturbed, Joe, at a recent fund-raiser you attended where there was a comedian who got up and criticized George Bush's religion. And I know you're not responsible for having uttered any words of criticism of his religion, but to some extent, my concern would be, frankly, that--that you haven't been as--as consistent as you had been in the past; that a lot of your good friends, like Bill Bennett and others of us, who'd admired your firmness of purpose over the years, have felt that you're not quite the crusader for that cause that you once were.

Sen. LIEBERMAN: Well, Bernie, you'll not be surprised to hear that I disagree. First, let me--let me talk about that joke a--about religion, which I found very distasteful. And believe me, if--if--if anybody has devoted his life to--to respecting the role of religion in American life and understands that Americans, from the beginning of our history, have turned to God for strength and purpose, it's me. And, you know,, any offense that was done I apologize for, and--and I thought that humor was unacceptable.

Let--let me come to the question of Hollywood and then answer the general question. A--Al Gore and I have felt for a long time, first as parents and then only second as public officials, that w--we cannot let America's parents stand alone in--in this competition that they feel they're in with Hollywood to raise their own kids and give their kids the faith and the values that they want to give them, a--and I've been a consistent crusader on that behalf.

John McCain and I actually requested the Federal Trade Commission report that came out three or four weeks ago, which--which proved conclusively that--that the entertainment industry was marketing adult-rated products to our children. Now that is just unacceptable. And--and one finding was that they were actually using 10- to 12-year-olds to test-screen adult-rated products. When that report came out, Al Gore and I said to the entertainment industry, `Stop it. And if you don't stop it in six months, we're going to ask the Federal Trade Commission to take action against you.' There was no similar strong response from our opponents. We repeated that message when we went to Los Angeles; I repeat it today. We will not stop until the entertainment industry stops marketing its products to--to our children.

Unfortunately, I'm running out of time, but let me just say that Al Gore and I...

SHAW: You're out.

Sen. LIEBERMAN: I'm out? Maybe I can come back to it.

SHAW: No, please continue. You have about 10 seconds. Pardon the interruption.

Sen. LIEBERMAN: All right. A--A--Al Gore and I agree on most everything. The--we disagree on some things, and he said to me from the beginning, `Be yourself. That's why I chose you. Don't change a single position you have.' And I have not changed a single position since Al Gore nominated me to be his vice president.

SHAW: Gentlemen, now closing statements. A prior coin toss has determined that you begin, Senator Lieberman.

Sen. LIEBERMAN: Thanks, Bernie. That went--went very quickly. Thank you, Bernie, and--and thanks, Dick Cheney, for a very good debate.

I--I'm told that tens of millions of people have been watching this debate tonight. I--I must say that I wish one more person were here to--to watch it, and that's my dad, who died 15 years ago. If my dad were here, I would have the opportunity to tell him that he was right when he taught me that, in America, if you have faith, work hard and play by the rules, there is nothing you cannot achieve. And here I am. Even the son of a man who started working the night shift on a bakery truck can end up being a candidate for vice president of the United States. That says a lot about the character of this nation and the goodness of you, the American people.

I will tell you that Hadassah and I have traveled around this country in the last couple of months and met thousands and thousands of parents, just like our moms and dads, hardworking, middle-class people paying their taxes, doing the jobs that keep the country running, trying so hard to teach their kids right from wrong and believing, in their hearts, that their kids can make it. And I agree with them. But to make it, they need a leader who will stand up and fight for them, for good education--the best education in the world, for a sound retirement system, for prescription drug benefits for their parents and for a government that is fiscally responsible, balances the budget, keeps interest rates down so that it can afford to buy a home or to--to send their kids to college. To me, Al Gore is that leader and will be that kind of president.

You know, for 224 years, Americans have dreamed bigger dreams and tried bolder solutions than any other people on Earth. Now is not the time to settle for less than we can be. As good as things are today, Al Gore and I believe that with your help and God's help, we can make the future of this good and blessed country even better. Thank you. God bless you, and good night.

SHAW: Mr. Secretary.

Mr. CHENEY: Bernie, I want to thank you and Joe as well. I've enjoyed the debate this evening. And, also, I want to thank the folks here at Centre College in Danville, Kentucky. They've really done a tremendous job of making this possible.

This is a very important decision we're going to make on November 7th. We really have a fundamental choice between whether or not we continue with our old ways of big government, high taxes and evermore intrusive bureaucracy or whether we take a--a new course for a new era. Governor Bush and I want to pursue that new course. We want to reform the Social Security system to guarantee that the benefits will be there for our retired folks, as well as make it possible for our young people to invest a portion of their payroll tax into a retirement account that they'll control, give them greater control over their own lives. We want to reform the Medicare system, again, to make certain the benefits are there for our senior citizens, but also to provide prescription drug coverage for them and to give them a range of choices in terms of the kind of insurance they have.

We want to reform the education system. We want to restore our public schools to the greatness that they once represented, so that every parent has the opportunity to choose what's best for their child and so that every child has an opportunity to share in the American dream. We also want to reform the tax code. We think it's very important now that we have a surplus that a portion of that surplus go back to the people who earned it. It's not the government's money; it's your money. You're entitled to it, and we'd like to see to it that we provide tax relief for everybody who pays taxes.

Finally, we think it's very important to rebuild the US military. The military is in trouble. The trends are in the wrong direction. They're the finest men and women in--in uniform that you'll find anyplace in the world, but they deserve our support, they deserve the resources that we need to provide for them, and they deserve good leadership. George Bush is the man to do this. I've seen him do it in Texas. What we need is to be able to reach across the aisle, put together coalitions of Republicans and Democrats and build the kinds of coalitions that will get something done finally in Washington.

George Bush is a good man, an honorable man, a man of great integrity. He'll make a first-rate president.

SHAW: Secretary Cheney, Senator Lieberman, your debate now joins American political history. We thank you.

Sen. LIEBERMAN: Thank you, Bernie.

SHAW: Quite welcome. Thank you.

Sen. LIEBERMAN: It was a great evening.

You know, that went a lot more quickly than I thought.

Mr. CHENEY: I took my watch off. I didn't wear my watch.

Sen. LIEBERMAN: They wouldn't let you wear a watch.

SHAW: I just have a little bit here.

And, of course, the Bluegrass State, Kentucky. Ladies and gentlemen, please join my colleague, moderator Jim Lehrer, for the next presidential debate next Wednesday night at Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. For the Commission on Presidential Debates, I'm Bernard Shaw. Good night from Danville, Kentucky.

Gentlemen...

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