Mr. JIM LEHRER (Moderator):
Good evening from Waite Chapel at Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem,
North Carolina. I'm Jim Lehrer of "The News Hour" on PBS. Welcome to this
second Election 2000 debate between the Republican candidate for president,
Governor George W. Bush of Texas, and the Democratic candidate, Vice President
Al Gore.
These debates are sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. The
format and the rules are those negotiated by representatives of the two
campaigns. Only the subjects tonight and the questions are mine. The format
tonight is that of a conversation. The only prevailing rule is that no single
response can ever, ever exceed two minutes. The prevailing rule for the
audience here in the hall is, as always, absolute quiet, please.
Good evening, Governor Bush, Vice President Bush--Vice President Gore. The
end of our 90 minutes last week in Boston, the total time each of you took was
virtually the same. Let's see if we can do the same tonight, or come close.
Governor Bush, the first question goes to you. One of you is about to be
elected the leader of the single most powerful nation in the world
economically, financially, militarily, diplomatically, you name it. Have you
formed any guiding principles for exercising this enormous power?
Governor GEORGE W. BUSH (Republican Presidential Candidate): I have. I have.
First question is: What's in the best interests of the United States? What's
in the best interests of our people? When it comes to foreign policy, that'll
be my guiding question: Is it in our nation's interests? Peace in the Middle
East is in our nation's interests. Having a hemisphere that is free for trade
and peaceful is in our nation's interests. Strong relations in the--Europe is
in our nation's interest.
I've thought a lot about what it means to be the president. I also understand
s--that an administration is not one person, but an administration is
dedicated citizens who are called by the president to serve the country, to
serve a cause greater than self, and so I've thought about an administration
of--of people who represent all America, but people who understand my
compassionate and conservative philosophy.
I haven't started naming names, except for one person, and that's Mr. Richard
Cheney, who I thought did a great job the other night. He's a vice
presidential nominee who represents--who--I think people got to see why I
picked him. He's a man of solid judgment, and he's going to be a person to
stand by my side. One of the things I've done in Texas is I've been able to
put together a good team of people. I've been able to set clear goals--the
goals are to be an education system that leaves no child behind; Medicare for
our seniors; a Social Security system that's safe and secure; foreign policy
that's in our nation's interest and a strong military--and then bring people
together to achieve those goals. That's what a chief executive officer does.
So I've thought long and hard about the honor and--of--of being the president
of the United States.
Mr. LEHRER: Vice President Gore?
Vice President AL GORE (Democratic Presidential Candidate): Yes, Jim, I've
thought a lot about that particular question, and I see our greatest
natural--national strength coming from what we stand for in the world. I see
it as a--a question of values. It is a great tribute to our founders that,
224 years later, this nation is now looked to by the peoples on every other
continent and the peoples from every part of this Earth as a kind of model
for--for what their future could be. And I don't think that's just a--the
kind of an exaggeration that we take pride in as Americans. It's really true.
Even the ones that sometimes shake their fists at us, as soon as they have
a--a change that allows the people to speak freely, they're wanting to develop
some kind of a blueprint that will help them be like us more: freedom, free
markets, political freedom.
So I think, first and foremost, our power ought to be wielded to--in--in--in
ways that form a more perfect union. The power of example is America's
greatest power in the world, and that means, for example, standing up for
human rights. It means addressing the problems of injustice and inequity
along lines of race and ethnicity here at home, because in all these other
places around the world, where they're having these terrible problems, when
they feel hope, it is often because they see in us a reflection of their
potential.
So--so we've got to enforce our civil rights laws. We've got to deal with
things like racial profiling. And we have to keep our military strong. We
have the strongest military, and I'll do whatever is necessary, if I'm
president, to make sure that it stays that way. But our real power comes, I
think, from our values.
Mr. LEHRER: Should the people of the world look at the United States,
Governor, and say--should they fear us, should they welcome our involvement,
should they see us as a friend to everybody in the world? How do you--how
would you project us around the world, as president?
Gov. BUSH: Well, I think they ought to look at us as a--as a country that
understands freedom; where it doesn't matter who you are or how you're raised
or where you're from, that you can succeed. I don't think they ought to look
at us with envy. It really depends upon how the--how our nation conducts
itself in foreign policy. If we're an arrogant nation, they'll--they'll
resent us. If we're a humble nation, but strong, they'll welcome us.
And s--our nation is--stands--stands alone right now in the world in terms of
power, and that's why we've g--we've got to be humble, and--and yet project
strength in a--in a way that promotes freedom. So I don't--I don't--I don't
think they ought to look at us in any way other than what we are. We're a
freedom-loving nation, and if we're an arrogant nation, they'll--they'll view
us that way, but if we're a humble nation, they'll respect us.
Mr. LEHRER: A humble nation.
Vice Pres. GORE: I agree with that. I agree with that. I--I think that one
of the problems that we have faced in the world is that we are so much more
powerful than any single nation has been in relationship to the rest of the
world than at any time in--in--in history--that I know about anyway--that
there is some resentment of--of US power. So I think that the--the idea of
humility i--is--is an important one.
But I think that we also have to have a sense of mission in the world, and
w--we have to protect our capacity to--to push forward what America is all
about. That means not only military strength and our values, it also means
keeping our economy strong. You know, in the last--oh, two decades ago, it
was routine for leaders of foreign countries to come over here and say, `You
guys have got to do something about these horrendous deficits because it's
causing tremendous problems for the rest of the world,' and we were lectured
to all the time. The fact that we have the strongest economy in history
today--it's not good enough, we need to do more--but the fact that it is so
strong enables us to project the power for good that America can represent.
Mr. LEHRER: Does that give us--does our--our wealth, our good economy, our
power, bring with it special obligations to the rest of the world?
Gov. BUSH: Yes, it does. Take, for example, Third World debt. I think--I
think we ought to be giv--forgiving Third World debt under certain conditions.
I think, for example, if we're convinced that a Third World country that's got
a lot of debt would--would reform itself, that the money wouldn't go into the
hands of a few, but would go to help people, then I think it makes sense for
us to use our wealth in that way. Or to trade debt for--for valuable rain
forest land makes eminent sense.
Yes, we--we do have an obligation in the world, but we can't be all things to
all people. We can help build coalitions, but we can't put our troops all
around the world. We can lend money, but we've got to do it wisely. We--we
shouldn't be lending money to--to corrupt officials. And so we've got to be
guarded in our generosity.
Mr. LEHRER: Well, let's go through some of the specifics now. New question,
Vice President Gore, the governor mentioned the Middle East. Here, we're
talking at this stage of the game about diplomatic power that we have. What
do you think the United States should do n--should do right now to resolve
that conflict over there?
Vice Pres. GORE: The first priority has to be on ending the violence,
dampening down the tensions that have risen there. We need to--to call upon
Syria to release the three Israeli soldiers who have been captured. We need
to insist that Arafat send out instructions to--to--to halt some of the
provocative acts of violence that have--have been going on. I--I think that
we also have to keep a--a weather eye toward Saddam Hussein, because he's
taking advantage of this situation to, once again, make--make threats, and he
needs to understand that he--he's not only dealing with Israel, he--he is
dealing--he's dealing with us if he--if he is making the kind of threats that
he's talking about there.
The--the use of diplomacy in this situation has already--well, it goes hour by
hour and day by day now, and it's a very tense situation there--but in the
last 24 hours, there has been some subsiding of the violence there. It's too
much to hope that this is going to continue, but I do hope that it will
continue. Our country has been very active, with regular conversations with
th--the leaders there, and w--we just have to take it day to day right now.
But one thing I would say where diplomacy is concerned, Israel should--should
feel absolutely secure about one thing. Our bonds with Israel are--are larger
than agreements or disagreements on some details of diplomatic initiatives.
They are historic, they are strong and they are enduring. And our ability to
serve as an honest broker is a val--is something that we need to shepherd.
Mr. LEHRER: Governor?
Gov. BUSH: Well, I think during the campaign, particularly now during this
difficult period, we ought to be speaking with one voice, and I appreciate the
way the administration has worked hard to calm the tensions. Like the vice
president, I call on Chairman Arafat to have his people pull back to make the
peace.
I think credibility's going to be very important in the future in the Middle
East. I want everybody to know, should I be the president, Israel's going to
be our friend. I'm going to stand by Israel. Secondly, that I think it's
important to reach out to moderate Arab nations, like Jordan and Egypt, Saudi
Arabia and Kuwait. It's important to be friends with people when you don't
need each other, so that when you do, there's a strong b--b--bond of
friendship, and that's going to be particularly important in dealing, not only
with situations such as now occurring in Israel, but with Saddam Hussein. The
coalition against Saddam has fallen apart--or it's unraveling, let's put it
that way. The sanctions are being--are being violated. There's--we don't
know whether he's developing weapons of mass destruction--he better not be,
or there's going to be a consequence, should I be the president.
But it's important to have credibility, and credibility is formed by being
strong with your friends and resolute in your determination. It's one of the
reasons why I think it's important for this nation to develop an
anti-ballistic missile system that we can share with our allies in the Middle
East, if need be, to keep the peace; to be able to say to the Saddam Husseins
of the world or the Iranians, `Don't dare threaten our friends.' It's also
important to keep a strong--ties in the Middle East, with credible ties,
because of the energy crisis we're now in. After all, a lot of the energy is
produced from--from the Middle East. And so I--I appreciate what the
administration is doing. I--I hope you'd get a sense of, should I be
fortunate to be president, how my administration will react to the Middle
East.
Mr. LEHRER: So you don't believe, Vice President Gore, that we should take
sides in this and resolve this right now? A lot of people pushing, `Hey,
we--the United States should declare itself and--and not be so neutral in this
particular situation.'
Vice Pres. GORE: Well, we st--we stand with--we stand with Israel, but we
have maintained the ability to serve as an honest broker, and one of the
reasons that's important is that Israel cannot have direct dialogue with some
of the people on the other side of conflicts, especially during times of
tension, unless that dialogue comes through us. And--and i--if we throw away
that ability to serve as an honest broker, then we have thrown aw--we will
have thrown away a strategic asset that's important, not only to us, but also
to Israel.
Mr. LEHRER: Do you agree with that, Governor?
Gov. BUSH: I do. I do think this, though. I think that when it comes to
timetables, it can't be a United States' timetable as to how the--as to how
discussions take place. It's got to be a timetable that all parties can agree
to, other tha--you know, like the Palestinians or the Israelis. Secondly, any
lasting peace is going to have to be a peace that's good for both sides, and,
therefore, the term honest broker makes sense. I--whether it--th--this
current administration's worked hard to keep the parties at the table. I
s--I--I will try to do the same thing. But it won't be on my timetable. It
will be on the timetable that people are comfortable with in the Middle East.
Mr. LEHRER: People watching here tonight, very interested in Middle East
policy, and they're so interested that they want to make a--they want to base
their vote on differences between the two of you, as president, how you would
handle Middle East policy. Is there any difference?
Vice Pres. GORE: I haven't heard a big difference right in--in the last few
exchanges.
Gov. BUSH: Well, I th--I don't--it's hard to tell. I think that--you--you
know, I--I would hope to be able to convince people I could handle the Iraqi
situation better. I mean, we don't...
Mr. LEHRER: You mean--Saddam Hussein, you mean?
Gov. BUSH: Yes. And I...
Mr. LEHRER: You can get him out of there?
Gov. BUSH: I'd like to, of course, and I presume this administration would as
well. But we--we don't know. There's no inspectors now in--in--in Iraq. The
coalition that was in place isn't as strong as it used to be. He is a--he is
a danger. We don't want him fishing in troubled waters in the Middle East.
Mr. LEHRER: You can...
Gov. BUSH: And it's going to be hard to--it's going to be important to
rebuild that coalition to keep the pressure on him.
Mr. LEHRER: You feel that is a failure of the Clinton administration?
Gov. BUSH: I do.
Mr. LEHRER: Mr. Vice President?
Vice Pres. GORE: Well, when--when I--wh--when I got to be a part of the
current administration, it was right after--I was one of the few members of my
political party to support former President Bush in the Persian Gulf War
resolution, and at the end of that war, for whatever reasons, it was not
finished in a way that removed Saddam Hussein from power. I know there're all
kinds of circumstances and explanations, but the fact is that that's the
situation that--that was left wh--when I--when I got there. And we have
maintained the sanctions.
Now I want to go further. I want to give robust support to the groups that
are--are trying to overthrow Saddam Hussein. And I know there're allegations
that they're too weak to do it, but that's what they said about the forces
that were opposing Milosevic in--in Serbia. A--and--and, you know, the--the
policy of enforcing sanctions against Serbia has just resulted in a
spectacular victory for democracy, just in the past week. And--and i--it
seems to me that, having taken so long to see the sanctions work there,
building upon the policy of containment that was successful over a much longer
period of time against the former Soviet Union, in the Communist bloc, it
seems a little early to--to--to declare that we should give up on the--on the
sanctions.
I--I--I know the governor is not necessarily saying that, but, you know, all
of these flights that have come in, all of them have been in accordance with
the sanctions regime, I'm told, except for three, where they notified. And
they're trying to break out of the box, there's no question about it. I don't
think they should be allowed to.
Mr. LEHRER: Are you--did he correct you--did he state your position
correctly? You're not calling for eliminating the sanctions, are you?
Gov. BUSH: No, of course not, absolutely not. I--I--I want them to be
tougher.
Mr. LEHRER: Right. Let's go on to Milosevic and--and Yugoslavia, and it
falls into the area of our military power. Governor, new question. Should
the fall of Milosevic be seen as a triumph for US military intervention?
Gov. BUSH: I--I think it's a triumph. I--I thought that the president made
the right decision in--in--in joining NATO and bombing Serbia. I supported
them when they did so. I called upon the Congress not to hamstring the
administration and--in terms of forcing troop withdrawals on a timetable that
wasn't in necessarily our best interests or fit our nation's strategy. And so
I think it's good public policy. I think it worked. And--and--and I'm--I'm
pleased I took the dec--I made the decision I made. I'm pleased the president
made the decision he made, because freedom took hold in that part of the
world. And we--there's a lot work left to be done, however.
Mr. LEHRER: But--but it--you think it would not have happened--do you
belie--do you think that Milosevic would not have fallen if the United States
and NATO had not intervened militarily? Is this a legitimate use of our
military power?
Gov. BUSH: Yes, I think it is. Absolutely. I--I don't think he would have
fallen had we not used in--force. And I know there are some in my party that
disagreed with that sentiment, but I--I supported the president. I thought he
made the right decision to do so. I didn't think he necessarily made the
right decision to take land troops off the table right before we committed
ourselves offensively, but nevertheless, I--it worked. The administration
deserves credit for having made it work.
It is important for NATO to have it work. It's important for NATO to be
strong and confident to help keep the peace in Europe. And one of the reasons
I felt so strongly that the United States needed to participate was because of
our relations with NATO. And NATO's going to be an important part of keeping
the peace in the future.
Now there's more work to do. W--remains to be seen how--whether or not there
going to be a political settlement to Kosovo, and I certainly hope there is
one. I've alv--also on record as saying, at some point in time, I hope our
European friends become the peacekeepers in Bosnia and in the Balkans. I hope
that they put the troops on the ground, so that we can withdraw our troops and
focus our military on fighting and winning war.
Mr. LEHRER: Mr. Vice President?
Vice Pres. GORE: Well, I--I've been kind of a hard-liner on this issue for
more than eight years. When I was in the Senate, before I became vice
president, I was pushing for stronger action against Milosevic. He caused the
deaths of so many people. He--he was the last Communist Party boss there, and
then he became a--a dictator that--by some other label, he was still
essentially a Communist dictator. And, unfortunately, now he is trying to
reassert himself in Serbian politics already. Just today the members of his
political party said that they were going to ignore the orders of the new
president of Serbia and that they question his legitimacy. And he's still
going to try to be actively involved. He is an indicted war criminal. He
should be held accountable.
Now I--I did want to pick up on one of the--the statements earlier, and maybe
I have heard--maybe I've heard the previous statements wrong, Governor. In
some of the discussions we've had about when it's appropriate for the US to
use force around the world, at times the--the--the standards that you've laid
down have given me the impression that if it's--if it's something like a
genocide taking place or what they called ethnic cleansing in--in Bosnia, that
that alone would not be--that--that that wouldn't be the kind of situation
that would cause you to think that the US ought to--to get involved with--with
troops.
Now there have to be other factors involved for me to want to be involved.
But by itself, that, to me, can bring into play a fundamental American
strategic interest because I think it's based on our values. Now have I got
that wrong?
Gov. BUSH: Well, I s...
Mr. LEHRER: Governor?
Gov. BUSH: OK, yeah. I'm trying to figure out who the questioner was.
Mr. LEHRER: All right. Well...
Vice Pres. GORE: I'm...
Gov. BUSH: If I think it's in our nation's strategic interest, I'll commit
troops. I thought it was in our strategic interests to keep Milosevic in
check because of our relations in NATO, and that's why I took the position I
took. I think it's important for NATO to be strong and confident. I felt
like an unchecked Milosevic would--would harm NATO. And--and so it depends on
the situation, Mr. Vice President.
Mr. LEHRER: Well, let's kee--let's stay on the subject for a moment. New
question related to this. There've been--I figured this out: In the last 20
years, there have been eight major actions involving the introduction of US
ground, air or naval forces. Let me name them: Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, the
Persian Gulf, Somalia, Bosnia, Haiti, Kosovo. If you had been president, are
any of those interventions--would any of those interventions not have
happened?
Vice Pres. GORE: Can you run through the list again?
Mr. LEHRER: Sure. Lebanon?
Vice Pres. GORE: I--I--I thought that was a mistake.
Mr. LEHRER: Grenada?
Vice Pres. GORE: I supported that.
Mr. LEHRER: Panama?
Vice Pres. GORE: I supported that one.
Mr. LEHRER: Persian Gulf?
Vice Pres. GORE: Yes, I voted for it, supported it.
Mr. LEHRER: Somalia?
Vice Pres. GORE: Well, of course, in--that--that--again, no, I--I think that
that was ill-considered. I did support it at the time. It was in the
previous administration, in the Bush-Quayle administration. And I think, in
retrospect, the lessons there are ones that we--that we--we should take--take
very, very seriously.
Mr. LEHRER: Bosnia?
Vice Pres. GORE: Oh, yes.
Mr. LEHRER: Haiti.
Vice Pres. GORE: Yes.
Mr. LEHRER: And then Kosovo.
Vice Pres. GORE: Yes.
Mr. LEHRER: We talked about that. Want me to do it with you, go through this
line? No. You want to go--Lebanon?
Gov. BUSH: Not by--I'll be--let me c--make--make a couple comments.
Mr. LEHRER: Sure. Absolutely. Sure.
Gov. BUSH: Somalia started off as a humanitarian mission and then changed
into a nation-building mission, and that's where the mission went wrong. The
mission was changed, and as a result, our nation paid a price. And so I don't
think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation-building. I think
our na--our troops ought to be used to fight and win war. I think our troops
ought to be used to--to help overthrow a dictator that's in our--and it--when
it's in our best interests. But in this case, it was a nation-building
exercise. And same with Haiti, I wouldn't have supported either.
Mr. LEHRER: What about Lebanon?
Gov. BUSH: Yes.
Mr. LEHRER: Grenada?
Gov. BUSH: Yes.
Mr. LEHRER: Panama?
Gov. BUSH: Yes.
Mr. LEHRER: Obviously the Pers...
Gov. BUSH: Well, some of them, I've got a conflict of interest on, if you
know what I mean.
Mr. LEHRER: Right. I do. I do. Your--your--your--and the Persian Gulf
obviously...
Gov. BUSH: Yeah.
Mr. LEHRER: ...and--and Bosnia.
Gov. BUSH: Yeah.
Mr. LEHRER: And you've already talked about--about Kosovo. But the reverse
side of the question, Governor, that Vice President Gore mentioned, for
instance, 600,000 people died in Rwanda in 1994. There was no US
intervention. There was no intervention from the outside world. Was that a
mistake not to intervene?
Gov. BUSH: I think the administration did the right thing in that case. I
do. It was a horrible situation. No one liked to see it on our--you know, on
our TV screens. But it's a case where we need to make sure we've got a--you
know, kind of a--an early warning system in place, in places where there could
be ethnic cleansing and genocide, the way we saw it there in--in Rwanda. And
that's a case where we need to ba--you know, use our influence to--to have
countries in Africa come together and help deal with the situation. The
administration--it seems like we're having a great love fest tonight, but the
administration made the right decision on training Nigerian troops for
situations just such as this in Rwanda. And--and so I thought they made the
right decision not to send US troops into Rwanda.
Mr. LEHRER: Do you have any second thoughts on that, based on what you said a
moment ago about genocide and...
Vice Pres. GORE: I'd like to come back to the--to the question of
nation-building, but let me address this question directly first.
Mr. LEHRER: We'll do that.
Vice Pres. GORE: Fine. We did actually send troops into Rwanda to help with
the humanitarian relief measures. My wife, Tipper, who--who's here, actually
went on a--a military plane with General Shalikashvili on--on--on one of those
flights. But I--I think, in retrospect, we were too late getting in there.
We could have saved more lives if we had acted earlier. But I do not think
that it was an example of a--a conflict where we should have put our troops in
to try to separate the--the parties, for this reason, Jim.
One of my--one of the criteria that I think is important in deciding when and
if we should ever get involved around the world is whether or not--whether
we--our national security interest is involved, if--if we can really make the
difference with military force, if we've tried everything else, if we have
allies. In the Balkans, we had allies--NATO--ready, willing and able to--to
go and--and carry a big part of the burden. In Africa, we did not. Now we
have tried--our country's tried to create an Africa crisis response team
there, and we've met some resistance. We have had some luck with Nigeria, but
in Sierra Leone and--and that--now that Nigeria has become a--a democracy--and
we hope it stays that way, then--then maybe we can build on that.
But because we had no allies, and because it was very unclear that we could
actually accomplish what we would want to accomplish by putting military
forces there, I--I think it was the right thing not to jump in, as
heartbreaking as it was. But I think we should have come in much quicker with
the humanitarian mission.
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