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Special Report/Analysis: Second presidential debate

NEAL CONAN, host: And at the end of this second presidential debate, both candidates have stood up from the circular table at which they sat there at the Wait Chapel in Winston-Salem on the campus of Wake Forest University, shook each other's hand. They shook the hand of the moderator, Jim Lehrer from Public Television. Now they're embracing their families. This was, in general, a less contentious debate than the first one in Boston. Both candidates came out appearing very cautious. There was a lot of agreement between the two candidates on many points, perhaps symbolized by the embrace both of them gave later in the debate to the Golden Rule, `Love thy neighbor as thyself.'

There was, however, toward the end of the debate a series of sharp exchanges, including sharp jabs from Vice President Gore towards Governor Bush on health care in Texas and then disagreement on environmental issues toward the end.

The debate started with a lengthy and wide-ranging discussion of America's role in the world, the guiding principles that a president should take, the uses of American power, the crisis in the Middle East, whether the US and NATO intervention in Kosovo was justified and future policy in the Balkans. It was a quiz on foreign crises over the past 20 years and the use of American troops, and the wisdom of decisions not to intervene. There were broad questions on the use of military, political and economic power. On domestic issues, there was discussion of racial profiling, broad discussion of issues of civil rights and on rights for gays and lesbians. There was discussion of guns and gun control, health care, the environment and last whether Vice President Gore's allegedly exaggerations was a credible issue and an important one for the American people.

You're listening to coverage of the second presidential debate from NPR News.

NPR's Madeleine Brand is in Winston-Salem, and she joins us now. Madeleine, what can you tell us about the instant reaction there in the media center?

MADELEINE BRAND reporting: You know--well, let the spin begin. There are hundreds of reporters here, and already, the candidates' supporters are now working the room. Their assistants are holding up big signs behind them saying who they are, so reporters can scurry over and interview them. I just saw Michigan Governor John Engler. He just walked in. Bush campaign strategist Karl Rove is also here.

And at least in the spinning war here in the press center, Gore won at least with the number of pieces of paper. I counted 10 to 7 pieces that I have that I have just barely time to skim through. And mainly a lot of them argued over foreign policy. The two talked about that at length. And Bush's people say Gore didn't advocate overthrowing Saddam Hussein in '91. Gore says he did. Gore's people say Bush never thought Africa was important. Bush says corruption increased in Russia under the Clinton administration, competing spin over whether or not Bush supported hate crimes legislation in Texas. The governor says there's one on the books. It was there since '93. Gore says that was passed under Bush's predecessor, Democrat Ann Richards, and that he declined to pass a more precise bill last year. It's terribly difficult to sort out the flurry of competing claims on the fly like this.

CONAN: Well, the spinmeisters are skilled in their profession, of course, but any obvious signs of either alarm or jubilation particular in one camp or the other?

BRAND: You know, I haven't seen that so far. Here in the press center, however, there were several moments of laughter at moments during the debate. And most of them were when Gore either inadvertently or on purpose referred to some of his mistakes from the last debate. For example, he said something like, `It's a tribute to the Founding Fathers that people all over the Earth look at us.' And he said, `I don't think that's an exaggeration.' And whether or not he intended that to be funny, here at least, reporters burst out laughing because as he admitted at the end had a problem with exaggerating in the first debate.

CONAN: Curious that that came up at the last question. Was there any reaction to that coming up at the end? That seemed to be a waist-high fastball, if you will, for Governor Bush.

BRAND: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And here, actually, people were paying a lot of attention. Earlier when the candidates went into their standard stump speeches that we had heard before and we've heard over and over and over again, on the campaign trail, there was just a lot of back-and-forth. People weren't paying attention. But there, that's when the debate got a little spicy, and reporters here were tapping madly at their computers.

CONAN: Madeleine Brand, thank you very much.

BRAND: You're welcome. Thank you.

CONAN: Before we go on with our discussion, I should quote a passage that came out from Senator John Glenn earlier today. Quote, "I think the press, with all due respect, too often deals with the superficial things about who had a grimace or who didn't or who picked his nose and who didn't or something which is not exactly the defining moment to me," said the four-term retired senator. "Debates can be overdone in importance, I think, because people tend to dwell on what can be looked at as the trivia of the debate instead of the real meat and substance of it."

We'll get to the meat and substance, but for those of you listening on the radio, both men wore dark suits. They both wore white shirts--a blue tie for Vice President Gore; a red one for Governor Bush.

Joining us now to help make some sense of the meat and substance, to borrow Senator Glenn's word, of tonight's debate, we turn to NPR senior news analyst Daniel Schorr.

Dan, welcome.

DANIEL SCHORR reporting: I'm glad to be here. I found it very interesting tonight. It was quite different, I think, from the first debate. In the first place, it started with Vice President Gore very much on the defensive and having to make jokes about exaggeration and things like that because he had to be very careful not to repeat what are perceived to have been the stylistic errors of his first debate.

Secondly, I thought that on the whole that Governor Bush looked and remained very confident all through the debate, whereas Vice President Gore, at times, was looking towards him as though to wonder how he was going to handle this latest onslaught on him. I mean, I have to say this, not because I ever want it to be that way, but if one has to judge, I would have to say that on points tonight, that on almost everything on both foreign policy, incidentally, and on domestic policy, that Governor Bush came out ahead.

CONAN: Joining us from member station KPLU in Tacoma, Washington, NPR political analyst Elizabeth Arnold. Hello, Elizabeth.

ELIZABETH ARNOLD reporting: Hi, Neal, you detail man, you.

CONAN: Well, thanks very much. Elizabeth, a lot of people thought that Vice President Gore went into this debate on the defensive. Did he leave it the same way?

ARNOLD: I don't know, Neal. I thought it was a very interesting debate for people who pay close attention because at least the first half of it, as Dan alluded to, centered on decisions a president could and will have to make: when to commit troops, how best to give foreign aid, as opposed to the promises and plans that we heard so much of in the first debate. That said, I'm not sure it was riveting or edifying for viewers flipping channels and wanting to watch baseball games.

Also noteworthy is the fact that this discussion format, Neal, was Bush's pick. This is what he wanted. He wanted to sit at this roundtable and be very informal. But I think it actually helped Gore, particularly with regard to foreign policy. And although no real new ground was plowed tonight, that there was a sense of that vision thing President Bush used to complain about. They both really had ample opportunity to talk about those things, though. And in terms of what one candidate inflicted on the other, I'd say Gore landed a few precise blows, specifically on the Texas record with regard to hate crimes and health care, and similarly, as you alluded to, Bush was given an easy opening on credibility and exaggeration right at the end there.

CONAN: Finally, joining us here in Studio 3A, Andy Kohut, the director of the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press.

Andy, welcome back.

Mr. ANDY KOHUT (Pew Research Center for the People and the Press): Happy to be here.

CONAN: And what was your take on the debate in general?

Mr. KOHUT: Well, it couldn't have been more different for the first 40 minutes or so. I mean, Jim Lehrer was desperate to find some areas of disagreement between these candidates. They largely were agreeing with each other, and they weren't bringing up campaign slogans and they weren't targeting demographic groups by what they were saying or the way they were saying it. You know, they were talking more about similarities, crediting similar approaches and the way in which they supported each other's policies or President Bush, in the case of Gore, or President Clinton, in the case of Governor Bush. And it was not a love-fest, but it was hard to see the crisp differences that they tried to establish so early in--just a week ago.

CONAN: Dan Schorr, a lot of people say a lot of people don't vote on foreign policy and...

SCHORR: Well...

CONAN: ...yet there was a very wide-ranging discussion, certainly the...

SCHORR: ...that's right.

CONAN: ...biggest discussion of foreign policy we've seen yet in this campaign.

SCHORR: Well, on big issues of foreign policy like Vietnam, people will vote, but in this case, what was very interesting was which way was Governor Bush going to play foreign policy. Was he going to try to find differences between him and the administration, Vice President Gore? He said, `On this, we speak with one voice.' Now that's very important because if you look at the speech that the governor made at the Citadel several months ago or the speech that Condaleezza Rice, who is his foreign policy adviser, one of them, made to the Republican Convention, they were talking almost in terms of unilateralism. We don't get involved in things unless they're in our national interest or interests--he makes it plural. I think that Gore was trying very hard to lead him into making such a unilateral statement, and I think that the governor knew that was coming and ducked away from it. He is willing, he says, to--military action to bring down a dictator. He said something that indicates that there are times when the American forces will have to be used. If the intention was to get him treed somewhere with unilateralism, that did not work tonight.

CONAN: Elizabeth, there was also a moment that almost seemed reminiscent of the pop quiz on foreign leaders very early in the campaign when, and Jim Lehrer asked them specifically about interventions over the past 20 years. And he went through, you know, Lebanon, Grenada--I can't remember them all--Panama and on down the list.

ARNOLD: Surely, if you can't, they can't be expected to, Neal. No, I thought that was fascinating, and I actually felt the whole--the time spent on sort of pursuing this notion of nation-building and when and when is it not in our national interests was really edifying. Gore went right down the line on military involvement over the last few decades without appearing to be too smart. He did a much better job, I think, and wasn't as overbearing as he was in the first debate.

CONAN: Didn't hear a single sigh.

ARNOLD: Bush went--no, no signs at all and no grimaces. Bush went into his prepared remarks about nation-building, and Jim Lehrer wouldn't let him get away with it. And when pushed on Rwanda and the subject of human rights, Gore was much more specific than Bush. Bush answered, you know, `Africa is important, but there's got to be priorities.' That said, though, it depends on who you're playing to. A majority of Americans are less than generous when it comes to troops overseas in conflicts where our national interest isn't clearly defined. But it was really, I thought, a very interesting moment in the debate because we've heard these slogans over and over: nation-building, and it was really pushed at--`OK, specifically, what do you mean here?'

CONAN: And just...

SCHORR: Elizabeth, could I ask you this because you've been following him so closely. He talked tonight of using American power humbly. Has he used that word humbly before as an expression of projecting American power around the world?

ARNOLD: Not specifically when it comes to American power. Humble is a favorite word. He loves to introduce people on the platform and says--Governor Mark Racicot of Montana, a humble leader. He uses the word a lot, but I haven't heard it used in reference to how the US should be viewed in terms of foreign intervention or by foreign countries.

CONAN: Go ahead, Andy. I was going to say...

Mr. KOHUT: I was struck by how much more relaxed and self-confident Governor Bush seemed.

CONAN: This would have seemed to have been the vice president's bailiwick here.

Mr. KOHUT: Yeah. And the governor was joking, `What the heck.' He was not stumbling over the names of foreign leaders. And he was summoning up facts and figures on everything from logging policy to the IMF and the World Bank. And Bush--I mean, Gore, on the other hand, seemed really trying to control himself and not interrupt too much. And, in fact, he made jokes about it. And he was much more measured, obviously, but perhaps so measured that he seemed a little restrained and almost on the defensive I think as Dan pointed out.

CONAN: Elizabeth, lest we forget, yes, there was some discussion of domestic policy as well towards the second half of the debate really. And that pointed up--really, that's where disagreement happened.

ARNOLD: Sure. Hate crimes--the exchange over hate crimes legislation and what happened in Texas and same-sex marriage--Gore saying he agrees with Dick Cheney and Joe Lieberman. I thought that Governor Bush came across as somewhat evasive on some of that until he was pushed. Guns, though--I thought Bush was effective on the gun question and turning it into a discussion of a cultural problem. You know, why is it that kids can kill other kids? This isn't just about trigger locks.

SCHORR: Yes. And I...

ARNOLD: But then on health care, you know, Gore went on the attack. I mean, I even said, `Whoa!' out loud while I was watching.

SCHORR: Right.

ARNOLD: He went on attack on Texas on the numbers in terms of uninsured. And Bush wouldn't refute the numbers; instead, you know, got into this, `Well, I care about kids,' and `What are you accusing me of?' I think on the environment, though, Gore sort of slipped back into smartest kid in the class on global warming, and some points he might have scored there were lost.

SCHORR: But I have a strange feeling after it is all over. Let's look at it as we were talking about this after last week's debate, where we were saying, `Now the vice president is going to have to do something to recover from that. The polls are beginning to slip in the direction of Bush.' People say it's never happened before, that after Labor Day, October, once the trend is set, that that trend should be reversed again. I'm not sure that's true, but it is certainly true that the trend has been changing and that this was now a debate where the vice president had the job of recovering from his mistakes of last week. If he was supposed to come out and say, `This is the really decisive debate and I won it,' I don't think he can.

ARNOLD: But, Dan, I wonder if people watch debates as a series. I mean, I wonder if we sort of handicapped the candidates a little too much. I mean, I watched tonight's debate with a couple of things in mind after just talking to undecideds, and isn't that who these candidates are really trying to reach? I mean, I thought that Bush needed to convince voters ...(technical difficulties) demeanor and intellect of being a world leader, a commander in chief. And Gore simply had to come across more likeable and less annoying and tone down the smartest kid in the class routine. And I think they both (technical difficulties) both defeated.

CONAN: Andy Kohut knows better than any of us. Is the electorate undecided or is it volatile?

Mr. KOHUT: Well, there's still 20 percent to 30 percent who say they might change their mind or they flat haven't made up their minds. So there's still a lot of people who haven't quite signed on with these candidates. And they're looking not only for specific issues, but a feel for the candidates. Debates don't generally help or hurt a candidate because of what he says about a specific issue but some sense that he gives the electorate about his capabilities or lack thereof. And I guess I agree with Elizabeth that they both sort of did what they were told they had to do. And it's not clear who did the better job of completing their assignment this evening.

CONAN: Right. They want to wait and see the numbers in a couple of days.

SCHORR: But if we have said that Gore is always ahead on issues and maybe Bush is ahead on personality, Bush was not behind on issues tonight. He made his case on almost every point. And so I don't think you can walk away from that and say, `Well, nice guy, this governor, but he certainly doesn't express himself well when it comes to national policy. He didn't make any errors of coherence on any of the issues of foreign policy that he discussed today. He didn't mispronounce any names. And he sounded as though maybe he was qualified.

ARNOLD: But, Dan, was Gore behind on personality tonight because, boy, I felt when he delivered some of those attack lines, he could have been saying `Happy Birthday' to Bush, he was so relaxed and, you know, really in control.

CONAN: One thing I wanted to ask you, Elizabeth--and you spent a lot more time watching these candidates in the field. You can, I'm sure, recite their stump speeches by heart at this point.

SCHORR: But don't.

CONAN: But, please, don't.

ARNOLD: You heard it tonight.

CONAN: There is always a question: Did we see the real George Bush there on the stage in Winston-Salem tonight? Is that the real Al Gore or is this a carefully created and crafted image that their campaigns want to put forward or some combination in there?

ARNOLD: You bet. I mean, that's a great question, Neal. And I heard so many people say after the vice presidential debate, `Boy, these guys should be the presidential candidates. They're so at ease. They're so comfortable in their own skin.' Well, the point is, they're not running for president. They're the second man on the ticket, and they don't have to be excruciatingly controlled and aware of every word that comes out of their mouths. They can go home and the whole thing was cancelled and they could go on with their lives.

And so, no, I don't think you're going to see the real Bush or the real Gore in these debates. And you just--they're running for president. And I just think, you know, you can just hope to get glimmers. And I think we have a couple of glimmers now after two debates. I think Bush is at his best not necessarily on the fly, but when he can sort of can get back on his feet and launch into his stump speech, as he did tonight on his response to health care--and I think Gore is actually at his best when he diverts from it and gets conversational, at least what we may think is conversational and, in a more relaxed way, demonstrates his knowledge of any given subject.

CONAN: I wanted to ask you briefly--we just have a minute or so left in this segment--was there any one thing that you think this debate is going to be remembered for, Andy Kohut?

Mr. KOHUT: No. I think that this debate will be not as consequential as the first debate. And I think it might be overshadowed by what happens next week. I didn't see anything that might be a turning point now.

CONAN: Elizabeth Arnold?

ARNOLD: No. I think in a minor league way the attack on the record in Texas and then again the reiteration of Gore's problem with exaggeration--but I'm with Andy on this. I think the next debate is really going to be the ball game.

CONAN: And Daniel Schorr?

SCHORR: I want to just say that, you know, I have a list here, which I don't have time to read, of all the many times that the crucial thing happened during a second presidential debate. And someday, I'll give you that whole list. Tonight, I don't think anything like that happened. I don't think it changed the scenery. I don't think it gave us a whole new view and a new perspective on things. It was a second debate.

CONAN: Thanks to all three of you, NPR's Daniel Schorr and Elizabeth Arnold, and Andy Kohut, who directs the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press.

Just to recap what happened this evening, it began with a big question: Have the candidates formed a guiding philosophy for the exercise of the awesome power of the presidency? Mr. Bush said he guiding principle would be what was best for the United States and for its people. Mr. Gore said the guiding philosophy ought to be the values that set America apart in the world, the principles of the Founding Fathers, the principles of freedom and human rights. They agreed that efforts to restrain Slobodan Milosevic in Yugoslavia had helped the people of that country throw off his rule. Gore said the use of sanctions should also be pursued in Iraq; Bush said those sanctions need to be made more stringent and tougher demands ought to be made on Saddam Hussein.

Jim Lehrer asked about the police practice of racial profiling. Gore said it was an old practice and ran against what America was about at its core. He said it would be the first civil rights act of the 21st century in his administration. Mr. Bush said it was just flat wrong, not what America was all about. But he said he did not want to federalize the local police forces and that most police officers were good and honorable citizens. Mr. Gore agreed.

The vice president called for passing a hate crimes law to outlaw the stigmatization of individuals, such as the Texas murder victim James Bird. The governor said he had a hate crimes law in Texas, and the three men who had killed James Bird would be executed for that crime. Al Gore returned to the point to say that a hate crimes bill supported by the Bird family had died in a committee in Texas without the governor's support. Mr. Bush said no added law could punish murderers worse than execution.

In response to a question, George Bush said he supported marriage only between a man and a woman. He said he thought homosexuals had equal rights but should not have special rights, which he said amounted to special protective status. Mr. Gore said he supported proposed federal legislation to ban discrimination against homosexual in employment and in hiring.

The governor said he supported trigger locks for guns but not the registration of guns or for photo licenses to be presented to purchase guns. The vice president said he was for locks and licensing but not for registration of all guns.

Both men said they wanted to see health care made more available to children and eventually to all 40 million Americans now without health insurance. Mr. Gore said Texas ranked at the bottom of the list of states for insuring women, children and families. Mr. Bush said his state's percentage of uninsured had gone down, while the nation's had gone up. Mr. Bush also said that the jury for such questions was the state of Texas, which had elected him to back-to-back terms. He said he was not a hard-hearted person who did not care about children. The vice president said he hadn't questioned Bush's heart, rather, or qualities as a person, but rather, his priorities in budgeting and in government. He repeated his accusations that Bush's tax cuts would give more benefit to the wealthy than Mr. Bush's spending programs would give to health care, education and the military combined. George Bush replied that the top income earners paid a third of all taxes and ought to get one-fifth of the benefit for the tax cuts.

Mr. Gore said he would fight for environmental improvements that would strengthen the economy. The governor said he'd been an activist, environmental champion as governor of Texas, and he said the vice president had previously backed high energy taxes to pay for environmental clean-up.

(Credits)

CONAN: Join us for continued coverage of this evening's debate on "Morning Edition" and online. Our Web address is npr.org. The final presidential debate is next Tuesday evening, when Mr. Bush and Mr. Gore one last time in St. Louis, Missouri, have a town hall meeting style. Make a plan to join us then. That's next Tuesday, 9:00 Eastern, 6:00 Pacific. Good evening from Washington. I'm Neal Conan, NPR News.

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