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Intro

NEAL CONAN, host: From National Public Radio News, this is a special report. I'm Neal Conan. Tonight the major party candidates for president are on the campus of Washington University in St. Louis for the third and final presidential debate of the campaign. With three weeks left before Election Day, most analysts and polls say that Republican George W. Bush has edged in front of Democrat Al Gore but the race is still extremely close.

There is still a large percentage of voters who have yet to decide and they will form the audience tonight, both literally and figuratively. There are a hundred uncommitted voters from the St. Louis area surrounding the stage at the Athletic Complex at Washington University. They've been selected by the Gallup Organization and they will provide the questions this evening.

This less predictable format is the result of lengthy negotiations between the two campaigns. In the first debate, the candidates stood at lecterns. The second was a more informal setting sitting at a table. For this town hall style meeting, they have tall chairs and wireless microphones that will allow them to walk around the stage. All of these debates are sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates, a bipartisan organization that set up the rules for eligibility. No third party candidates qualified so Governor Bush and Vice President Gore have the stage to themselves. There will be a moment of silence to begin this evening's debate for Missouri Governor Mel Carnahan, who died with his son and a campaign aide last night.

Here is moderator Jim Lehrer.

The Debate

Mr. JIM LEHRER (Moderator): Good evening from the field house at Washington University in St. Louis. I'm Jim Lehrer of "The NewsHour" on PBS. And I welcome you to this third and final Campaign 2000 debate between the Democratic candidate for president, Vice President Al Gore, and the Republican candidate, Governor George W. Bush of Texas. Let's welcome the candidates now.

Vice President AL GORE (Democratic Presidential Candidate): Hey, Jim. How are you doing?

Mr. LEHRER: My pleasure. Good to see you.

Vice Pres. GORE: Good to see you.

Governor GEORGE W. BUSH (Republican Presidential Candidate): Good to see you.

Vice Pres. GORE: How you doing?

Gov. BUSH: Good to see you.

Mr. LEHRER: Governor. Welcome.

Gov. BUSH: ...(Unintelligible). Nice to see you all.

Vice Pres. GORE: Howdy. How are you-all?

Mr. LEHRER: Before proceeding tonight, we would like to observe a moment of silence in memory of Governor Mel Carnahan of Missouri, who, along with his son and his former chief of staff, died in a private plane crash last night near St. Louis.

A reminder, as we continue now, that these debates are sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. The formats and the rules were worked out by the commission and the two campaigns. Tonight's questions will be asked by St. Louis area voters who were identified as being uncommitted by the Gallup Organization. Earlier today, each of them wrote a question on a small card like this. Those cards were collected and then given to me this afternoon. My job, under the rules of the evening, was to decide the order the questions will be asked and to call on the questioners accordingly. I also have the option of asking follow-ups, which in order to get to more of the panels question, for the record, I plan to do sparingly and mostly for clarifications.

The audience participants are bound by the following rule: They shall not ask follow-up questions or otherwise participate in the extended discussion. And the questioner's microphone will be turned off after he or she completes asking the question. Those are the rules.

As in Winston-Salem last--last week, no single answer or response from a candidate can exceed two minutes. There is an audience here in the hall and they have promised to remain absolutely quiet as did their predecessors this year in Boston, Danville and Winston-Salem.

Before we begin, a correction from last week's debate. I was wrong when I said Vice President Gore's campaign commercials had called Governor Bush a bumbler. That specific charge was made in a press statement by Gore campaign spokesman Mark Fabiani, not in a TV Guide...

Gov. BUSH: I'm glad you clarified that.

Mr. LEHRER: ...in a TV--in a TV--in a TV ad.

Now let's go to the first question. Of over the 130 questions we received from this panel, we will begin with one of the 19 on health issues and it goes to you Mr. Vice President, and it will be asked by James Hankins. Mr. Hankins.

Mr. JAMES HANKINS (Audience Participant): How do you feel about HMOs and insurance companies making the critical decisions that affect people's lives instead of the medical professionals? And why are the HMOs and insurance companies not held accountable for--for their decisions?

Vice Pres. GORE: Mr. Hankins, I don't feel good about it, and I think we ought to have a Patients Bill of Rights to take the medical decisions away from the HMOs and give them back to the doctors and the nurses.

I want to come back and--and tell you why, but if you will forgive me, I would like to say something right now at the beginning of this debate, following on the moment of silence for Mel Carnahan and Randy Carnahan and Chris Sifford. Tipper and I were good friends with Mel and Randy, and I know that all of us here want to extend our sympathy and condolences to Jean and the family and to the Sifford family. And would I just like to say that this debate, in a way, is a living tribute to Mel Carnahan because he loved the vigorous discussion of ideas in our democracy. He was a fantastic governor of Missouri. This state became one of the top five in the nation for health care coverage for children under his leadership. One of the best in advancing all kinds of benefits for children to--to grow up healthy and strong.

And, of course, this debate also takes place at a time when the tragedy of the USS Cole is on our minds and hearts and insofar as the memorial service is tomorrow, I would like to also extend sympathy to the families of those who have died and those who are still missing and--and the injured.

Now, Mr. Hankins, I think that the--the situation that you described has gotten completely out of hand. Doctors are--are giving prescriptions they're recommending treatments, and then their--their recommendations are being overruled by HMOs and insurance companies. That is unacceptable. I support a strong national Patients Bill of Rights. It is actually a disagreement between us. The national law that is pending on this, the Dingell-Norwood bull--bill, a bipartisan bill, is one that I support and that the governor does not.

Mr. LEHRER: Time is up, Vice President. Two minutes response, Governor Bush.

Gov. BUSH: I--I, too, want to extend my prayers to the--and--and--and blessings, God's blessings on the families whose lives were up--overturned yeste--to--today--last night. It's a tragic moment.

Actually, Mr. Vice President, it's not true, I--I do support a national Patients Bill of Rights. As a matter of fact, I brought Republicans and Democrats together to do just that in the state of Texas to get a Patients Bill of Rights through. It requires a different kind of leadership style to do it, though. You see, in order to get something done on behalf of the people, you have to put partisanship aside. And that's what we did in my state. We've got one of the most advanced Patients Bill of Rights. It says, for example, that a woman can--doesn't have to go through a gatekeeper to go to her gynecologist. It says that you can't gag a doctor. A doctor can advise you. The HMO, the insurance company can't gag that doctor from giving you full advice. In this particular bill, it allows patients to choose a doctor, their own doctor if they want to.

But we did something else that was interesting. We're one of the first states that said you can sue an HMO for denying you proper coverage. Now there's what's called an Independent Review Organization that you have to go through first. It says if you've got a complaint with your insurance company, you can take your complaint to an objective body. And if the objective body rules on your behalf, the insurance company must follow those rules. However, if the--if--if the insurance company doesn't follow the findings of the IRO, then that becomes a cause of action in a court of law. It's time for our nation to come together and do what's right for the people, and I think this is right for the people. You know, I--I--I support a national Patients Bill of Rights, Mr. Vice President, and I--I want all people covered. I don't want the law to supercede good law like we've got in Texas.

Mr. LEHRER: Governor.

Gov. BUSH: I think...

Mr. LEHRER: Time is up, sir.

Vice Pres. GORE: Jim...

Mr. LEHRER: Yes, sir.

Vice Pres. GORE: ...we have a direct disagreement on this.

Mr. LEHRER: Just--just a minute, Mr. Vice President. I wanted to--you know, the ways the rules go here now, two minutes, two minutes and then I'll decide whether we go on.

Vice Pres. GORE: Right.

Mr. LEHRER: OK? So what I want to make sure is we understand here is before we go on to another question in the health area, would you agree that you two agree on a national Patients Bill of Rights?

Vice Pres. GORE: Absolutely...

Mr. LEHRER: Quickly.

Vice Pres. GORE: Absolutely not. I referred to the Dingell-Norwood bill. It is the bipartisan bill that is now pending in the Congress. The--the HMOs and the insurance companies support the other bill that's pending, the one that the Republican majority has put forward. They like it because it doesn't accomplish what I think really needs to be accomplished, to give the decisions back to the doctors and nurses and to give you a right of appeal to somebody other than the HMO or insurance company. Let you go to the nearest emergency room without having to call an HMO before you call 911, to let you see a specialift--a specialist if--if you need to. And it has strong bipartisan support. It is being blocked by the Republican leadership in the Congress...

Gov. BUSH: So...

Vice Pres. GORE: ...and I specifically would like to know whether Governor Bush will support the Dingell-Norwood bill, which is the main one pending.

Mr. LEHRER: Governor Bush, you may answer that if you'd like, but also I'd like to know how you see the differences between the two of you and we need to move on.

Gov. BUSH: Well, the difference is is that I can get it done, that I can get something positive done on behalf of the people. That's what the question in this campaign is about. It's not only what's your philosophy and what's your position on issues, but can you get things done? And I believe I can.

Mr. LEHRER: All right.

Vice Pres. GORE: What about the Dingell-Norwood bill?

Mr. LEHRER: All right. We're going to go now to another...

Gov. BUSH: I'm--I'm not quite through--let me finish, please.

Mr. LEHRER: All right. Go--go.

Gov. BUSH: I talked about the principles and the issues that I think are important in a Patients Bill of Rights. You know, there's this--this kind of Washington, DC, focus, `Well, it's in this committee or it's got this sponsor.' If I'm the president, we're going to have emergency room care, we're going to have gag orders, women will have direct access to OB-GYN, people will be able to take their HMO insurance company to court. That's what I've done in Texas and that's the kind of leadership style I'll bring to Washington.

Mr. LEHRER: All right. Another--the next question also on--on a health issue. It's from--it will be asked by Marie Payne Clappey. And it goes to Governor Bush.

Ms. MARIE PAYNE CLAPPEY (Audience Participant): Are either of you concerned with--I got to put my glasses on.

Gov. BUSH: Here you go. I've got...

Ms. CLAPEY: OK. Are either of you concerned with finding some feasible way to lower the price of pharmaceutical drugs, such as education on minimizing intake, revamp of the FDA process or streamline the drug companies' procedures instead of just finding more money to pay for them?

Gov. BUSH: Well, that's a great question. I--I think one of the problems we have, particularly for seniors, is there's no prescription drug coverage in Medicare and, therefore, when they have to try to purchase drugs, they do so on their own. There's no kind of collective bargaining, there's no power of purchasing amongst seniors. So I think step one to make sure prescription drugs is more affordable for seniors, and those are the folks who really rely upon prescription drugs a lot these days, is to reform the Medicare system, is to have prescription drugs as an integral part of Medicare once and for all.

The problem we have today is that, like the Patients Bill of Rights, particularly with health care, there's a lot of bickering in Washington, DC. It's kind of like a political issue as opposed to a people issue. So what I want to do is I want to call upon Republicans and Democrats to forget all the arguing and finger-pointing and come together and take care of our seniors with the prescrip--prescription drug program, that says we'll pay for the poor seniors, we'll help all seniors with prescription drugs.

In the meantime, I think it's important to have what's called immediate helping hand, which is direct money to states so that seniors, poor seniors don't have to choose between food and medicine. That's a--that's a part of an overall overhaul. But purchasing power is important. I'm against price controls. I think price controls would hurt our ability to continue important research and development. Drug therapies are replacing a lot of medicines a--as we used to know it. One of the most important things is to continue the research and development component and--of--and so I'm against price controls. Expediting drugs through the FDA makes sense, of course. Allowing--the new bill that was passed in the Congress made sense, to allow for, you know, drugs that were sold overseas to come back, and other countries to come back into the United States. That makes sense. But the best thing to do is to reform Medicare.

Mr. LEHRER: Vice President Gore, two minutes.

Vice Pres. GORE: All right. Here we go again. Now, look, if--if you want someone who will spin a lot of words describing a whole convoluted process and then end up supporting legislation that is supported by the big drug companies, this is your man. If you want someone who will fight for you and who will fight for the middle-class families and working men and women who are sick and tired of having their parents and grandparents pay higher prices for prescription drugs than anybody else, then I want to fight for you. And you asked the--the--a great question because it's not only seniors.

Listen, for 24 years I have never been afraid to take on the big drug companies. They do some great things. They discover great new cures and that's great. We want to--we want them to continue that. But they are now spending more money on advertising and promotion--You see all these ads?--than they are on research and development. And they're trying to artificially extend the monopoly patent protection so they can keep charging these very high prices. I want to streamline the approval of the competing generic drugs and the new kinds of treatments that can compete with them so that we drin--bring the price down for everybody.

Now, briefly, let me tell you how my prescription drug plan works. The governor talked about Medicare. I gi--I propose a real prescription drug benefit under Medicare for all seniors, all seniors. And here's how it works. You pick your own doctor and nobody can take that away from you. The doctor chooses the prescription that you need and nobody can overrule your doctor. You you go to your own pharmacy and then Medicare pays half the price. If you're poor, they pay all of it. If you have extraordinarily high costs, then they pay all over $4,000 out of pocket. And I'll bring new competition to bring the price down. And if you pass the big drug companies bill, nothing will happen.

Mr. LEHRER: All right, another health question that comes from Vickie French. And it's for you, Vice President Gore. Vickie French, where are you? Oh, there she is. Yes.

Ms. VICKIE FRENCH (Audience Participant): ...American people, we spend billions of dollars every year on taxes or pay billions of dollars in taxes. Would you be open to the idea of a national health care plan for everybody, and if not why? If so, is this something you would try to implement if you were elected into office and what would you do to implement this plan?

Vice Pres. GORE: I think that we should move step by step toward univers--universal health coverage, but I am not in favor of government doing it all. We've spent 65 years now o--on the development of a hybrid system, partly private, partly public. And 85 percent of our people have health insurance, 15 percent don't. That adds up to 44 million people. That is a national outrage. We have got to get health coverage for those who do not have it. And we've got to improve the quality for those who do with a Patients Bill of Rights that's real and that works, the Dingell-Norwood bill. And we have got to fill in the gaps in coverage by finally bringing parity for the treatment of mental illness because that's been left out. We've got to deal with long-term care.

Now here are the steps that I would take, first of all. I will make a commitment to bring health care coverage of high quality that is affordable to every single child in America within four years. And then we'll fill other gaps by covering the--the--the--the parents of those children when the family is poor or up to two and a half times the poverty rate. I want to give a tax credit for the purchase of individual health insurance plans. I want to give small business employers a tax credit, 25 percent, to encourage the--the providing of health insurance for the employees in--in small businesses. I want to give seniors who are--well, the near elderly. I don't like that term, because I'm just about in that category, but those 55-65 ought to be able to buy into Medicare for premiums that are reasonable and fair and significantly below what they have to--to get now.

Now we have a big--we have a big difference on this. And you need to know the record here. Under Governor Bush, Texas has sunk to be 50th out of 50 in health care--in health insurance for their citizens. Last week he said that they were spending $3.7 billion--$4.7 billion on this.

Mr. LEHRER: Mr. Vice President...

Vice Pres. GORE: OK. Time.

Mr. LEHRER: ...time is up. Governor Bush, two minutes.

Gov. BUSH: I'm absolutely opposed to a national health care plan. I don't want the federal government making decisions for consumers or for providers. I--I remember what--what the administration tried to do in 1993. They tried to have a national health care plan and, fortunately, it failed. I trust people. I don't trust the federal government. It's going to be one of the themes you hear tonight. I don't want the federal government making decisions on behalf of everybody.

There is an issue with the--the uninsured. There sure is. And we've got uninsured people in my state. Ours is a big state, fast-growing state. We share a common border with another nation. But we're providing health care for our people. That's one thing about insurance--that's a Washington term. Question is, are people getting health care? And we've got a strong safety net and there needs to be a safety net in America. There needs to be more community health clinics for--where the poor can go get health care. We need a program for the uninsured. They've been talking about it in Washington, DC. The number of uninsured have now gone up for the past seven years.

We need--we need a $2,000 credit, rebate for people--working people who don't have insurance. They can get in the marketplace and start purchasing insurance. We need to have--allow small businesses to write across--insurance across jurisdictional lines so small businesses can afford health care, small restaurants can afford health care. And so af--health care needs to be affordable and available. But we've got to trust people to make decisions with their lives. In the Medicare reform I talk about, it says if you're a senior, you can stay in Medicare if you like it, and that's fine, but we're going to give you other choices to choose if you want to do so, just like they do the federal employees, the people who work in Washington, DC, for the US Congress or the United States Senate. Get a variety of choices to make in their lives. And that's what we ought to do for all people in America.

Mr. LEHRER: Gov...

Gov. BUSH: Yes, sir. Sorry.

Mr. LEHRER: Governor? No.

Vice Pres. GORE: Can I follow up now?

Gov. BUSH: I'm not paying attention to the lights very well.

Mr. LEHRER: No, not right now. Not right now. Education...

Gov. BUSH: I'm trying to find my light.

Mr. LEHRER: These folks submitted 18--18 questions on--on education and the first one is that--that we--that we--will be asked on education will go to you, Governor, and will be asked by Angie Pettick. Angie Pettick, where are you? There--there she is, Governor, right there.

Gov. BUSH: Oh, thanks. Hi, Angie.

Ms. ANGIE PETTICK (Audience Participant): I've heard a lot about education and the need to hold teachers and schools accountable. And I certainly agree with that. But as an individual with an educational background and also a parent, I have seen a lot of instances where the parents are unresponsive to the teachers or flat out uninvolved in their child's education. How do you intend to not only hold the teachers and schools accountable but also hold parents accountable?

Gov. BUSH: Well, you--you know, it's hard to make people love one another. I wish I knew the law 'cause I'd darn sure sign it. I wish I knew the law that said all of us would be good parents. One of the things the next president must do is to remind people that if we're going to have a responsible period in America, that each of us must love our children with all of our heart and all our soul.

I happen to believe strong accountability encourages parental involvement, though. I--I think when you measure and post results on the Internet, or in the town newspapers, most parents say, `Wait a minute, my child's school isn't doing what I want it to do,' and, therefore, become involved in education. I recognize there are some who just don't seem to care. But there are a lot of parents who feel like everything is going well in their child's school, and all of a sudden they wake up and realize that wait a minute, standards aren't being met. That's why I'm so strong for accountability. I--I believe we ought to measure a lot--three, four, five, sixth, seventh, eighth grade. We do so in my state of Texas. One of the good things we've done in Texas is we've got strong accountability, because you can't cure unless you know. You can't--you can't solve a problem unless you diagnose it.

I strongly believe that one of the best things to encourage parental involvement also is to know that the classrooms will be safe and secure. That's why I support a teacher liability act at the federal level that says if a teacher or principal upholds reasonable standards of classroom discipline, they can't be sued. They can't be sued. I think parents will be more involved with education when they know their children's classrooms are safe and secure as well. I also believe that we need to say to people that if you cannot meet standards, there has to be a consequence. Instead of just the--kind of the soft bigotry of low expectations, that there has to be a consequence. We can't continue to shuffle children through school. And one of the consequences is to allow parents to have different choices.

Mr. LEHRER: Governor. Vice President Gore.

Vice. Pres. GORE: Yeah. We have a huge difference between us on this question. I'd like to start by telling you what my vision is. I see a day in the United States of America where all of our public schools are considered excellent, world class. Where there are no failing schools, where the classrooms are small enough in size--number of students--so that the teacher can spend enough one-on-one time with each--with each student. Now that means recruiting new teachers for the public schools. It means, in my plan, hiring bonuses to get 100,000 new teachers in the public schools within the next four years. It means also helping local school districts that sometimes find the parents of school-aged children outvoted on bond issues to give them some help with interest-free bonding authority so that we can build new schools and modernize the classrooms. We need to give teachers the training and professional development that they need to--including the paid time off to go visit the classroom of a master teacher and to pick up some new skills.

I--I want to give every middle-class family a $10,000 a year tax deduction for college tuition so that--so that middle-class families will always be able to send their kids on to college. I want to work for universal pre-school, because we know from all the studies that the--the--the youngsters learn--kids learn more in the first few years of life than anywhere else.

Now I said there was a contrast. Governor Bush is for vouchers. And in his plan he proposes to drain more money--more taxpayer money out of the public schools for private school vouchers than all of the money that he proposes in his entire budget for public schools themselves. And only 1-in-20 students would be eligible for these vouchers, and they wouldn't even pay the full tuition to private school. I think that's a mistake. I th--I don't think we should give up on the private schools and leave kids trapped in failing schools, I think we--I think we should make it the number one priority to make our schools the best in the world, all of them.

Mr. LEHRER: Governor, what is your position on that?

Gov. BUSH: Yeah. I appreciate that. I think any time we end with one of these attacks, it's--it's appropriate to respond. Here's what I think. First of all, vouchers are up to states. If you want to do a voucher program in Missouri, fine. You see, I strongly believe in local control of schools. I'm a governor of a state and I don't like it when the federal government tells us what to do. I believe in local control of schools.

But here's what I I've said. I've said to the extent we spend federal money on disadvantaged children, we want the schools to show us whether or not the children are learning. What's unreasonable about that? We expect there to be standards met and we expect there to be measurement. And if we find success, we'll praise it. But when we find children trapped in schools that will not change and will not teach, instead of saying, `Oh, this is OK in America, just to shuffle poor kids through schools,' there has to be a consequence. And the consequence is that federal portion of federal money will go to the parent so the parent can go to a tutoring program or another public school or another private sc--or a private school. You see, there has to be a consequence. We've got a society that says, `Hey, the status quo is fine. Just move them through.' And guess who suffers?

Mr. LEHRER: Well, what's the harm on...

Vice Pres. GORE: Yeah.

Mr. LEHRER: What's the other side on vouchers?

Vice Pres. GORE: Well, the--the program that he's proposing is not the one that he just described. Under your plan, Governor Bush, states would be required to pay vouchers to students to match the--the vouchers that the federal government would put up. Now here's--and the way it would happen is that under his plan, if a school was designated as failing, the kids would be trapped there for another three years and then some of them would get federal vouchers and the state would be forced to--to match those--that money.

Under my plan, if a school is failing, we work with the states to give them the authority and the resources to close down that school and reopen it right away with a new principal, a new faculty, a turnaround team of specialists who know what they're doing to--it's based on the plan of Governor Jim Hunt...

Mr. LEHRER: So...

Vice Pres. GORE: ...in North Carolina and it works great.

Mr. LEHRER: So no vouchers under a--in a Gore administration.

Vice Pres. GORE: If I thought that there was no alternative then I might feel differently, but I--I have an obligation...

Mr. LEHRER: Well, let...

Vice Pres. GORE: ...to fight to--to make sure there are no failing schools.

Mr. LEHRER: Let me...

Vice Pres. GORE: We've got a turnaround al--most schools are excellent. But we've got to make sure that all of them are.

Mr. LEHRER: Andrew Cosburg has a related question on education that's right on this subject. Mr. Cosburg, where are you? There you are. And it's for Vice President Gore.

Mr. ANDREW COSBURG: Mr. Vice President, in the school district in which I work and in countless others across the nation, we face crumbling school buildings, increased school violence, student apathy, overcrowding, lack of funding, lawsuits, the list goes on. I could mention low teacher pay but I won't. What can you tell me...

Vice Pres. GORE: You should.

Mr. COSBURG: ...and my fellow American teachers today about your plans for our immediate future?

Vice Pres. GORE: What grade do you teach?

Mr. LEHRER: A--up--up--that's a violation of your rule, Vice President Gore.

Vice Pres. GORE: High school. I mentioned before that--that...

Mr. LEHRER: Sir--Mr...

Vice Pres. GORE: ...the local communities are having a harder time passing bond issues. Traditionally, if you've been involved in a campaign like that you know that the parents with kids in school are the ones that turn out and vote. It's ironic that there are now--there's now a smaller percentage of the voters made up of parents with children than ever in American history because of the aging of our population.

But at the same time we've got the largest generation of students in public schools ever. More than 90 percent of America's children go to public schools. And lar--it's the largest number ever this year and they'll break the record next year and every year for 10 years running. We've got to do something about this.

And local--it's not enough to leave it up to the local school districts. They're not able to do it. And our future depends upon it. Look, we're in an information age. Our economic future depends upon whether or not our children are going to get the kind of education that lets them go on to college--and again, I want to make it possible for all middle-class families to send their kids to college and more Pell grants for those who are in the lower-income groups, also.

An--and then I want to make sure that we have job training on top of that and lifelong learning, but it all starts with the public school teachers. I--my proposal gives $10,000 hiring bonuses for those teachers who are--are--who get certified to teach in the areas where they're most needed.

Now accountability? We--we basically agree on accountability. My plan requires testing of all students. It also requires something that Governor Bush's plan doesn't. It requires testing of all new teachers, including in the subjects that they teach. We have to start treating teachers like the professionals that they are. And give them the respect an--and the kind of quality of life that will draw more people into teaching because we need a lot more teachers.

Mr. LEHRER: Governor Bush, two minutes.

Gov. BUSH: When you total up all the federal spending he wants to do, it's the largest increase in federal spending in years. And there's just not going to be enough money. I--I--I have been a governor of a big state. I've made education my number one priority. That's the fa--that's what governors ought to do. `They ought to say this is the most important thing we do as a state.'

The federal government puts about 6 percent of the money up. They put about--you know, 60 percent of the strings where you got to fill out paperwork. I don't know if you have to be a paperwork filler outer, but most of it's because of the federal government. What I want to do is send flexibility and authority to the local folks so you can choose what to do with the money. One size does not fit all. I'd worry about federalizing education if I were you. I s--I--I believe strongly that the federal government can help. They need to fund Head Start. We need to have accountability. The vice president's plan does not have annual accountability.

Third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade we ne--we need to demand on results. I believe strongly in a pat--in a Teacher Protection Act like I mentioned. I hear from teachers all the time about the lawsuits and the threats, respect in the classroom. Part of it's because you can't--you can't control the classroom. You can't have a consequence for somebody without fear of getting sued under federal law. So I'm going to ask the Congress to pass a Teacher Protection Act.

So I believe in flexibility, I believe in a national reading initiative for local districts to access with K-2 diagnostic testing. Curriculum that works. Phonics works, by the way. It needs to be part of our curriculum. There needs to be flexibility for teacher training and teacher hiring with federal money. The federal government can be a--be a part, but--but don't fall prey to all this talk about money here and money there because e--education is really funded at the local level. Ninety-four percent comes from the local level.

Mr. LEHRER: All right. Vice President Gore, is the governor right when he says that you're proposing the largest federal spending in years?

Vice Pres. GORE: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I'm so glad that I have a chance to knock that down. Look, the problem is that under Governor Bush's plan, $1.6 trillion tax cut, mostly to the wealthy. Under his own budget numbers, he proposes spending more money for a tax cut just for the wealthiest 1 percent than all of the new money that he budgets for education, health care and national defense combined.

Now under my plan, we will balance the budget every year. I'm not just saying this. I'm not just talking. I have helped to balance the budget for the first time in 30 years, pay down the debt. And under my plan, in four years as a percentage of our gross domestic product, federal spending will be the smallest that it has been in 50 years. One reason is--you know the third biggest spending item in our budget is interest on the national debt? We get nothing for it. We keep the good faith and credit of the United States. I will pay down the debt every single year until it is eliminated early in the next decade. That gets rid of the--the--the third biggest intrusion of the federal government...

Mr. LEHRER: Sir...

Vice Pres. GORE: ...in--in our economy. Now because the governor ha--has all this money for a tax cut, mostly to the wealthy, there is no money left over so--so schools get testing...

Mr. LEHRER: All right.

Vice Pres. GORE: ...an--and lawsuit reform an--and not much else.

Mr. LEHRER: Governor, the vice president says you're wrong.

Gov. BUSH: Well, he's wrong. Just add up all the numbers. It's three times bigger than what President Clinton proposed. The Senate Budget Committee....

Mr. LEHRER: Three times--excuse me, three times...

Gov. BUSH: ...bigger than what President Clinton proposed.

Vice Pres. GORE: That's in an ad, Jim...

Gov. BUSH: Hey, wait a minute.

Vice Pres. GORE: ...that was knocked down by the journalist who analyzed the ad, said it was misleading.

Gov. BUSH: May--may I answer?

Mr. LEHRER: OK. Go ahead.

Gov. BUSH: My turn?

Mr. LEHRER: Yes, sir.

Gov. BUSH: Forget the journalists. He proposed more than Walter Mondale and Michael Dukakis combined. You know, this is a big spender, he is, and he ought to be proud of it. It's part of his record. We just have a different philosophy.

Let me talk about tax relief. If you pay taxes, you ought to get tax relief. The vice president believes that only the right people ought to get tax relief. I don't think that's the role of the president to pick, `You're right,' and `You're not right.' I think if you're going to have tax relief, everybody ought to get it. And, therefore, wealthy people are going to get it. But the top 1 percent will end up paying one-third of the taxes in America and they get one-fifth of the benefits. And that's because we structured the plan so that six million additional American families pay no taxes. If you're a family of four making $50,000 in Missouri, you get a 50 percent cut in your federal income taxes. What I've done is set priorities and funded them.

Vice Pres. GORE: Well...

Gov. BUSH: And there's extra money. And I believe the people who pay the bills ought to--ought to get some money back. It's a difference of opinion. He wants to grow the government and I trust you with your own money.

Vice Pres. GORE: I...

Mr. LEHRER: Well, let...

Gov. BUSH: I wish we could spend an hour talking about trusting people because it's the right position to take.

Vice Pres. GORE: Can we extend the time?

Mr. LEHRER: Yeah. Hold on one sec here, though. The--but, Governor, just to reverse the thing: What do you say specifically to what the vice president said tonight? He said it many, many times, that your tax cut benefits the top 1 percent of the wealthiest Americans and--you've heard what he said.

Gov. BUSH: Of course it does. If you pay taxes, you're going to get a benefit. People who pay taxes will get tax relief.

Mr. LEHRER: All right then what--why shouldn't they?

Vice Pres. GORE: All right...

Gov. BUSH: Well, let me--let me finish, please.

Mr. LEHRER: Well--well...

Gov. BUSH: Under my plan, if you make--the top--the wealthy people pay 62 percent of the taxes today, afterwards they pay 64 percent. This is a fair plan. Do you know why? Because the tax code is unfair for people at the bottom end of the economic ladder. If you're a single mother making $22,000 a year today, and you're trying to raise two children, for every additional dollar you earn, you pay a higher marginal rate on that dollar than someone making $200,000 and it's not right. I want to do something about that.

Mr. LEHRER: Vice President Gore.

Vice Pres. GORE: Yeah. Please.

Mr. LEHRER: All right, Vice President Gore?

Vice Pres. GORE: Look, this isn't about Governor Bush. It's not about me. It is about you. And I want to come back to something I said before. If you want somebody who believes that we were better off eight years ago than we are now, and that we ought to go back to the kind of policies that we had back then, emphasizing tax cuts mainly for the wealthy, here is your man. If you want somebody who will fight for you, and who will fight to have middle-class tax cuts, then I am your man. I want to be. Now i--I doubt anybody here makes more than $330,000 a year. I won't ask you. But if you do, you're in the top 1 percent.

Mr. LEHRER: It would be a violation of the rules. They could...

Vice Pres. GORE: I--I'm not going to ask them. I'm not going to ask. I'm not going to ask. But if everyone here in this audience was--was dead on in the middle of the middle class, then the tax cuts for every single one of you all added up would be less than the tax cut his plan would give to just one member of that top wealthiest 1 percent. Now you judge for yourselves whether or not that's fair.

Mr. LEHRER: Quick and then we're moving on.

Gov. BUSH: Good. Fifty million Americans get no tax relief under his plan.

Vice Pres. GORE: That's not right.

Gov. BUSH: And you may not be one of them. You're just not one of the right people. And secondly, we've had enough fighting. It's time to unite. You talk about eight years? In eight years they haven't gotten anything done on Medicare, on Social Security, a Patients Bill of Rights.

Mr. LEHRER: All right...

Gov. BUSH: It's time to get something done.

Mr. LEHRER: Hey, we're going to move on now.

Vice Pres. GORE: I--I've got to answer that, Jim. Medicare...

Mr. LEHRER: Wh--what...

Vice Pres. GORE: I--I cast the tie-breaking vote to add 26 years to the life of Medicare.

Mr. LEHRER: Sir...

Vice Pres. GORE: It was due to go bankrupt in 1999. And that $50 million figure, again, the newspaper....

Mr. LEHRER: Vice President Gore.

Vice Pres. GORE: ...I said--you said, `forget the journalists,' but they are the--the keepers of the score card and whether or not...

Mr. LEHRER: Ke...

Vice Pres. GORE: ...you're using facts that aren't right. And that--that fact is just not right.

Mr. LEHRER: Speaking of keepers of the score card, that's what I'm trying to do here, Mr. Vice President...

Vice Pres. GORE: Yeah.

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