Transcript of the April 27, 1999 NPR® Town Meeting.
Analysis: Columbine High School shootings and how the Internet, video
games and violence on TV and in the movies may contribute to teen-age
violence
LINDA WERTHEIMER, host:
We're not sure why two boys attacked their fellow students in Colorado
last week, but it has prompted a national conversation about many things:
schools, families, video games, the Internet and guns. Last night, we
talked with people from another high school about the same size as
Columbine. Annandale High is located in Annandale, Virginia, a suburb of
Washington. It's different from Columbine in that it is far more diverse
with large groups of Asian, Hispanic and black students. In addition to
students, we invited teachers, parents and Patricia Dalton, a
psychologist who works with adolescents; also, Clive Thompson, who writes
about the Internet and digital culture for Shift magazine. The Internet
has been attacked for playing a role in the Littleton shootings. The
Annandale students we talked to said they use the Net mainly for benign
purposes.
JEREMY (Student): Like when I first got into it, you know, I went on like
all these different, like, chat sites and stuff. But after I got used to
it, you know, I just got into a regular pattern, and so now it's mainly
e-mail and stock, and that's, you know, basically it. That's all I
really do.
WERTHEIMER: Who else?
NEAL EDWARDS (Student): Well, I'm not the...
WERTHEIMER: Neal(ph).
EDWARDS: ...business mogul that Jeremy is. I don't use the Internet for
stocks, but I really use it just for doing research, like going to the
library on your computer now. You don't have to get up. You can start
your paper at midnight because all your research--everything's on the
Internet now, and it's great. It's a great resource.
WERTHEIMER: Clive Thompson, you write about these kinds of issues for
your magazine. What do you think?
Mr. CLIVE THOMPSON (Shift Magazine): With the Internet and with video
games, they're a type of accelerated media. Media affects people. That's
what it is. I mean, that's why people have been worried about it, you
know, from Plato onwards. He was extremely concerned about the effects
of music that didn't have words on people. I mean, this was a very
growing concern a couple thousand years ago. And I think it's a matter
of ignorance in a lot of cases for a lot of the people that have been
alarmed about its effects.
We've been hearing around the room here about everyone uses it for these
incredibly idyllic things: you know, talking to friends; you know,
keeping in contact with people. And yet, all we get out of the media and
critics is this sense of incredibly uninformed terror. As with video
games, I was sort of fascinated to see that every time they mentioned
video games, they would reference Doom, which is a game that, I mean,
anyone that knows video games knows it. People haven't played Doom for
about four years. I mean, like this is one of the most incredibly
outdated first-person shooters around.
People talk about video games as this anti-social thing, but 50 percent
of why you play video games is what happens after you've turned the
screen off: when you're talking to other people about it, when you're
figuring out the strategy. I mean, these games are amazingly complex.
You can't play them unless you figure this out communally with like a
couple hundred other people often on, ta-dum, the Internet, you know.
It's actually a tool for the social engagement around these types of
things.
WERTHEIMER: Is he right?
Dr. PATRICIA DALTON (Psychologist): Well, I'd like to offer another
view. In my office...
WERTHEIMER: Patricia Dalton.
Dr. DALTON: ...I will see parents who are very concerned because their
parents are on the computer virtually all the time. I hear this
complaint about boys much more than I do about girls. And I don't think
that it's a matter of this is wrong for kids to do. It's how much
they're doing it, and is it substituting for other things, sort of warmer
activities with real people? What I'm concerned about are the kids who
are really holed up on their computer and not doing things with other
kids.
WERTHEIMER: Do you all have the sense that your parents know as much
about the Internet as you do?
Unidentified Student #1: I feel that my parents have a sense of what they
think the Internet is about, because I know that my parents--like they
thought it was all about, you know, chat lines, you know, trying to pick
up people, trying to meet people there, you know; the Internet with
pornography and like, you know, all this weird pop culture that they
didn't know about. They think it's about that when, like, that is on the
Internet, but there's so much more that the Internet has to offer.
WERTHEIMER: Does anybody think the Internet is dangerous or have any
concerns about it?
Ms. FELICIA LOWDEN (English Teacher): I think there could be some really
positive aspects...
WERTHEIMER: Felicia Lowden.
Ms. LOWDEN: ...just like everyone is saying, but I have to agree with
Dr. Dalton that there are some dangers as far as the relationships or
learning the social skills. There's not that communication that's going
on between two human beings. You can do everything in your living room,
and what's that going to produce? Someone who can no longer communicate
with people--I mean, if you're looking at the extreme somewhere down the
road.
WERTHEIMER: Clive Thompson, you used a phrase--What is it?--about the
games which involve shooting. What do you call them?
Mr. THOMPSON: Oh, first-person shooters.
WERTHEIMER: First-person shooters.
Mr. THOMPSON: Yep. You know, in a first-person shooter, you're in the
eyes of the person, you're running around shooting things--bad guys,
whatever. And virtually, all these games, you're not intended to be a
terrorist or anything like that or a bad person. You're a cop or an FBI
agent or a Marine. This is what the vision of Marines, of authority
figures, of socially sanctioned authority figures is: unbridled violence
and social sanction for violence. This is what a cop does, goes out and
shoots people. Why is it that we are--you know, that this is what is
coming out in video games?
WERTHEIMER: Anybody who plays video games have any thoughts? Do you--are
you all familiar with the term `first-person shooter,' Kevin?
KEVIN (Student): Yeah, I'm familiar with it. I think he's exactly right.
We're kind of portrayed as superheroes for killing people, and that's how
the video games go, and that kind of carries out into the real world.
That's probably how those--I don't want to say--the Littleton--those guys
that shot all those kids. I mean, even though by no means were they
heroes, they end up on the covers of national magazines and newspapers,
even if they're going to take their life to do it. I mean, I'll tell you
the truth, if I was suicidal and I had nothing left, I wouldn't mind
taking my life in return for becoming a national star. And I think that
that--the foundation of that grows from these video games the way
we--movies--the way we portray our idols, the way--you know, power.
MEREDITH STERNS (Student): I think that a human being is glorified every
day of your life. Like I don't really like--well, I've never really
played a video game other than Parappa the Rapper and...
WERTHEIMER: Meredith Sterns(ph) talking.
STERNS: And I don't really like war movies and I don't like shooting
movies, and I don't think that we glorify those people. And the thing
about like the cops and stuff like that, like that's not their only job,
to go shoot people. They're there to help us. They're there to protect
us, and I don't think that there should be video games that people go
around shooting.
WERTHEIMER: So, Meredith, do you think this is a guy thing?
STERNS: Oh, I definitely think that it's a guy thing.
Unidentified Student #2: We have this sort of way of taking things that
are technological amusements and being alarmed by them--maybe they just
haven't been around long enough--and looking at all these other things as
being perfectly normal even when, like football, which, as far as I can
tell, was just a bunch of guys smashing into each other, and valorizing
the idea that whoever is the biggest and the strongest will win. I
regard that, to this day, as a certainly ambiguous, you know, lesson. And
why are they...
Mr. THOMPSON: There's certainly a connection between what's going on in
our country and ...(unintelligible).
Student #2: Sure, sure, sure, sure. Why are we not making a connection,
say, between football and something else?
EDWARDS: The people...
WERTHEIMER: Neal.
EDWARDS: ...of Littleton, Colorado, didn't strap on shoulder pads and a
helmet and run into the library and kill people. They did it with a gun,
and football might glorify the biggest and fastest player, but what video
games do is they glorify the guy with the biggest and best gun. And
that's what the people in Littleton, Colorado, did. They used a gun.
They didn't use their bodies.
WERTHEIMER: Neal Edwards--he edits The A-Blast, the high school paper at
Annandale. We'll hear more about kids and guns from the students at
Annandale High School just ahead on the program.
You're listening to NPR's ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
(Announcements)
NOAH ADAMS (Host): This is NPR's ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. I'm Noah Adams.
WERTHEIMER: And I'm Linda Wertheimer. We're continuing our conversation
now with students, parents and teachers from Annandale High School in
northern Virginia. Also taking part in the conversation is Clive
Thompson who writes about the digital culture for Shift magazine, and Pat
Dalton, a psychologist who works here in Washington with families and
adolescents. The kids raised the subject of guns and violence during our
earlier talk about the Internet. We went on to talk about violent images
students see every day in the media. Felicia Lowden is an English
teacher and the person who trains student mediators at Annandale.
Ms. LOWDEN: It's everywhere. I mean, you even look at Jerry Springer
who--I know so many of my students love Jerry Springer, and what does he
encourage? You have a problem with somebody, you throw your fists
around, you slam a chair over their head or you curse them out. I mean,
there's no more--communication's lost. It's everywhere, in the movies
and in television. I...
Mr. THOMPSON: You just did two different things. You went right from
Jerry Springer to movies, and I regard those things as different, because
one's real and one isn't. People--particularly young people--people go
around saying, `Young people confuse fantasy and reality.' I don't know.
They don't. They're smarter than that. There are a very small minority
that can't. And they do things--possibly they might be among people that
did that in Colorado. You know, there is any number of artistic,
aesthetic or philosophical arguments that basically say that there's
nothing wrong with having dark urges and there's nothing wrong with
acting them out artistically or in some way like that. There are a lot
of ways we learn violence, because I find it interesting that some
things, it's culturally sanctioned to pick on and freak out about, and
other things, there aren't.
Mr. RON EDWARDS: To blame the popular television shows or other media or
movies or the Internet is kind of overly simplistic. I mean, you take
Ted Kaczynski. He's one of the most violent people ever. He didn't have
exposure to any of those things. He purposely did not have exposure to
that. And yet, he was able to be very violent and learn to make bombs
and all types of things that we certainly don't want to have people
emulate.
WERTHEIMER: That was Ron Edwards. Patricia Dalton.
Dr. DALTON: The thing that I would look at, though, in contrast is these
things have happened. How many school events have there been like this?
Eight in the past year and a half. Twenty and 30 years--these things
didn't occur, or if they did, they were rare. People didn't sit there
and say, `Not again. Is this really happening again?' And I think we
have to look at what are the conditions in this culture that seem to make
these things possible? What's affecting child development that we have
more kids today doing these things than we've ever had before?
Mr. THOMPSON: Well, one thing I'd raise there is that the...
WERTHEIMER: Clive Thompson.
Mr. THOMPSON: ...the one thing that has definitely changed is access to
guns. I mean, I have to take...
Dr. DALTON: I agree with that.
Mr. THOMPSON: ...I'd have to take issue with your idea that high school
was somehow less contested, less violent and more idyllic in your days of
yore. I mean...
Dr. DALTON: People weren't being shot in high schools...
Mr. THOMPSON: The guns weren't around. There was a lot of violence. It
wasn't gun violence. Believe me, if you're a geek like me, you could be
in school 15 years ago, it was horrific, right? It was horrific.
Dr. DALTON: But you lived through it.
Mr. THOMPSON: I lived through it. That's because there weren't any
guns, and that's why I'm kind of astonished why there isn't more
discussion about something that I think is kind of staring us in the face
here, which is gun control. I mean, I had a lot of extraordinarily dark
urges in high school. I never did anything particularly violent, other
than pulling a compass point on someone at some point in time to defend
myself. I was being picked on by a jock, actually. And you look at
other countries around the world that don't have such a preponderance of
guns. You know, this isn't happening.
WERTHEIMER: Well, let's ask some of the students. Michael.
MICHAEL (Student): Well, definitely, because my sister, who at the age of
10, fired a gun in my back yard, and, you know, at the age of 10, you
know, where the hell did she get the gun from, you know? And at 10, she
wasn't violent. She didn't play video games. You know, she was your
everyday girl who was just curious. And she's not into TV. She's not
into movies. She reads. She writes. She's into poetry, you know. And
so that also is a big thing. And guns are very powerful. They're not
toys. They're something that needs to be dealt with in the United
States.
WERTHEIMER: Anybody ever see anybody bring a gun to school or know of
kids who have them? Kevin.
KEVIN: One of my best friends has a gun. And he doesn't have it for any
purpose to get somebody or self-defense. He has it because, quite
frankly, you know, as we talk more and more about the realities of the
world, he never knows when he might need it. And he simply has it just
for that reason. He's not a fanatic, but he has it just for the sake of
he may need it and he wants to be prepared.
WERTHEIMER: Do you think that's widespread?
KEVIN: I think as we get older and we're able to obtain guns more easily,
I think it will be more widespread. As of right now in our lives, I
don't think it's that very widespread in this area of the country. But,
you know, definitely in different areas where they live different
lifestyles, definitely.
WERTHEIMER: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
KEVIN: You know, they could have guns for hunting. I know, you know, out
in the country, you know, young boys are raised to be hunters, and they
have easy access to guns, and it's the same type of thing here. Though I
don't think a lot of people are raised to be hunters here, guns are
somewhat as easily to be attained.
WERTHEIMER: Katherine.
KATHERINE (Student): But like I don't think guns are the answer. Because
like I know after this incident that happened in Colorado, someone in my
class is like--and I think they were serious--they were like, `Well, I
think I should get a gun and start carrying it around school just to
protect myself.' And then someone else was like, `Well, you know, you'd
better be careful of when to use it.' And so, I mean, who knows how many
people in our school have guns or anywhere like--and if they get mad at
something, they'll just take it out and use it, you know.
EDWARDS: But look at that mentality. People are shooting other people so
I need to get a gun.
WERTHEIMER: Neal. Mm-hmm.
EDWARDS: It's like why do we--why is it so easy to get a gun? It doesn't
make any sense. It's like it's the wild, wild West, and we're Jesse
James and Billy the Kid. It's ridiculous. I mean, we should have the
mentality that if there's a shooting, we should get the guns away from
the kids, not that we should have to defend ourselves with another gun.
WERTHEIMER: Who has--somebody else? Mysrian.
MYSRIAN ABDEL HUCK(ph) (Student): I just have to say that it's--I mean, I
know a lot of people have guns, and I was offered to have a gun, but I
was like, `What am I going to do with a gun?' you know what I'm saying? I
don't have a right to take someone else's life away, you know.
WERTHEIMER: But somebody actually offered to sell you or give you a gun?
HUCK: Yeah. Someone--not that long ago. Someone's like, `You want to
buy a gun from me?' I'm like, `No, what am I going to do with a gun?' you
know.
WERTHEIMER: And what did they say?
HUCK: They were like, `Well, I have one, you know, if you want to just,
you know'--I mean, what am I supposed to say? I mean, I'm not going to
take it. What am I going to do with a gun? I'm not going to take
someone else's life away, because I wouldn't want someone else taking my
life away for something stupid, you know.
WERTHEIMER: Yeah, but you're sending chills down the back of everybody in
this room to think that--a lot of the parents in this room--to think that
somebody might have said, `Mysrian, you want a gun?'
HUCK: I mean, it's really easy to get a gun. It's really easy to get a
gun. I mean, I can get a gun today, so I think a lot of people just need
to make the right decisions when guns are offered to them.
WERTHEIMER: Mysrian Abdel Huck, she's 16. She's a junior, and like all
the students we talked to, she attends Annandale High School in northern
Virginia. In addition to parents, students and teachers, we talked to
Clive Thompson of Shift magazine and psychologist Patricia Dalton.
ADAMS: This is NPR, National Public Radio.
(Announcements)
ADAMS: This is NPR's ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. I'm Noah Adams.
WERTHEIMER: And I'm Linda Wertheimer.
We've been thinking and talking for more than a week now about the
terrible events at Columbine High School in Jefferson County, Colorado.
And part of that national conversation has been the upsetting fact that
it happened in a good school, in a community that places a high value on
families and children. Last night, we asked a group of students, parents
and teachers from another such place to join us, to talk about high
school and family life. They're from Annandale, Virginia.
Vice principal Olan Faulk of Annandale High is part of the group, as is
Patricia Dalton, a psychologist who works with adolescents and families
here in Washington. And Clive Thompson of Shift magazine, who writes
about the digital culture.
Annandale has had its problems, changing in a short period of time to a
school with a very diverse population. A few years ago, Annandale
established a mediation program, training students to settle disputes,
but also to spot trouble, to intervene and to go for help, a kind of
early warning system. Michael Uriarte(ph) is a 16-year-old junior,
captain of the dance team. He's gay. He feels being a mediator helped
him to find his place in the school.
MICHAEL URIARTE (Student): Well, I came into mediation having to drop a
dance class, and not knowing what to take and just, like, `OK, I'll sign
up for mediation.' But, like, I've been given a gift, you know, the gift
of helping other people. And it's so like touching to me to be able to,
like, help other people, you know. And with mediation, we have to learn
how to respect each other and learn how to understand and learn how to
disagree with each other, and so on. So it's not just about, you know,
learning to help other people, but, you know, understanding who we are,
understanding where other people are coming from, understanding a bunch
of different things, instead of just--it comes with, like, an entire
package.
WERTHEIMER: Felicia Lowden, you're the teacher who runs this program and
tries to train kids to do this kind of work.
Ms. FELICIA LOWDEN (Teacher): What's happening at Annandale are the kids
are all around the school, using their skills before fights occur. If
they see something going on in the cafeteria, they try to help. I've had
kids after lunch who run down to me, and say, `Oh, I broke up a fight,'
and they're proud of it. And it's in to be helpful. It's in to break up
the fights or just try to help people, or to sit with somebody who's
different.
Mr. OLAN FAULK (Vice Principal): We've painted a pretty rosy picture of
Annandale High School, and I need to say to you that we do have some
folks that really don't feel comfortable in that particular setting. In
my position as assistant principal, I deal with those kids every day. I
deal with the kids that have taken the razor blade and cut their arm,
kids that take the cigarettes and burn holes in their arms, in both arms.
So there are some kids there that don't feel a part of the group, and I
have to be completely honest with everyone when I say that. And we have
learned through the years that creating a dialogue with the parents, with
the kids, and oftentimes we find that that's where the disconnect really
begins. Parents don't talk to those kids. So they have to have someone
to talk to. Yeah, we're not all--yeah--cordial to one another at
Annandale. There are times when there are conflicts, but we've learned
to deal with that; we've learned to handle it. And the mediation process
is a very, very important part of that.
WERTHEIMER: I wanted to ask you all if you think it's possible to see a
child in trouble if that child isn't doing anything that looks
particularly nasty? If they're not acting out and their grades are
reasonable and maybe they go to the prom and act like they're, you know,
part of some--they seem to be, more or less, OK, but there is something
wrong. Do you feel confident that you're gonna see that kid, or do you
just see the ones that really jump?
Mr. FAULK: I don't think we're as good at it as we think we are. There
are many, many kids out there that need a lot of help, that we're not
reaching. How can they go unnoticed? It's easy for a kid who's got a
short haircut to walk down a hallway and never be noticed, you're right.
We've got a whole group of middle students that--students on one end, the
exceptional students are receiving services, the lower students are
receiving services, and there's that whole block in the middle that we
try to reach, that, oftentimes, there will be fringe kids in there that
we know we don't reach. But we have to continue to try.
WERTHEIMER: Is he right? Do you all have a sense that there are kids out
there that need help that don't get it?
STERNS: I'm sure there is. Last year, a good friend of mine attempted
suicide. And I don't think--I certainly didn't see it coming, and I
don't think anybody else did. There are people like that, I'm sure, that
are like that, that we'll never reach, that we don't see it coming, and
we can't possibly unless they show us somehow. And I don't think she
ever showed us that she's in need of help.
WERTHEIMER: Meredith Sterns. Patricia Dalton.
Dr. DALTON: I think one of the problems with people most in need of help
is they're not likely to ask for it. And I think in a high school
setting, it's all the more important that the fellow students and
teachers and everybody has their eyes open to who might be in trouble,
and see is there any way of getting this person help. When those boys in
Columbine told their one friend to get out, that something was gonna
happen, it's too bad that he didn't know, go straight for the office,
because that was an imminent threat. You can't expect a 17-year-old kid
to know that, but I think it's something we need to say to every high
school kid across the country. If you hear something like that, do
something about that.
WERTHEIMER: I'm interested to know about whether you all think that your
families know everything there is to know about you? Do you have secrets
from your parents, from your family, from those people who care about
you?
STERNS: My mom is--she knows everything about me. I share everything
with her. I consider her to be my best friend. And she's never really
judged me. Like, she judges me, of course, because she's my mother, but,
like, if I've done something wrong, she says, `It's OK, but you need to
learn from it.' And so I feel very comfortable telling her things that
maybe not everybody would feel comfortable telling their parents about.
WERTHEIMER: Does anybody else feel that way? Neal?
EDWARDS: I don't think I tell my parents everything. And I think they've
made a good conscious decision to not want to know everything, because
they want me to be independent and they want me to make my own choices.
And if I have to tell them everything, what's gonna happen next year when
I'm at college or four years later when I'm out of college and I can't
tell them everything just because of the communication gap?
KEVIN (Student): Yeah, I feel the same way. I tell that right in front
of my mom's face...
WERTHEIMER: Kevin.
KEVIN: ...is that there's plenty of secrets that I have from her and my
dad, but they're not secrets. I would tell her as a friend, but I think
as a parent, you know, they're kind of out of boundaries as a parent. You
know, they're not life-threatening, they're just secrets that I have
that, you know, just really don't need to be talked about on a parental
to child level.
WERTHEIMER: So what do you think? Patty, let me just hear your...
PATTY (Kevin's Mother): Well, I agree with him completely. I mean,
there's certain things that I know I didn't tell my parents. And I can
put myself in his shoes, and there is certain things I'm sure that he
does or knows that he doesn't need to share with me. And he needs to
solve those problems or do whatever, and if he came across something that
he needed to share with me, he would feel comfortable. But he's 18, he's
a young adult.
WERTHEIMER: Does what happened last week in Colorado change your thinking
about that at all? Does it sort of make you feel, `Well, on the other
hand, maybe I ought to just sort of check a few of these kinds of
things'? Ron Edwards.
Mr. EDWARDS: I don't know.
Unidentified Man: I think that teen-agers are living in a dangerous
world, and I think one of the least dangers that they have is one of
their classmates coming in and shooting them, to be honest with you. I
think they face problems of choices with alcohol and driving and AIDS and
drug use and things like that that they have to confront every day and
choices that are relevant to that. This incident is not something that
we can just all of a sudden, `I'm gonna be interested in what my child
does,' you better be interested in it for all these other reasons, not
just recent acts of violence.
WERTHEIMER: Is there anybody here who feels that they would like to spend
more time talking to their parents than they do, or feels that it would
be a good thing? Michael.
URIARTE: Well, me and my parents--I guess you can say we don't get along
very well, that our personalities don't mesh well. They're pretty
conservative, and I'm very liberal. And I guess it would be good if we
did communicate, and I feel that maybe some of the problems that we have
now could've been, like, stopped earlier if we had communicated when I
was younger. But at the same time, they kinda are trying now to start up
communication with me, and it kind of feels like it's too late. And
they're being pushy and kind of nosey at times, and--I don't know. I
just feel like I don't have to share things with my parents.
WERTHEIMER: Does anybody here think that it's possible that either a
parent thinks that it's possible that they have--that this child is like
not who they think that child is, to see some glimpse of some other kid
in there every once in a while? Or are there any kids here who think
that their parents just absolutely do not ever see the real person?
Michael.
URIARTE: I, right here, first hand--my parents don't know--I can honestly
say--anything about me. I think they know about 10 percent of me.
WERTHEIMER: Do you think it's because you're gay and they can't deal with
that, or what?
URIARTE: Well, they know about that, they deny that, but there's things
that I don't want them to know, just because I don't feel that they have
to know. I've gotten this far without, you know, having to trust them,
and I think I'm a very healthy, very strong individual. You know, I feel
I'm very secure with who am I. And I don't feel that--you know, I'm
gonna be out of the house in, like, two years and on my own. So I don't
feel that it is necessary for me to have to even, you know, start talking
to them about these things. I mean, it's good to talk to them--you know,
like, I don't just walk in and just completely not talk to them. But
it's just other things that they don't need to know about.
WERTHEIMER: Katherine.
KATHERINE (Student): I don't have, like, that comfort with my parents,
either. Like, I can't go to them and talk to them and...
WERTHEIMER: Why not?
KATHERINE: I just can't. Like, even if they ask me, I just don't feel
comfortable with them like that, and so I don't tell them anything, so
they don't really know much. And if they do, it's because they find out
through other people. I mean, I kind of wish sometimes I do, like, had a
more, like, open relationship with them, but...
WERTHEIMER: Do you have other people?
KATHERINE: Friends.
WERTHEIMER: Does that work?
KATHERINE: Sometimes.
WERTHEIMER: Patricia Dalton, is this a--it's a common thing. Is it a bad
thing?
Dr. DALTON: Well, yeah, it's kind of disheartening to hear how many kids
don't feel that they can talk easily with their parents. I know from
seeing families in my office, sometimes parents don't know how to do it.
And if one side or both sides tries more--maybe a parent tells a
teen-ager about what it was like when they were that age, that's one that
I've used a lot that does help them kind of see some of their
commonalties. Or maybe the teen-ager just reaches out and tells the
parent something that they're happy to hear and they want to hear. If
your parents react in a way that you don't like, you need to tell them
and tell them why. And then maybe something can happen to improve the
situation, because I don't think it's a good thing.
WERTHEIMER: Patricia Dalton is a psychologist working with families and
adolescents. We'll continue the conversation about the secret lives of
children just ahead on the program.
ADAMS: You're listening to NPR's ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
(Announcements)
WERTHEIMER: This is NPR's ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. I'm Linda Wertheimer.
ADAMS: And I'm Noah Adams.
We're going to hear more now from students at Annandale High School in
Virginia.
It's near Washington, DC, about the same size as Columbine High School in
Colorado. And like the students there, kids in Annandale confront things
they don't always share with adults. This part of the conversation also
includes psychologist Patricia Dalton and Clive Thompson; he writes about
the digital culture for Shift magazine.
WERTHEIMER: I assume, from what we know about you that, you know, you are
all involved to some degree or another with groups in your school, and
you seem to be making your way through high school. And I know that none
of you has ever come close to--from what I know of you, none of you have
ever come close to doing anything like what the kids in Colorado did. But
has there ever been a time in your life when you had some kind of very
dark impulse, some awful thought that you didn't necessarily act on, but
you sort of turned it over in your head and looked at it for a while? Has
that ever happened? Michael.
URIARTE: Well, my freshman year of high school was probably like the
worst year of my life. And I guess it was trying to fit in and trying
too hard. And, like, being biracial, you know, I didn't really have a
group I could go to. And, you know, being gay, I felt that I had to, you
know, keep that away from everyone 'cause that's something you don't talk
about. And I can't deny that, you know, my freshman year I--there were
days when I just wanted to come to school and shoot everyone--you know,
like, I really did. But I think the difference between me and the other
kids who have acted on that is I think they're disturbed in, like, many
ways. And something, obviously, isn't right, you know, with them. And I
think that separates me from them.
STERNS: My eighth-grade year, I had a...
WERTHEIMER: Meredith Sterns.
STERNS: ...back surgery and I had to wear a brace afterwards for six,
seven months, and it was a very difficult transition for me because it
was also time that I started, like, changing who I was; like, I was a
very different person in middle school. I was very, very, very
superficial and very different how I was in school than who I was in real
life. And I started changing my friends, and I didn't hang out with the
people I had hung out with, and they started kind of not accepting me
anymore, which was like a really new thing to me not to be accepted with
friends. And I felt very depressed and alone and not worthy of people.
And I really wanted people who didn't accept me to be hurt. And maybe
not physically hurt by me, but to somehow something bad happen, because
something bad happened to me.
WERTHEIMER: But you didn't do anything?
STERNS: No. No.
WERTHEIMER: Why not?
STERNS: Because I've been--just been taught to not--it's wrong to
physically hurt somebody, or emotionally hurt somebody intentionally.
WERTHEIMER: Anybody else? Kevin, you're the big bad football player who
bashes people.
KEVIN: Actually--well, yeah, there's been some emotional times in my life
where I've really felt down, and I prefer not to say the situation, but
I'll say this, I used to be very, very depressed. And, you know,
suicidal thoughts ran through my head. But the one thing that kept me
from ever seriously considering anything was my grandfather. He's the
sweetest guy in the world, and I really felt that he really cared for me.
And I would hate to have seen him, you know, sad over my death. So I
would never even consider it twice.
Dr. DALTON: I think the two things that are so dangerous in young people
are the combination...
WERTHEIMER: Patricia Dalton.
Dr. DALTON: ...of a lack of attachment to someone or some friends,
family members, whoever it might be. And the other thing is the lack of
a conscience, which is really laid down developmentally at a much earlier
age than high school. It's more in the range of middle grade school. And
if it doesn't happen then, it's very worrisome. No ethics class is going
to make that happen when a person's in high school.
WERTHEIMER: Do you guys feel that there is somebody watching you? If you
started to go off the rails, somebody would know?
URIARTE: I think definitely teachers would be the first to know if
anything--'cause, you know, it would probably show in your grades and
your behavior. And, you know, you're with that teacher almost every day
of the week, you know? And so I kind of do feel like I'm being watched,
but not as I'm, like--not, like, my privacy is being invaded, but as in,
like, I'm kind of being guided, because we kind of are, you know, on our
own a little bit--not completely, but we also still aren't, I think,
mature enough to completely be on our own, and we do need that guidance
there from teachers and adults and other people.
WERTHEIMER: Jeremy, we haven't heard from you in a while.
JEREMY NUTTLES (Student): Yeah. I think, like, the person who really has
my back or whatever most is God, because I know that if I wanted to, I
could keep anything from anyone. But I know that if there was a problem
that could get so serious as in the thing with Colorado that I know he
would put it on my heart to get me to tell someone. So that's who I
think has my back most.
WERTHEIMER: When you think about this whole business in Littleton and you
think about the possibility that something like that could occur on your
watch, could occur with friends of yours or whatever, is there
something--anybody want to add anything about what makes sense to do to
keep things OK?
Mr. THOMPSON: Well, I think one thing...
WERTHEIMER: Clive Thompson.
Mr. THOMPSON: ...that would be healthy to see is some questioning of the
culture we're seeing right now, where there is this identification of
these creepy geeks as being inherently dangerous, because I know that
I've been--journalist friends of mine and the technology media have been
receiving hundreds of e-mails from all across the country, from kids that
are, for whatever reasons, slightly out of the ordinary. Maybe they're
into Goth stuff; maybe they play first-person shooters a lot; maybe
they're just science geeks, and they are getting persecuted like there's
no tomorrow. Some of these stories are pretty hair-raising. And it
seems like rather than the response being, `Hmm, maybe it's not a good
idea to demonize these people so much and push them to the fringe,' the
response has been actually to do that even more. And that's--so if you
were to talk about ways to avoid what's going on, I think there's one
we're looking at right now.
NUTTLES: I guess I have something to say.
WERTHEIMER: Jeremy.
NUTTLES: If you don't treat people like crap, then guys won't have all
these pent-up hostilities that they can't let out emotionally that builds
up and builds up. If you don't treat people like crap, they won't need
to use drugs to escape from reality, because reality will be just fine.
If you don't treat people like crap, they won't shoot you. And until you
stop it, then more people are just gonna die, you know? That's basically
what I have to say.
WERTHEIMER: Thanks very much, everybody.
That last person was Jeremy Nettles. He's 18 years old. He and the
other students we talked to attend Annandale High School in northern
Virginia. Also taking part in our conversation were psychologist
Patricia Dalton, whose practice concentrates on families and adolescents,
and Clive Thompson, who writes about video games and the Net for Shift
magazine.
You're listening to NPR's ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
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