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Interview: King Abdullah II Discusses Political Reform in Jordan and Spreading of Democracy in the Middle East
All Things Considered: March 21, 2005
King Abdullah of Jordan
ROBERT SIEGEL, host:
This is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED from NPR News. I'm Robert Siegel.
Now a talk with Abdullah II, the British- and American-educated king of Jordan. King Abdullah is in the US this week. His country is the eye of the Middle East storm. Jordan neighbors Iraq and Syria as well as the West Bank and Israel. Most of his subjects are Palestinians, and the king has proposed that the Arab League explicitly offer normalized relations with Israel. He is also a Middle Eastern monarch in a season when democratic reform is being encouraged by Washington. He says Jordan is busily reforming.
King ABDULLAH II (Jordan): We're in the process of pretty aggressive political reform this year. We hope to really be way out there in front of all the other Arab countries starting the end of 2005 to 2006. But, obviously, why we want to have political reform--so that you have a process that's more reflective of your people.
SIEGEL: Do you feel that Jordan is under any pressure from the United States to adopt democratic reforms?
King ABDULLAH: No. We had a process t started way before President Bush launched his Greater Middle East plan. But, quite obviously, having seen the success of Palestinian elections in January and then the success of the Iraqi elections that same month, I think if it hadn't been for the president's pressure on reform throughout the Middle East, I think we would have been a bit more complacent about it.
SIEGEL: Do you anticipate that by the end of your reign, you will be a constitutional monarch accountable to a parliament rather than vice versa?
King ABDULLAH: Well, that's what we're working at. We are somewhat of a constitutional monarchy at the moment. The parliamentarians are elected by the people. They are the ones that give the vote of confidence to a new government. If we don't get a majority vote by the parliament, whatever government that is put in by the king is rejected. But I think that we need to be able to move much further. So to answer the question, fully, yes, at the end of the day...
SIEGEL: But today you're not a constitutional monarch in the European sense of being...
King ABDULLAH: Not in the European sense.
SIEGEL: No.
King ABDULLAH: But, again, when we say `European sense,' the monarch's role, whether you're in Spain or England, is quite different. And so we will have to find our own constitutional monarchy that fits Jordanian society.
SIEGEL: Think you might be more the Spanish counterpart than the British but...
King ABDULLAH: As a very loose example.
SIEGEL: You've spoken a great deal about religion, and you're backing something called the Amman Message. I'd like to ask you about its significance and what you mean by speaking of rehabilitating some preachers?
King ABDULLAH: Well, that's just a small element of the Amman Message. The horrible things that we have witnessed through our society, whether it's 9/11, bombings in the territories, what happened in Spain, what was happening in Iraq, the tragedy of the school in Russia--it was not enough to sit in the security of our own homes, look at the television and say, `This was awful.' I mean, I felt that we needed to get out as the moderate majority that--the silent majority, unfortunately, to draw, so to speak, a line in the sand; to say, `Enough is enough.'
We, as Muslims, believe in God and in the tenets of our religion, and these heinous crimes that are being perpetrated in the name of Islam have nothing to do with our religion. So that was the first impact, and had a tremendous response from all the governments, where they sent all their religious ministries to back the Amman Message. But that's just phase one. Phase two is reaching out to the grassroots support.
SIEGEL: How do you do that? You say what happened in those--9/11 and Madrid had nothing to do with your religion. There is a movement within Islam--perhaps it's small; it's a minority, but it supports this.
KING ABDULLAH: But wait. I don't believe that they're Muslims. I mean, the--we today, unfortunately, use the word `extremist': extremist Muslim, extremist Christian or Jew. You can't believe in God and be an extremist. If--you're either a Christian, Muslim or Jew that believe in the tenets of God, or you're not. And so these people who speak in the name of Islam we don't believe are Muslims.
SIEGEL: What do you do then? What do you do...
King ABDULLAH: Well...
SIEGEL: ...to combat their message?
King ABDULLAH: ...as I said, getting the message out is the first, very small part of many phases. The next thing is to be able to go out, look at the curriculum, give the preachers the right ammunition, get them to win the street back from the extremists. And this is something that can't be done overnight. Now you're talking about, you know, a five-, 10-, 15-year program, not only in the Islamic world but also in the West, for example, in the United States, where you have Muslim communities that, unfortunately, have been affected by this extremist thinking.
SIEGEL: One problem that seems to be if not unique to Jordan, at least something that Americans wouldn't think of that you've spoken of, are the educational qualifications of Muslim preachers in Jordan.
King ABDULLAH: Again, unfortunately, the way that our old education system worked--and, unfortunately, that system is pretty much standard in the Middle East--those that got the lowest university entrance exam grades would go either to media or into religious studies. And as a result, you got people that were at the lower level of education being responsible for some of the most important. And so we've now made it into a master's program for religious studies, with a lot of humanities thrown into it, so that we have the right-caliber intellectual people that are going to go into the clergy, so to speak, to be able to do the right message.
SIEGEL: Sort of leave all the people with the lowest grades to go into the media?
King ABDULLAH: Well, that's the other way of tackling--at the moment in the media, we have abolished the ministry of information, the only one to do so in the Middle East. We're in the process of creating--well, we have a higher council for media--giving it some teeth and creating, really, workshops to be able to bring up the standards. And the way to do that is also, as we've been doing--is privatizing and allowing privatized television, radio and newspapers having more of a role, and hoping that they will help with the universities stepping up the standards, too.
SIEGEL: But are you prepared for the day when the independent media can report, `The king is wrong; we disagree with the king,' and no consequences follow, and it's their right to do that?
King ABDULLAH: And I believe that there has to be that freedom for a country to move forward. It's taken a lot of work. We now have a special judge, a female judge, that is in charge of all issues to do with media. And from now on, any issues that the state has with the media, sure, some reporter could be brought in and questioned about something he or she said. If they're found to be held accountable, then it goes to the civilian courts, as you have here in the United States.
SIEGEL: One last point. You've quoted your late father in speaking of how long it might take for there to be peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians. And you've expressed yourself on how long you think it should take. Do you believe that, within a few years, we're going to see the kind of solution President Bush has spoken of--that is, a viable, independent Palestinian state alongside a secure Israel living in peace--Israel with normal relations throughout the region, as you describe it?
King ABDULLAH: I truly, truly hope so. I look at the president's statement as saying a `viable, independent Palestinian state'--that means to me--the viability part means geographically. And I don't think that we have more than two years, if we're looking at the issue of the wall, settlements and other issues on the ground, that we may be going down the road map all clapping ourselves on the back for the process and then find out that, on the ground, we have no state to talk about.
And, again, here's my concern. I believe that the future of Israel is not to the borders of Jordan or Syria or Lebanon or Egypt. It's from Morocco on the Atlantic to Amman on the Indian Ocean. But that comes at a price of a future for the Palestinians. If we don't have that future for the Palestinians, then my concern is resign our--the Middle East for another decade or so to conflict.
SIEGEL: What must happen within two years, do you think?
King ABDULLAH: Within two years we need to move to final status, basically; that we can guarantee a two-state solution, Israel and the Palestinians living side by side--a two-state solution; a viable, independent Palestinian state. And if we don't have that, then how can we Arabs have a proper peace with Israel? And I'm looking at the larger picture. This issue is bigger than Israelis and Palestinians. It's the whole region. And if Israel wants to be part of the neighborhood--and I believe that they should, and that is their right--it comes at the price of giving a future for the Palestinians. But if physically on the ground we don't have a Palestinian state, then the conflict is going to continue. You can't afford that; we can't afford that. You know, my father said he wanted peace for his children and his children's children. Well, he's talking about us. I don't want my children coming--sitting down with your children having to quote me or quote my father.
SIEGEL: Your Majesty, thank you very much for talking with us today.
King ABDULLAH: Thank you.
SIEGEL: King Abdullah II of Jordan speaking earlier today in Washington, DC.
SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC
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