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Interview: Bishop Noel Jones and Rabbi Allen Freegling Discuss Mel Gibson's Film, "The Passion of Christ"
The Tavis Smiley Show: March 2, 2004
Talking about Mel Gibson's 'Passion': Part 2
TAVIS SMILEY, host:
From NPR in Los Angeles, I'm Tavis Smiley.
Fueled by controversy, Mel Gibson's new film "The Passion of the Christ" continues to rake in major mega bucks at the box office, a whopping $125 million over five days. Whatever its aesthetic value to moviegoers, the film's politically charged depiction of Jews and their role in the death of Jesus has stirred a heated debate.
Yesterday we began the first part of a conversation with Bishop Noel Jones of the City of Refuge Church in Los Angeles and Rabbi Allen Freehling, rabbi emeritus at the University of Synagogue, also here in LA, who examined the history and biblical accuracy of "The Passion of the Christ." We pick up the discussion now with Bishop Jones explaining why Jews should not be blamed for the death of Christ.
Bishop NOEL JONES (City of Refuge Church): For Jesus to have died, the collaboration had to be between Christian, Gentile and Jew.
SMILEY: So there was some collusion there.
Bishop JONES: Definitely.
SMILEY: Yeah.
Bishop JONES: Because Judas was a Christian. Peter was a Christian, spent half the day denying Christ. Pilate, of course, was a Gentile, and the Praetorian Guard, they were Gentiles. Then, of course, we have Caiphas and the Sanhedrin council, and all of them had to come together in order for Jesus to be crucified. But the big blame, if you're going to put culpability in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, you would have to give it to God, the Father, because at the end of the day...
SMILEY: Hey, you lost me on that one. Now back up. Yeah.
Bishop JONES: I mean, theologically, if you're going to blame anybody for his death, Jesus said, `You can't take my life. I lay it down. I'll pick it up when I get ready.'
SMILEY: Yeah.
Bishop JONES: The whole fundamental and rudiment of the Christian theology is that Jesus had to die as Savior. If the Jewish community takes this film as offensive, and with neo-Nazism brewing still in Europe, and I think with all the underlying anti-Jewish things that happen throughout the world, I think they have a right to be nervous about what this film may or may not do, because there's so much anti-Semitism going on all over the world.
SMILEY: But maybe...
Bishop JONES: But here's the difficult...
SMILEY: OK.
Bishop JONES: ...the difficulty is that we do not have a problem with the Jews and Jesus' death. But if in order to get to Mel Gibson, the Jewish community decides to take a theological whack at the canonicity of the Gospels and reduce and devalue the Gospels because of Mel's take, now we're going to have a problem.
Rabbi ALLEN FREEHLING (University of Synagogue): No, I see a different problem. I think the problem may be--and it's only a potential--is to what is said on the pulpit, in the church, on Sunday morning by the bishop's colleagues, not so much of what the Jewish community is going to say and do, but whether, in fact, there are some clergy who will use this film as a way of stirring things up, which would be deterimental in terms of the relationship between the Christians and the Jewish communities. And I'm saying that out of the same orientation that has me very much alarmed about those people in the Jewish community, who I think, in a very self-serving way, were very much out front finding fault with the film long before they saw it, because they must say to their constituents, `You see, there is anti-Semitism. This is why we exist, and this is why you must support us financially,' and therefore, they had to take a hard position, regardless of what that film's all about.
SMILEY: Let me ask two questions, and you can take them in any order you want to take them in. We'll let you go first, Rabbi. One, is there anything socially redemptive about the film? And two, what should I take of this passionate conversation that we are having, the passionate conversation happening across America, about the content and reaction to this film?
Rabbi FREEHLING: The redemptive is to remind ourselves that those people who were the adversaries of Jesus was a small group of Jewish leaders who obviously were very much concerned about their own position of governance, because he was a threat to that, and secondly, that he was a threat also to the Roman occupiers of the land, and therefore, the conspiracy between the priestly group and the Romans were very much in place. Bishop describes the followers of Jesus as Christians. My reading of the Christian Bible tells me that the problem that Jesus had was not with the great populous, as depicted in the film, by the way--I mean, there is this mob that just wants him gone, wants him first of all to suffer many, many agonies and finally to die. My reading and my instructors indicated this was really a small group of the power elite who did not want to let go of thier power. But if you watch the film, you've got to--some people are going to have to walk away believing that the entire Jewish community wanted him destroyed. And, you know, he is one of them and, therefore, there are so many aspects of this story that really need to be analyzed and told, which I think get obliterated by this constant gore that goes on.
SMILEY: Well, maybe--before I give Bishop the last word here to answer those same questions--maybe Gibson, Rabbi, has done us a favor--I don't know--by at least providing us a context for a conversation, never mind the content of what he had to say.
Rabbi FREEHLING: Absolutely so. As long as the conversation is reasonable and logical and people don't use it as an excuse to whip up others and create something that should not be.
SMILEY: All right. Bishop Jones, last word, is there anything socially redemptive about the film and what lessons do you think we ought to learn from the content and the reaction to the film across the country?
Bishop JONES: Well, when you consider Christianity and you understand, especially the evangelical church, our attitude is going to be here is a tool for evangelism. We're going to send a lot of young people out to watch it and we're going to come back and discuss how brutal it was, how he was wounded for you and how you need to be saved.
SMILEY: By the way, I've already noticed that on TBN...
Bishop JONES: Oh, definitely.
SMILEY: ...on Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club." They're pumping the heck out of this thing.
Bishop JONES: They're pumping it.
SMILEY: Yeah.
Bishop JONES: And the thing that is significant here is I don't particularly want to be used as a tool by Mel Gibson if he has another agenda.
SMILEY: Yeah.
Bishop JONES: But that's not the issue. The issue is whatever his agenda is, let my Jewish brothers deal with him, because as far as I'm concerned, they made him rich enough to do this anyway. That's my take on that.
SMILEY: Yeah.
Bishop JONES: So let them deal with that, but the Christian, of course, does not mind Jesus being killed. The Jews, the Gentiles, Pilate--everybody did us a favor to get Jesus killed. Paul said himself that had they know, the princes of the world had known, they would not have crucified the Lord, because his death is significant and resurrection to us. The general reaction from the Christian is going to be, `Oh, my God, what a suffering. He did this for me.' And it should, at the end of the day, depict the love of Jesus for the Christian and for the world, and that is the reaction that will come generally. Haters are going to hate. I look at the Holocaust--and it's a very sensitive subject to our Jewish brothers--and I look at the Holocaust, and it's depicted in a way that we should all remember the atrocities that people have rendered to other people. These things have to be remembered that in every group of people, there are a few bad, rotten people who do awful things, but we don't need to hate everybody because of it.
SMILEY: We will leave it at that. I assume this conversation will continue to rage in the country.
Rabbi FREEHLING: Oh, yeah, definitely.
SMILEY: We're just really scratching the surface here.
Bishop JONES: That's right.
SMILEY: But I'm delighted, as I always am, to be in the company of two great minds, Rabbi Allen Freehling and Bishop Noel Jones, and a pleasure to see you both. Thanks for coming by.
Rabbi FREEHLING: Thank you.
Bishop JONES: Thank you definitely.
SMILEY: It's 29 minutes past the hour.
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