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INTERVIEW: JOYCE DAVIS ON HER NEW BOOK "MARTYRS: INNOCENCE, VENGEANCE AND DESPAIR IN THE MIDDLE EAST"
Weekend Edition Saturday: July 5, 2003
 Martyrs
SCOTT SIMON, host:
Why would anyone live to become a martyr? Why would someone live to die? The question may be at the center of the perplexity American policy-makers sometimes feel when dealing with international terrorism. We all may think we understand the motivations of terrorists who kill, but what about those who plan attacks in which they die themselves while taking other lives? Joyce M. Davis has written a new book that tries to explore some of the motivations of suicide bombers and their families and scholars, clergy, militants and terrorists. Her book is called "Martyrs: Innocence, Vengeance and Despair in the Middle East." Joyce Davis, who used to work at NPR's foreign desk, is the deputy foreign editor of Knight Ridder newspapers and joins us in our studios.
Glad to have you back.
Ms. JOYCE M. DAVIS (Knight Ridder Newspapers): It's great to be here.
SIMON: You make a point early on in saying we need to remind ourselves Muslims are not the only people in the history of the world or even today who have their martyrs.
Ms. DAVIS: This has not been unknown in history, not necessarily blowing up your body but certainly being very willing to die. I mean, we go back even to biblical days of Sampson, who was willing to bring the house down, crushing himself, in order to basically kill his tormentors.
SIMON: You have the story of a young man whose image became very well-known around the world and his story, Mohammed al Dirrah...
Ms. DAVIS: Yes.
SIMON: ...fifth-grader killed while crouching beneath his helpless father. And I believe his father said that his little boy said, `For the love of God, protect me, Baba(ph),' while he was caught in cross-fire between Israeli troops and Palestinian troops.
Ms. DAVIS: To watch this little boy and, frankly, on the other side, to read the stories of the Israeli children who are killed in this mayhem, this chaos, is to understand just how horrible things have become. But it is these kinds of innocent martyrs, these innocent deaths, that are behind much of the rage in the region. I mean, one of the interviews I did was of a mother whose son, 13-year-old boy, was killed. And what she told me, she says, `My son will not have died in vain.' So she says, `Every time the flames die down, I'm out there with the other mothers stirring them back up again.' So, yes, on both sides people use these stories to keep the fires of hatred burning.
SIMON: You have a section set in Iran which seems to make a special culture of martyrdom.
Ms. DAVIS: That's a fair way to put it, frankly. The issue of death and martyrdom is so pronounced in Iran, you can't help but notice it. I mean, many of us who've visited Iran also have seen the pool of blood, the fountain of blood I think they call it. I mean, it's not really blood, but it certainly looks like it. So that gives you a sense of--I mean, there are pictures and posters to remind you constantly of people who have died and of the martyrs. So...
SIMON: Where is the fountain of blood?
Ms. DAVIS: It's in Tehran.
SIMON: Yeah.
Ms. DAVIS: It's in Tehran as well, as is the Martyrs Museum that I visited.
SIMON: Yeah.
Ms. DAVIS: And you walk into that museum, and the floor is all carpeted in red. And, of course, it's meant to be symbolic of the blood of the martyrs. But throughout that society there is this emphasis on remembering the sacrifice of the dead and on the nobility of dying for a cause.
SIMON: You write about a woman, and I confess I had not heard of her before: Loula Abboud.
Ms. DAVIS: Loula Abboud, yes.
SIMON: Nineteen years old, Lebanese woman, who may have been an inspiration, dare I say a model, for some of the young women suicide bombings we've worried about over the past couple of years.
Ms. DAVIS: What is so surprising about Loula Abboud, and that points to the complexity of this whole issue, is that Loula Abboud was not even a Muslim. She was an Orthodox Christian. She had led what she called a resistance movement and gathered some of her friends, and they were fighting the Israelis who had come into southern Lebanon.
SIMON: Well, what year was this?
Ms. DAVIS: This was in the '80s.
SIMON: Early '80s.
Ms. DAVIS: The early '80s. And they had...
SIMON: At the time of the Israeli incursion...
Ms. DAVIS: That's exactly right. She apparently prepared for the time when she would run out of bullets, and they tell the story of their all being surrounded by Israelis. She continues firing to let her friends get away. She runs out of ammunition, but she had prepared for the moment, and as they zeroed in on her, she blew herself up.
SIMON: This week we're seeing a pullback of Israeli forces in Gaza and parts of the West Bank and a truce between Fatah, Islamic Jihad and Hamas. How is it going to affect those who may have even been in the planning or formation of suicide attacks?
Ms. DAVIS: Well, the trainers, the people that I spoke to who decide whose time it is to become the suicide bombers--they tell me that they have a very large cadre of people who are willing to do this. So I would say that we still have people standing in line, ready to carry out such operations when they are needed. But what is good is when you have a peace process going on is that it tends to undercut some of the motivation of some people. If there is any glimmer of hope, you may have fewer young people willing to take this route. But from what I have seen and the people that I have talked to, they yearn for it. They feel there's something far better than what they have on Earth.
SIMON: Joyce, good to have you back.
Ms. DAVIS: Thank you so much.
SIMON: Joyce Davis, author of the book "Martyrs: Innocence, Vengeance and Despair in the Middle East," deputy foreign editor at Knight Ridder newspapers.
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