Where In The World Are The Four Corners?

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ROBERT SIEGEL, host:

Four Corners, USA is the only place in the United States where four states meet: Arizona, New Mexico, Utah and Colorado. There's a monument there. And from the National Geodetic Survey comes word that it's not in the right place. Evidently if the state lines had been properly surveyed back in 1868, they would have marked a spot 1,807 feet farther west, not much of a difference, but enough to put six football fields between what we'll call Four Corners observed and Four Corners for real. Well, Frank Lister of Time Traveler Maps in Cortez, Colorado has been making maps of the west for 20 years. Welcome to the program.

Mr. FRANK LISTER (Time Traveler Maps): Thank you very much.

SIEGEL: You're going to throw out all your maps now of Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado?

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. LISTER: Oh, I hope not.

SIEGEL: How did the surveyors back in 1868, do you figure, how did they figure out where the point should be?

Mr. LISTER: Well, you know, oftentimes they would measure from the stars, as they had at sea and use landmarks and chains and measure that way, just like Lewis and Clark did when they were traveling up the, you know, the Mississippi and the Missouri Rivers, headed towards the west coast. So out in this area it was a lot easier to survey, but they were using a different system than what we use today.

SIEGEL: Yeah, they're using a different system than what we use today. How is that?

Mr. LISTER: Well, the old system was based on the Washington meridian, which I believe went through - started at the Old Naval Observatory in Washington, D.C. And then as time went on, they got into a more universal system, which was using the prime meridian. And there is a discrepancy. And I think survey boundaries and such that were measured in the old way stand the test of law, that it's been to the Supreme Court. So where the monument is located today is technically in the wrong place, but politically it works. It - you know, it is what it is.

SIEGEL: Well, what if you did, say, walk or drive 1,800 feet to the west to find the, we'll say the mathematically correct Four Corners. Would you just be in the midst of a desert, or what kind of terrain is there?

Mr. LISTER: Basically it would be more of the same. Yeah.

SIEGEL: More of the same, I see.

Mr. LISTER: Yeah.

SIEGEL: It wouldn't be radically different scenery (unintelligible).

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. LISTER: No, the scenery would not change much. You'd just be in a little bit different location.

SIEGEL: But there is a souvenir stand, you know…

Mr. LISTER: There - well, you know, it's the only place in America where four states join. So typically what visitors will do is they will sprawl themselves out on top of this monument and have photos taken of them in four states at once. And then around the monument itself are - it's all a Indian reservation. The Navajos are on three-fourths of it, and the Ute Mountain Utes are on a quarter. And they all have these little arts and crafts stands set up around it.

SIEGEL: So you mean you're in four states and two nations or three nations…

Mr. LISTER: Exactly.

SIEGEL: …I guess, counting the United States, as well.

Mr. LISTER: Well, yes. Yeah. Well, you have two sovereign nations and the four states. And, you know, if I was an enterprising Ute or Navajo, I would set up a new marker out there saying this is the true boundary, this is the true spot, you know, the correct Four Corners and go from there.

SIEGEL: Don't believe the other guy's souvenir stand for Four Corners.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. LISTER: Right. Don't believe all you maps, or your history books or anything else.

SIEGEL: Well, Mr. Lister, thank you very much.

Mr. LISTER: Well, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

SIEGEL: That's Frank Lister of Time Traveler Maps in Cortez, Colorado speaking with us about Four Corners, USA, where it is and perhaps where it should be.

A final note for this hour. For the next few weeks, my co-host Melissa Block will not be where you're used to hearing her. She is in China gathering stories ahead of the anniversary of the Chengdu earthquake. You can hear those stories beginning May 4th, but you can get an early taste today online at our Chengdu Diary. Melissa and producer Andrea Hsu have been posting daily to the diary. To read up on what they are seeing, you can just go to our Web site, npr.org.

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