Case of D.C. Mother Shocks Community

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MICHEL MARTIN, host:

I'm Michel Martin. This is TELL ME MORE from NPR News.

Coming up, soul music from an R&B singer with international roots. Her name is Ayo, and we'll talk about her new CD. It's already a huge hit overseas. That's next.

But first, it's time for our weekly check in with the Mocha Moms. We turn to them every week for their common sense and savvy parenting advice.

Now, we know that terrible things happen every day, but some days, the news is just harder to take than on others. Last week, there was a particularly disturbing story that had us all asking questions. A 33-year-old woman, Banita Jacks, was arrested and charged with murder in Washington, D.C. after marshals, who have gone to evict her, found four bodies in the home.

The bodies were determined to be those of her children: the youngest 5 years old, the eldest, 16.

Officials believed the four children may have died as early as last May, all showed signs of a violent end. Prosecutors say Jacks told the police that the kids all died in their sleep and were possessed by demons.

Washington, D.C. mayor says at least six city employees will be fired for their handling of the matter. But today, we want to ask what might drive a mother to this and what could we do - neighbors, teachers, social workers - to prevent this from happening to somebody else?

So we want to talk to our moms: Jolene Ivey and Asra Nomani. We're also welcoming Dr. Kevin Williams. He's a psychiatrist with a family practice in Chevy Chase, Maryland.

Welcome, all.

Ms. JOLENE IVEY (Co-Founder; President, Mocha Moms): Hey, Michel.

Dr. KEVIN WILLIAMS (Psychiatrist): Hello. How are you?

MARTIN: Dr. Williams, we're all, obviously, horrified by this story. But the question, I think, on everybody's mind is how could this happen? I mean, what would be going through someone's mind that would cause this?

Dr. WILLIAMS: From what I've read, it sounds like depression, and psychotic depression to be exact. And this poor woman, you know, it sounds like she's been struggling all of her life, barely making it out of school and having become dependent on what sounds like a decent guy. You know, finally she, you know, had been happy after years of struggling with two other children, and then as life happens, he died of cancer.

MARTIN: That kind of let her unmoored.

Dr. WILLIAMS: Right. And so, I mean, life - you know, people think that life is supposed to be level and stable. But life happens. Good things happen. Great things happen. But sometimes in everybody's life, tragedy happens. And at those times, you need to rely on the skills you have, but also the people around you need to step in and make sure that you're okay. And it sounds like combination of friends, family, state and fed government, you know, kind of let her down.

MARTIN: Everything kind of let her down. Jolene, are the moms talking about this, the moms in your circle talking about this?

Ms. IVEY: Oh, absolutely. It's just such a tragedy. And I think it makes all of us look inward to our own lives, what's happened to us as mothers that may have ever led us to do something like this. It's hard to imagine.

But, you know, I have to confess when I had my first baby and I felt extremely overwhelmed by him and his demands - he wasn't the easiest baby in the whole wide world. And I really had times where I thought, you know, I've got to do something with this kid. Now, I thought about horrible and unspeakable things. And I didn't do them.

Fortunately, I did have, you know, good family, friends around me, and a lot of support, a wonderful husband. But I really struggle myself. And when I look at this woman and say, wow, if she were going through any of the things that I was going through with all the additional stress that she had that I didn't have, I guess it's remarkable that she made it as long as she did in some way.

MARTIN: Why do you think you didn't? I know you're saying there but for the grace of God go I. Why do you think you didn't?

Ms. IVEY: You know, I bet that most people, if they're really honest with themselves, most people have times in their life that they struggle to continue on and to do the right thing. And the reason why you continue on is because you have the support of people around you.

And so that's why, to me, this is a real wake-up call. I have people in my life that I look at and say, you know what? I'd better go check on her, you know? She's got a lot on her right now. Or he has a lot on him. And the average person could snap. So maybe I should go check. And I think that's what we all need to do is - you know, they say it takes a village to raise a child. I think it takes a village to raise a mom. And we really need to support each other during times like this.

MARTIN: Asra, what do you think?

Ms. NOMANI: You know, I see little bit of Banita Jacks in all of us, honestly. I feel like when I look in the mirror, there but actually for the grace of my parents go I. I have a certain level of empathy when I heard the news, because it wasn't that long ago when I had my breakdown moment. I, you know, I had a really hard weekend. I had decided to take my son out to P.F. Chang's for a mom and son dinner. I did all the right things, I thought. I took the toy. I took, you know, entertainment. And all around me, I could see the moms and the dads and the kids, right?

And we had that lovely meltdown moment. You know, that moment when everything just crumbles. And I didn't have an extra set of hands with me to, you know, scoop my son out of the restaurant, and I tried as hard as I could. The waiter helped me gather everything together. But as I was leaving, this elderly white man with his family all around him said over to us, shut up. And I was so heartbroken because this man, who probably had had a really good wife taking care of all of his kids, just didn't understand, you know, the struggle, I mean, the sense of failure that you feel at that moment, all of that. And I'm so much more privileged than Banita Jacks, right?

And as my son cried himself to sleep on the drive home, I just wept and wept and wept because my parents weren't there with me that week by chance. I felt like I had to get him to school. I couldn't get him to circle time and time. I had to make money during the day, get dinner on the table.

And, you know, when I parked our car in the garage, I had that thought, you know, that thought that, well, gosh, if we just keep the car running, right? Then we can just finish it all off, like we can just end this misery.

And I'm a mom, so I don't want my son to have that scar of not living with his mom, so then I'll have to take him with me, right? And that seems to be the loving - lovely thing to do.

So when I heard about Banita, I saw myself. I mean, I saw all of us, so vulnerable and so near that precipice. And it was only my own parents who gave me the unconditional love when I needed it that I think saved me. And that is what we all need.

MARTIN: If you're just joining us, I'm Michel Martin. You're listening to TELL ME MORE from NPR News. And we're talking with the Mocha Moms and Dr. Kevin Williams about a tragic case here in Washington.

Dr. Williams, do you think that that's pretty common? I mean - and what is it that takes it over the edge from that feeling of sort of panic and desperation that so many parents feel, and we're all ashamed of. I mean, who are we kidding? You know, we're all ashamed that we even feel this way ever. But we do. And I don't know, we all. I can't speak for everybody, but is this common, number one? And what is it that takes it over the edge? And then let's talk about what it is that we could possibly do to be more helpful to our friends, our neighbors in times like that.

Dr. WILLIAMS: I absolutely agree with all three of you. I mean - and for the record, it really is common to all of us. All right, and so, you know, postpartum depression has been studied. It's official. It's, you know, diagnosable.

Jolene said that, you know, it takes a village, right, to raise a child. And we're all familiar with that, you know, a West African statement. And I would just like to say that it takes a village to be a village. Because what I believe is that we, as village members, have to go ahead and do our parts, even when people are resisting, and make sure that the services that need to be available avail themselves, all right. Whether it's us - because, you know, we have friends, we have family, we have neighbors. We are our sisters' and brothers' keepers, I believe. But if you are failing in your attempt, don't just gather yourself in and just say, hey, well, I tried. You have to pass it on to someone.

MARTIN: Well, talk about that, because there were people who did try. I mean, neighbors said, look, they knocked on the door, the mom presented herself at the door, never the kids and they'd say, you know, are you okay? And she'd say, yeah, everything's fine. They saw strange things. You know, like the kids are all bringing the furniture into the backyard. And they think, what's that about? But they didn't - you know, it's kind of mind-your-own-business kind of a…

Dr. WILLIAMS: Right.

MARTIN: …culture. So, what do you do? What would you do?

Dr. WILLIAMS: Right. And, you know, I know that, you know, in today's society, part of our village has become litigious. And so people are worried that if they get too involved, maybe they'll be sued or, you know, physically harmed, right? But still, if you see something going on, you can write a letter and don't sign it. An anonymous letter works very well, sent to the Department of Children and Families, sent to the woman's church, you know, whoever you believe could have a positive impact, that's who I believe you should pursue.

MARTIN: Jolene, any questions?

Ms. IVEY: Well, it really just brings back to mind just how important it is for us to all not to be afraid to reach out for each other and not to put your own concerns about how annoying you might be being to your neighbor or whatever when you go over and knock on that door again and call that school again. And to try to put that first, the well-being of the person who's near you first and not be so afraid for yourself.

MARTIN: Asra, any questions?

Ms. NOMANI: I think it would be really great if the doctor could talk about how it is that, you know, this is ultimately a mental health issue. And that's why we have a psychiatrist here. And I think that it's so important for folks to understand that part of what you lose when you become mentally unhealthy is insight, and so you close the door on help. And that's why you should literally close the door. I mean, when I was in my abyss, I yelled and screamed at my parents.

I mean, they took nothing personally because they knew I just wasn't healthy. And so I think it would be really great for people to know sort of how it is that you, you know, look at it a little bit more clinically, you know, rather than personally so that you can understand that the person needs regular meals. They need to get their sleep. You know, they need maybe medication and the absence of whatever stress there is.

I mean, I can just imagine the pressures on that mom getting meals cooked for that - their four children, getting the kids off to school in the morning and dealing with the death of her husband. So I think that would be really helpful.

Dr. WILLIAMS: I think that most people now at least know that mental health issues are - if they don't totally believe in it, they at least partially know that there's something out there that they should at least consider as, you know, causal. All right, and I'm trying to be cautious as I say these things because I know that there's a kind of wide variety of thought about mental illness.

Postpartum depression after the baby, you know, was delivered, it's an extremely happy event. It usually is. The, you know, baby's healthy, everybody's around, you know? But for the mom, you know, there's been nine months of definite excitement. It's a hormonal change that's like, you know, overnight could be equivalent to having a period for nine months, right? with the way that the progesterone and estrogen levels change, all right? So…

MARTIN: But the youngest child was 5 years old.

Dr. WILLIAMS: Good. I was going to - I'm definitely going to try to get to that. So I was starting there because people kind of recognize that that one can actually really happen, because with the baby being delivered, now the hormonal levels change, the baby is gone, there's a combination of hormonal and neurotransmitter changes, but also social changes, right? So the attention that the mom was getting before as she's pregnant, everyone's, oh, you look so beautiful. You look great. When's the baby coming?

Now the baby's out. What I tell - say to some of my clients is is that just imagine running across a field - right? A hundred people running across a huge field. And 10 of the people step in a gopher hole. You're not going to say to the people who stepped in the gopher hole that, hey, you've got bad ankles, if they break their ankle, right? Life gives us gopher holes. This woman had several gopher holes. We don't know about her early development, but definitely, you know, having her not doing well in school, you know, to have her self-esteem issues around that - first child at 16.

She says she had a sixth grade education, but she was in high school. So, you know, maybe she was told that, you know, her intellectual, you know, achievements were only sixth grade, had trouble with the next dad, didn't happen. Tried a lot to help her get finances. She's had multiple gopher holes through her life. And now, a huge one, she's finally found a man who's being a man and helping her and staying with his children, and things are good.

He - from one of the articles I read, you know, he'd work at McDonald's, anywhere he needed to work to make sure they had food on the table and clothes and, you know, had, you know, a good family life.

MARTIN: As a mental health professional, Dr. Williams, are there ways in which you think that society could better support people who are in these circumstances? Because as we all pointed out, there's just a lot of things going on with this family - extreme poverty, not a lot of, you know, emotional resources, financial resources. But what do you think - what would you like -if there's one thing you could do differently, you think would make a difference, what would it be?

Dr. WILLIAMS: I'm thinking more globally. So I think that we, as the village members, need to be more honest with ourselves first, our inner circle of family and friends, about our feelings and about those times when we are emotionally, spiritually weak, and how we deal with them. And you'll find out when you do that that other people are feeling similarly and have gone through similar times. And so it's, you know, it's a feeling that, okay, you know, we are all vulnerable creatures on this planet and we should, you know, unite together. And strength comes in understanding, help for each other.

MARTIN: Jolene, I'm going to give you the last word here. because I'd like to ask - in addition to being a mom and also a state legislator and - this didn't happen in your jurisdiction. But I'd like to ask you what you think should happen from a policy perspective as a result of something like this. Because one of the things we - occurred to us is that you can always call the police, but you can't - and you get instant response. But you don't necessarily - you can't call a mental health professional and get instant response. I don't know if you'd had some thoughts about this.

Ms. IVEY: Well, actually, that would be a wonderful thing, if we could have to work, that way that when you - there'd be a hotline that you could call, and perhaps in some jurisdictions there are, that you could just call one number and say I'm very concerned about this family. Here's their location. Please do something about it. And that kind of thing - I mean, I know there is already a requirement if a teacher is concerned about child abuse, then they're required to report it. The problem happens - just things fall through the cracks, and I think that's what happened here.

MARTIN: Mocha Moms Jolene Ivey and Asra Nomani joined us here in our studio in Washington. We were also joined by Dr. Kevin Williams. He runs a family psychiatric practice in Chevy Chase, Maryland.

For more on the Mocha Moms, you can visit our Web site at npr.org/tellmemore.

Everybody, thank you so much.

Ms. IVEY: Thanks, Michel.

Ms. NOMANI: Thank you.

Dr. WILLIAMS: Thank you.

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