Roundtable: GOP Losses, Patriot Act, Racist Blacks

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ED GORDON, host:

This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Ed Gordon.

On today's Roundtable, Maryland's lieutenant governor calls his black critics racist. Also is Libby worse than Lewinsky? We'll talk about that today on our Roundtable with New York editorial writer from the New York Post, Robert George. Joining us from our Chicago bureau is Laura Washington of the Chicago Sun-Times. She's a columnist there. And George Curry, editor in chief of The National Newspaper Publishers Association New Service. He joins us today from Maryland.

All right. Folks, one of the things that we want to talk about today is what we talked about I guess last week and that's Maryland Lieutenant Governor Michael Steele and he has been berated by a number of African-Americans. We talked about a doctored picture of him in blackface on a Web site and he has currently suggested in a recent interview that he thinks that it diminishes leadership and most importantly embarrasses the state and other elected officials. And he has suggested that when his character comes under attack and the like, that it really does not bode well, that all of this is simply because he's a Republican and anyone who does that in terms of the attack and who is black, he sees as racist just as a white might call him the N-word. George Curry, is this a little bit of a stretch or do you buy it?

Mr. GEORGE CURRY (Editor In Chief, The National Newspaper Publishers Association News Service): I wouldn't call it racist but I would say this. As a person who has ridiculed Clarence Thomas and being proud of it, I think you need to make the distinction between people who are Republican and have the interests of the African-American community at heart. I mean, you can be a Republican and still be black. Let's go there first. I mean...

Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): Thank God.

Mr. CURRY: ...when you go back to William Coleman or you go back to the old-line Republicans, they were Republican but they never gave up civil rights. And the difference is--look, Clarence Thomas is totally different. He still, for example, supports affirmative action. He's not a Clarence Thomas and so I wouldn't give him the same treatment I would give a Clarence Thomas, but on the other hand, I've got to say when you're in the public eye, you're a public official, you've just got to take it and be ready for any kind of ridicule, especially from editorial cartoonists or anybody else. That's part of the landscape, but I would make a real distinction...

GORDON: His suggestion, though, George is it's beyond just the political lampooning, that others are taking potshots at him he things unfairly as well.

Mr. CURRY: Well, I mean, you know, I'm going to talk about the black part because I think it's so important because there are people in the Republican Party, black, who really do care about the community and I think that you do have a different standard. But in terms of lampoon--I mean, some of the things are unfair, like, you know, pulling his credit report and those kinds of things. I mean, it has gone over the line. It really has.

Mr. GEORGE: And exactly and, I mean, I think also it has to be kept in context. This interview that he had followed up a previous story where a number of Maryland black Democrats seemed to be saying that some of the racial language and some of the stunts such as, you know, throwing Oreo cookies at him during the campaign and so forth seem to be legitimate. In fact, I think one woman was quoted as saying, "You know, party trumps race especially at the national level." So I think in the specifics that Steele was talking about, I think he had an absolutely legitimate point because again this was also the context of it seemed like some of these local politicians in Maryland, some of the local black politicians, were basically in a sense saying that some of the Sambo and minstrel imagery that had appeared on this Web was--you know, seemed to be fair.

Now in fairness, Kweisi Mfume who could very well end up facing Michael Steele in a general election, he said that, you know, that kind of stuff has absolutely no place in the politics and good for him for standing up and saying that.

Ms. LAURA WASHINGTON (Columnist, Chicago Sun-Times): Absolutely.

GORDON: And we should note in the general election for the Senate seat in Maryland.

Mr. GEORGE: In the Senate seat, that's correct.

Ms. WASHINGTON: Absolutely, it has no place. If these were white politicians who were throwing these kinds of racial epithets and images at Mr. Steele, they'd be excoriated.

Mr. GEORGE: Absolutely.

Ms. WASHINGTON: There should be no difference here. This is about playing the race card. We can't tolerate a double standard. We can't say that we won't accept that kind of treatment from white politicians or from anybody white and then turn around and say it's OK when it's just among us.

Mr. CURRY: You mean...

Ms. WASHINGTON: The other thing you've got to think about is whether or not this is pertinent to what he...

GORDON: Yeah, let's be honest. That happens quite a bit with African-Americans who run against African-Americans. I mean, you know...

Ms. WASHINGTON: We're not supposed to challenge each other.

GORDON: ...we talk about the race card.

Mr. GEORGE: We so...

GORDON: You know, we talk about the race...

Ms. WASHINGTON: And we're not supposed to challenge...

GORDON: ...card when whites play it. Yet, you know, there is this kind of wink and a nod in politics among blacks to find out who's, quote, "blacker."

Ms. WASHINGTON: That's...

Mr. GEORGE: In fact--and just a few years ago in the race between Mayor Sharpe James and Cory Booker in Newark, you had a case where James, the incumbent, successfully, you know, painted Booker as being sort of, you know, kind of the light-skinned tool of white Republican interests, and he won re-election by doing that.

Ms. WASHINGTON: And Cory Booker--wait, wait, wait. Can I...

Mr. CURRY: I think we need to not forget, too, that this is part of--go ahead.

GORDON: Hang on, George. We interrupted her.

Mr. CURRY: Right.

Ms. WASHINGTON: Yeah.

GORDON: Laura, go ahead and then, George, pick up.

Ms. WASHINGTON: And Cory Booker is going to come back, but, you know, you also have to wonder whether those kinds of attacks are really going to weaken him or strengthen him among his base if his base is, indeed, mainly white Republicans. There might be a sympathy factor there. I think that you can always beat a candidate on the issues and you don't need to bring the race card up. Here in Chicago, you'll recall last year we had a race between Alan Keyes and Barack Obama for the US Senate. Alan Keyes has a very conservative base. All of his support was white. He did--in his positions and his agenda, he had little interest to the black voter. Barack Obama didn't have to go racial on him. The voters simply just ignored him.

GORDON: But, Laura, that wasn't even a real race.

Ms. WASHINGTON: That's what you can do...

Mr. GEORGE: Special--that was a special case.

GORDON: We're not really looking at that, though.

Ms. WASHINGTON: Absolutely, but I still think that you can always beat somebody on the issues, and when you have to resort to name-calling of any kind, you undercut yourself.

GORDON: George, you wanted to say?

Mr. CURRY: Yeah, I don't think we get too carried away that part of this is part and parcel of politics. I mean, I don't see it as that much different from what happened in Virginia being nasty--or in New Jersey even more so when the ga--pulled out a guy's ex-wife and used that as a commercial. I mean, part of it is rough politics. But the other part of it is there is a point where you go over the line. For example, he would speak at Morgan State and throwing Oreo cookies at him I thought was unfair and I think he can stand on his own issues. And again I make a distinction between Steele and Clarence Thomas.

GORDON: All right. Let's turn our attention to the latest numbers from the Pew Research Center and that's for The People & the Press, and they take a look, for those who aren't familiar, and take snapshots in time of the political fever of the United States. Most recently poll they took really speaks to where the American public is with much of what is surrounding George Bush's White House. Seventy-nine percent of those who were polled said that the recent indictment of Lewis Libby is a matter of at least some importance to the nation. That is in contrast--they released this--a greater percentage of people who believe that when Clinton lied under oath about the sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky where the number rose to only 65 percent. With that juxtaposition, Laura, as a guide, does this, in fact, speak to how important people are seeing this indictment of a man who sits so close to the vice president?

Ms. WASHINGTON: You're talking about the difference between sex in the White House and potentially criminal activity in the White House. And I do indeed think that people are making that distinction. I'm frankly a little surprised that there's that high level of awareness because the folks out in Washington will tell you this is just a Washington story. On both sides of the fence, they'll tell you, `This is just, you know, typical insider politics and this is a minor thing. It's about lying,' but that's exactly what the Clinton issue was. It was also about lying. I think the key reason why this issue is going to stay alive is that because Mr. Libby has decided to fight this indictment and he's going to fight it tooth and nail to keep himself out of jail, and in the process, there's going to be a need for testimony from high-level officials in the White House, maybe even Dick Cheney. This story's going to roll out and continue to roll out into the midterm elections. And I think public interest is going to grow with it.

GORDON: Here are the two numbers that interest the...

Mr. GEORGE: I think I've seen that poll, too.

GORDON: Go ahead, George.

Mr. CURRY: The thing that was really interesting to me was the mounting criticism. For example, you see that an increasing number of Americans found that the US--they thought that the US and British leaders were lying when they claimed that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. I mean, you see that. You see that 42 percent think Libby's guilty. They've already reached a verdict on it before the trial. And I'm looking at the trend there. When you keep looking at these Pew studies, it's getting worse. Most of the Americans feel that they have been duped.

Mr. GEORGE: Well...

GORDON: And, George, you beat me to my question. Robert, pick up on this and then you guys can follow up. And, George, that was going to be my next question. The most interesting numbers to me are what you just said. It shows a plurality of Americans, 42 percent, believe that Libby is, in fact, guilty of the charges that are brought against him and 43 percent believe that US and British leaders lied when claiming Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. Yet it seems as though--and I'm reading into these numbers admittedly so, but I said this the other day. It seems to me that the American people have just almost resigned themselves to lies from politicians.

Mr. GEORGE: Or you've been duped, you've been hoodwinked, bamboozled. I think that's partly the case. What I think is very interesting here, though, is that until just before special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, you know, came out with his indictment of Libby, you know, unlike, you know, the Monica Lewinsky thing, because it is sex, obviously, everybody was covering it at the time. This was something that had not been really, you know, 24/7 on all of the cable stations. And I think it's very interesting that so quickly people have become aware of what's going on which is something I tell my conservative and Republican friends, you know, it is a major mistake for them to think that it's just going on in Washington and so forth. People are paying attention to it, and it speaks to the credibility certainly of Dick Cheney. It speaks to the credibility of President Bush. And I say this as a Republican. I think he has to, in a sense, be, in a sense, more straightforward in terms of what he feels is going to be appropriate behavior. It's not just a matter of they're now sending White House aides to, you know, ethics classes and all this other kind of stuff. If he really wants to be successful in terms of his Iraq and other foreign policy, he has to once again try and restore the credibility of his administration or otherwise he's going to be floundering for the next three years.

GORDON: Here's some interesting...

Ms. WASHINGTON: It's going to be...

GORDON: ...numbers out of this, though, and, Laura, follow up on this, the idea that almost 2:1, those surveyed here suggest that the nomination of Judge Samuel Alito is favorable to this administration.

Ms. WASHINGTON: Well, I think the administration has to first pull itself out of a trick bag that it put itself in in terms of its own responses in the Libby scandal. But, you know, they've been saying all along that there was no one in the White House who was feeding information to reporters about Valerie Plame. And now clearly that is not the case. They've repeatedly said that over and over again. In the campaign commercials of whoever the Democratic candidates are going to be are going to be replete with video of White House spokespeople saying, `We didn't know. We didn't do this. We didn't do that. We didn't say this. We didn't say that.' So not only is the president going to, as Robert says, have to, you know, sort of fess up and be more forthright but he's going to have to try to undo a lot of damage that he's already done himself.

GORDON: All right. But let me take you back to the...

Mr. CURRY: The Alito appointment contains...

GORDON: Yes.

Mr. GEORGE: And I think you have to look at it in the context of...

Mr. CURRY: The Alito part--Ed. Ed, let me go back to your Alito question. Let me go back to your Alito question.

GORDON: Yeah, go ahead.

Mr. CURRY: It does not rank high on the public's attitudes in terms of high issues--I mean, in fact, if you look at the report, only 5 percent thought it was an important issue. They were much more concerned about the war, the death, the hurricane aftermath and Libby all way ahead of Alito. So I just don't think that he's really on the radar screen yet.

Mr. GEORGE: But it's also in the context of the debacle of Harriet Miers, and I think the few people who are familiar with Alito, at least recogni--even though they may not know all about his philosophy, they at least recognize him as somebody who, you know, is--you know, actually is a man of quality and at least reaches the bar of being, you know, acceptable in terms of qualifications.

GORDON: Well, does that still speak to how the layperson looks at an appointment for the Supreme Court? George, you suggest that it isn't high on their radar screen, but people have to at some point realize how important these nominations are, whether you like the nominee or not.

Mr. CURRY: I think they understand that it's important, but let's put this in perspective. Number one is the Iraq War. That's the number one thing on their issues--I mean, on their mind. Katrina, that's second. And then the Libby stuff. So when you think about the war and Katrina, you know, I understand why the numbers are higher.

Mr. GEORGE: Yeah, but the irony of that...

Ms. WASHINGTON: I would just...

Mr. GEORGE: ...is, though, that, you know, Katrina is in the big picture, it's a temporary situation. And even Iraq may be going for a couple more years, but Alito, you're talking about a Supreme Court nominee who could be on the court and influencing policy for the next 30 years. So it's interesting at how people recognize what's important and what's not.

GORDON: And to a great degree...

Ms. WASHINGTON: Well, I thin...

GORDON: ...that's the question, Laura, in the sense that if we take those numbers, 11 percent felt that, in fact, the Libby case was more important in juxtaposing it to the 5 percent who suggested the appointment of the Supreme Court nominee was important.

Ms. WASHINGTON: Well, I think again it's been said quality, I think, trumps the controversy that gets pushed on--in terms of specific issues that Supreme Court candidates have been identified with. I think people are looking for quality as you saw in a John Roberts and I think as you'll see in Alito. I would also add to George's list, though, the economy. And I think Katrina is directly related to that, the economy, the rising gas prices, concerns and fears about housing prices. I think that those are the things, those are the pocketbook issues that people are really worried about now.

Mr. GEORGE: And, Ed...

Ms. WASHINGTON: And I think there's a lot of concern that the Bush administration is not addressing those pocketbook issues.

Mr. GEORGE: And if there is even maybe a glimmer of hope that the Republicans might be looking at in some of these numbers, the only thing they may put their finger on is the fact that gas prices have dropped quite a lot in the last month and that may influence on how people feel about the economy.

Mr. CURRY: But that was after they reported those profits, Robert. They had to do something.

Mr. GEORGE: Well, you know...

GORDON: Let me ask you all, with literally...

Mr. GEORGE: ...take the money and run, right?

GORDON: ...about a minute and a half to go as it relates to what we saw yesterday, I asked this of our two political experts: Do we see--can we read anything out of what we saw yesterday in terms of any victories across the country and whether or not we are going to see the black base energized when midterm elections come? Real quick for me, guys.

Mr. GEORGE: Just very, very quickly. Here in New York and, in fact, the big states, the party in power kept power. I think Michael Bloomberg was somebody who managed to come across as a moderate Republican, made himself acceptable to the black community, and I think that's why he basically was able to split the Democratic base.

Mr. CURRY: I don't see anything revolutionary but you see pockets, particularly in northern Virginia, that were Republican did turn, and that became a referendum on George Bush.

GORDON: Laura.

Ms. WASHINGTON: I see two ongoing trends that don't have anything to do with the black vote and that is the influence of money and politics. You know, $73 million in a New Jersey race was spent. Bloomberg alone spent $66 million. So I think...

Mr. GEORGE: And still ...(unintelligible) growing.

Ms. WASHINGTON: Pardon?

Mr. GEORGE: And still counting actually.

Ms. WASHINGTON: Yeah. And absolutely still counting. And actually that does have a connection to black voters in the sense that we don't have access to those kinds of dollars and that puts us at an...

GORDON: Yeah.

Ms. WASHINGTON: ...extreme disadvantage.

Mr. GEORGE: Mayor Bloomberg even put a lot of money in a lot of black media and radio here, too. He was going after every single vote he could get, and, you know, more power to him if he's got the money for it.

Mr. CURRY: And he's got the money.

GORDON: All right. I just let that go silent for a reason, but all right. George, Laura and Robert, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Mr. GEORGE: Thanks a lot, Ed.

Mr. CURRY: All right.

GORDON: You're listening to NEWS & NOTES from NPR News.

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