Army Generals on Gates, Troops, Part II

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MELISSA BLOCK, host:

This is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED from NPR News. I'm Melissa Block.

ROBERT SIEGEL, host:

And I'm Robert Siegel.

We're hearing from retired Army Generals Barry McCaffrey and Robert Scales about the confirmation hearing for Robert Gates to be defense secretary. On some non-Iraq issues, here's part of an exchange today between Mr. Gates and Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia.

Senator ROBERT BYRD (Democrat, West Virginia): Who is responsible, Dr. Gates, in your judgment, for the 9/11 attacks, Saddam Hussein or Osama Bin Laden?

Dr. ROBERT GATES: Osama Bin Laden, Senator.

Senator BYRD: Over the past five years, who has represented the greater threat to the United States, Saddam Hussein or Osama Bin Laden?

Dr. GATES: Osama Bin Laden.

SIEGEL: And when pushed further, Mr. Gates said that he looks forward to being briefed on what's been done to catch Osama Bin Laden and how more might be done.

General McCaffrey, is the answer the same as the answer to more troops in Iraq? That is, can the military do any more than it's now doing to try to get Osama Bin Laden?

General BARRY McCAFFREY (Retired, U.S. Army): Well, you know, first of all, I think the CIA and the special operations community are doing a terrific job worldwide, 40-some-odd countries, working with - particularly with indigenous forces, Pakistan and elsewhere - Indonesia, The Philippines. Eventually, probably we'll pick this fellow up, but they have decimated many of these terrorist groups.

They're behind bars, they're dead, they're apprehended. We've get them on Diego Garcia, in Bagram Airfield, in Guantanamo. And the conventional forces, by the way, could surge. We could fight the North Koreans with a quarter of a million people if we had to. So there is still capacity in the armed forces, but the bottom line is look, this thing has run its course. We've got to take diplomatic and political interventions now, not just depend on military power.

SIEGEL: I want to ask Bob Scales a question about a word that figured a little bit in the hearings today. If we weren't at war in Iraq, it probably would've dominated confirmation hearings for Defense secretary - transformation. Should the defense secretary pursue the continued transformation of our military to a higher-tech, more mobile military or, in fact, has the war in Iraq given that transformation a bad name and given pause about doctrine?

General ROBERT SCALES (Retired, U.S. Army): That's a great question, Robert. The new secretary has to allocate resources, and he can put them into one of three pots. He can buy more boots on the ground to the cost of about a billion dollars per 10,000 men, he can fix the $17 billion worth of broken legacy or existing equipment left over from the Cold War or he can invest in the future. That is, he can buy - he can invest in the technology and the structures and so forth that will allow us to fight this generational conflict with something other than Cold War equipment.

Again, it goes back to balance. I think my bias is for transformation, but I don't believe that's going to be the top thing on Mr. Gates's plate.

SIEGEL: General McCaffrey, briefly, is one lesson of Iraq you should be a little bit more plodding about going and invading countries, having a few hundred thousand more troops ready and more equipment that's working?

General McCAFFREY: Oh sure. Look, this thing was nuts. At 27 million people in that country, with a million men active in reserve force, and we plunged in there with one Marine division and one and a half Army divisions, no military police brigades, armored cavalry regiments, engineer brigades. That was micro-managed misjudgment by Rumsfeld and his senior people.

So you know, we ought to be real reluctant to use military force, and when we do it, we ought to go all out to win both phase one the subsequent phases.

SIEGEL: General McCaffrey and General Scales, thanks to both of you for talking with us.

General McCAFFREY: Good to be with you, Robert.

General SCALES: Thank you, Robert.

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