Rwandan Genocide Remembered

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MICHEL MARTIN, host:

I'm Michel Martin, and this is Tell Me More from NPR News. Every week at this time we talk about issues of faith and spirituality. In a few minutes we'll hear about the Pope's upcoming trip to the U.S., his first. And we'll remember Bishop S.C. Daddy Madison, who died last Saturday at the age of 86. He was the leader of the United House of Prayer For All People, based here in Washington D.C. and founded by the famous preacher Charles Daddy Grace. It's been a force in urban neighborhoods for more than eight decades. But first, we want to pause to remember. This week marks the 14th anniversary of the Rwandan genocide. Jean-Marie Kamatali is from Rwanda. He was there when the genocide began. Now he's a senior fellow at Notre Dame Law Schools' Center for Civil and Human Rights and he joins us from his office in South Bend, Indiana. Thank you both - I'm sorry, thank you so much for speaking with me sir.

Mr. JEAN-MARIE KAMATALI (Senior fellow, Notre Dame Law School Center for Civil and Human Rights): Yeah, hi, Michel.

MARTIN: How are you?

Mr. KAMATALI: I'm fine. I'm fine.

MARTIN: What is this time of year like for you?

Mr. KAMATALI: You know, April is a very difficult month, not only for me but for many people in Rwanda and, as you know, genocide happened in 1994 in April, and that's the month where, actually, many people are really in difficult situation remembering what happened and looking at the future and thinking what actually will look like.

MARTIN: How do you understand now what happened in your country? How do you explain it to yourself?

Mr. KAMATALI: You know, it's very hard to explain, and each year and that's actually why the month of April becomes difficult because you look at the situation in Rwanda, you wonder whether what happened in Rwanda is just typical Rwandan or a typical human being or a typical world we live in. So, it's very difficult but when you look at what happened, you look at the future, you think that maybe there is hope in the future.

MARTIN: Why do you think there's hope in the future?

Mr. KAMATALI: Because I believe that what happened in Rwanda is really the most difficult ever, the highest level for how human beings can be bad and can do really bad things and that's actually how I see that. People - a million people died in Rwanda in 1994, and the economy and everything that really went bad. And looking at how Rwandans have really made progress in rebuilding the country and looking at what actually matters, and I think that's what the future is and accepting, actually, that people can live together.

MARTIN: It is the living together, I think, that so many of us struggle with. The sense that neighbor can turn against neighbor. The fact is that, you know, in Rwanda that Hutus and Tutsis were intermarried, lived side by side, went to the same schools, and I think it's just hard for us to imagine how someone that you went to school with could then, or lived down the street from you, could then turn against you in such a powerful way and then to recover from that and to try to restore trust, to try to live together again. How have people learned to live together again? Or do you think that they have? Do you think that there's lingering mistrust?

Mr. KAMATALI: I think, I think there's a willingness, but the problem is that, you know, people don't lose members of their family and one person left and mother, I mean, losing the children, the husband killed by other member of the family. And just expect people to be in one year, two years, even 10 years to get together because, you know, this is something that really affected the human, I mean, capacity even to understand and to accept, you know, every time you look at that you wish it was a dream but it was a reality.

So, what I see, actually, is that somehow, some people look at the Rwandan situation as a kind of a glass which is at half. and people look at it, you know, it's half full, others say it's half empty. But, you know, when I look at economic development and look at everything that has been done, it looks like there's been good things going on. But on the other hand you see people, especially survivors of genocide who, you know, are almost told to, kind of, speed up the healing and everything. I mean, it's not something you can tell a guy and tell people to speed up or slow, it has to go slowly, step by step. And those steps, I think, some people are really accepting to move on, others are kind of very slow.

But on the other hand, all three have - I mean, genocide was not committed by 10,000 people only, there were just tens of thousands of people and those are people, also, have been in prison, they're out, and these are people who you may meet and see that they're human beings but, you know, they also are destroyed. So, the whole situation in Rwanda is very difficult because the victims and those who committed genocide and the history and the demographic situation in Rwanda, and that's what I see that actually some people move on and others are - they need time. It's goes slow, it takes time for people to accept and heal and everything.

MARTIN: You were the dean of the law school at the National University of Rwanda at the time, is that right?

Mr. KAMATALI: Yeah, it was before, actual dean after 1994, that's when I was dean, yeah.

MARTIN: What role do you think the law plays in recovery from something like this? Because, you know, there are some countries who have sought, you know, tribunals and, you know, international, sort of, human rights trials in order to bring accountability for crimes like this. And other people say that's sort of irrelevant. It doesn't bring the people back. What's your take on that?

Mr. KAMATALI: You know, I believe that justice is necessary and I don't see a society moving on without justice. And this is important to make people know that, you know, you don't just commit a crime and go out and just act as if, you know, I say sorry and that's enough. I believe that justice is very important, it's very important in Rwanda, it's very important in Darfur, it's very important in Uganda, in many places where genocide, really atrocities, take place and it has to be really given the priority.

But justice is not the only thing that is, I mean, it shouldn't be the only thing. It has to be accompanied by some psychological, economic, you know, political changes and that's what I think, also, is needed. So, justice is very important, but it has to be accompanied by some economic, social, and especially dealing with the victims because justice, the way it is structured is just like punishing the perpetrator. Justice has to be also about the victim. What kind of justice the victim is asking for? What kind of justice is the victim needs, and that's what actually is needed, not looking at only justice focusing on the perpetrators, but also trying to see what justice means for the survivor or the person who really suffered during genocide. And then, what I think, genocide has to be more broadly understood in that context.

MARTIN: And, finally, I wanted to talk to you about memory and remembrance. On the one hand we say of many of the great you know, tragedies of, you know, human behavior, like the Holocaust, we say, you know, never forget. On the other hand, memory can cripple. You know, sometimes if people live too deeply in their memories they cannot move forward. How would you want your country to remember this time and how would you want the rest of the international community to remember this time?

Mr. KAMATALI: Yes. I think, I mean, people shouldn't just play with forgetting. I mean, you don't forget. You people can just, OK, forget, forget, but, you know, forget is not like erasing a memory, you don't get people to forget because it's hard. You don't just forget and people have to be actually encouraged to remember. Because, you know, we live in a world where people take 10, 50 years and people start, kind of, forgetting what happened and even denying what happened and that's what I think, actually. What happened in Rwanda is not only Rwandan, it's a kind of for human - it's a world threat and the people have to take it that way.

So, the genocide in Rwanda is something that affected Rwandans, but also affected the whole world and the world has to remember so that it can prevent. If you don't remember, you won't prevent and that's what I think is very important. But remembering doesn't mean, also, that people have to think about revenge. I think, if the situation like in Rwanda, like in other parts of the world, people have to move on and forgive and forgiveness, what I think, is not like you put a stamp on forgiveness, it's a process. It goes slow and it goes by accepting, by integrating, by rehabilitating, and that's how people, kind of feel like victims are reintegrating in society. Because victims, most of the time, they are during genocide and issues like that, they are excluded, they are killed. And I think that the step of reintegrating them in the community, not only in the Rwandan community but also in the world community, and be part of the whole process of rebuilding the country, of rebuilding the world, being part of, really, the rehabilitation. And that what I think is very important. But forgiveness is needed because everyone needs to forgive in order to live. I mean, life is about remembering. But it's also about forgiving and also about moving on and that sort of thing. It's very important. So Rwandans have to remember, but also we need also to forgive. And forgiveness doesn't mean also that I forget justice.

MARTIN: I see. Jean-Marie Kamatali is a senior fellow at Notre Dame's Law School's Center for Civil and Human Rights. He was kind enough to join us from his office in South Bend, Indiana. Mr. Kamatali, thank you so much for speaking with us and spending this time with us.

Mr. KAMATALI: Thank you, Michel.

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