Pope Visits America, Popular Bishop Passes

Copyright © 2009 National Public Radio®. For personal, noncommercial use only. See Terms of Use. For other uses, prior permission required.

MICHEL MARTIN, host:

Now to our other stories. The pope will be visiting the U.S. next week, and we'll be taking a look at his itinerary and the kinds of issues he's likely to address while here. And we want to learn more about a departed leader. Bishop S.C. Daddy Madison died last Saturday at the age of 86. He was the leader of the United House of Prayer for All People, based here in Washington, D.C. Joining us here in our studio to talk about all of this is Hamil Harris, who's covering both of these stories for the Washington Post. Thank you so much for stopping in.

Mr. HAMIL HARRIS (Reporter, Washington Post): It's a pleasure to be here, Michel.

MARTIN: Would you tell us a little bit about the United House of Prayer? I mean it's a very big force in D.C. But it's a national denomination.

Mr. HARRIS: You know, first of all you go to church. You don't expect to see a tuba, trombones, almost a marching band in the name of Jesus. And the House of Prayer, for almost 100 years, has been a church that's really a phenomenon. It's almost a cultural, just kind of something different. And so here's this church that was started by Daddy Grace. And it's only been three leaders in 100 years. And I mean, the ministers almost like bearded like characters with long hair and entourages and again, this Dixieland band.

MARTIN: And its distinctive artwork outside its houses of worship, some of which have been in the Smithsonian.

Mr. HARRIS: I mean, exactly.

MARTIN: And these amazing angels, these afro-centric angels...

Mr. HARRIS: A gold dome. In fact, the headquarters church is called God's White House. I mean, again, it's almost you wonder, it's like, are you worshipping people? Are you worshipping God? But they will quickly tell you it's about God. But even more than the culture and the music and the trombones and the dancing and else, this church is very wealthy, very affluent. They mixed the passion and rawness of New Orleans with the corporate sophistication of Wall Street. They have 25 state churches in 25 states, 150 churches across the country. And again, this is only the third leader to die. So Madison was very unique.

MARTIN: And when you say they're very wealthy, what does that mean? Does it mean they have a lot of real estate?

Mr. HARRIS: Well, for example, even in the Washington, D.C. area, I think the church spans about seven to eight blocks. You think this is the most prime real estate right in central Washington. The church and its members basically have housing, affordable housing, senior-citizen buildings. They even own part mini malls across the country. So, again, they don't talk a lot about the money side of the church, but again, this church is worth in the multimillion dollar organization controlled by a very few people.

MARTIN: I think politically and influentially, you didn't hear - I mean, Daddy Madison was a big figure in D.C. But you didn't see him on the TV, didn't seem him involved in, sort of...

Mr. HARRIS: No, they don't play that. It's amazing how they have always kind of remained insulated or disassociated themselves from local politics. But the politicians will be at this funeral because, again, they can count money and votes. And again, the House of Prayer has been influential in politics. They just kind of do it very privately. And that's kind of unique for preachers who like to be seen in the pulpit with the politicians.

MARTIN: Was there a - you mentioned that all of these leaders had a distinct look.

Mr. HARRIS: Right.

MARTIN: Was that ideological? His long hair.

Mr. HARRIS: Well it goes back to Daddy Grace. And even the image of calling your minister, your bishop, Daddy. And again, you know, Daddy Grace who came from, I think, Cape Verde, who came from the islands and stuff, had this beautiful, long, you know, silky hair. And then Daddy McCullough, which, you know, was Walter McCullough the second, he grew the hair and had the beard. And then Madison had the look. According to the people I'm looking to replace him, I don't see that coming again. But beyond that image, I mean, it's amazing. When they baptize, they have massive baptisms in the street of Washington with fire hoses and people. I mean, it's almost like a historic Pentecostal scene. But, again, when they do their business, it's very serious. There's board of governors, you know, a council of governors will make a very serious decision. So, again, it's a unique church, especially now when so many things are changing. People don't even go to church a lot of times. You have this rawness. I mean...

MARTIN: An intense loyalty and commitment.

Mr. HARRIS: Intense loyalty.

MARTIN: Over a million members. And perhaps when a successor is named, you'll come back and tell us about that.

Mr. HARRIS: Oh, yeah.

MARTIN: Now let's move on to the pope's visit. Is there a lot of excitement about this?

Mr. HARRIS: Oh, sure.

MARTIN: He's coming to Washington first. What's his agenda while here?

Mr. HARRIS: Again, first of all, we know, you know, he's going to have the mass at the Nationals' stadium. Maybe they can change their seven-game losing streak around it. He blesses them, and then he's going to meet with the president, of course. And, you know, the big thing is for local parishioners of the Catholic Church. One thing he's going to do is meet at, you know, Catholic University to talk with university officials. And then everybody said is he going to give them a theological spanking to talk about just, you know, really kind of setting the folks on the straight and narrow.

But more than that, what we're looking at at The Post is, will he connect to ordinary people? Remember, the former pope - I covered him in Baltimore - will he go to the homeless shelter? Will he not just have a photo op, but will he touch people? Will he really impact people? I think that's what we want to see, to really know the heart of this man.

MARTIN: We don't hear as much grassroots excitement about this pope's visit as we did about the prior pope, I mean, who, I know it's an overused term, was sort of a rock star. I wonder, is that a function of the fact that he has not been in the position that long? Or is it a function of personality? Or his biography? Or what he's interested in?

Mr. HARRIS: People don't know him. Italy is a long way. And again, you know, there's so many other things in the world that this pope has not been the type who would just, kind of, go out there and be a man of the people as much. And so again, he is more conservative. He's more, kind of, a behind-the-scenes player. But he's in the United States now. So again, he knows that he has a big mission to show who he is. And that's what we're wanting to see. What is this man going to do?

MARTIN: Hamil Harris is - oh, I'm sorry, Hamil. I have time for one more question, which is that he's had some difficulty. I know that he's going to be visiting a synagogue for Passover in New York. Do you think that outreach to other religions is a big part of this...

Mr. HARRIS: I think it's critical because we know he got in trouble with, you know, the Muslim community. And his comments he made and the threats against him. You know, I think it's very important for him to show that he's part of a larger community of faith. The question becomes, will he have a private meeting and shake hands at a lunch behind closed doors? Oh, he'll go to a synagogue. Will he go and talk to people in the streets? That's what we want to know.

MARTIN: All right. Hamil Harris is a reporter for the Washington Post. He joined us here in our studio. Hamil, thank you so much. It's so good to see you.

Mr. HARRIS: It's so good to see you, my friend.

Copyright ©2009 National Public Radio®. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to National Public Radio. This transcript is provided for personal, noncommercial use only, pursuant to our Terms of Use. Any other use requires NPR's prior permission. Visit our permissions page for further information.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by a contractor for NPR, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of NPR's programming is the audio.