New NAACP Leader Looks Ahead

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MICHEL MARTIN, host:

I'm Michel Martin, and this is Tell Me More from NPR News. In a moment, the Mocha Moms on going green as a family. They'll talk about ways to get started. And things never to say to Asian-American colleagues. We start our series on how to be mindful of the sensibilities of others in our increasingly diverse workplaces.

But first, one of the country's oldest civil rights organizations gets a new leader. The NAACP chose a new president on Saturday, 35-year-old human rights activists Benjamin Todd Jealous. He will be the youngest president ever in the history of the 99-year-old civil rights organization. His election comes after the organization tries to recover from a period of internal strife to engage a new generation of members and to refocus its mission. Ben Jealous joins us now to talk about his new post and hopefully a little bit about himself. Welcome to the program. Congratulations.

Mr. BEN JEALOUS (President, NAACP): Thank you. Thank you. It's great to be here.

MARTIN: You've had a couple of days to take it all in. Can you describe what it means to lead this historic organization founded by giants like W.E.B. Du Bois and Ida B. Wells Barnett.

Mr. JEALOUS: Those two are a big deal to me. I come out of the black press, that's how I learned how to do what I did for Amnesty, and so it's extremely humbling. You know, at the same time, as a parent of a 2-and-a-half-year-old girl, I'm extremely impatient and want to focus on the now, you know, want to focus on the schoolhouse-to-jailhouse pipeline and on making sure that this great association is as important in the 21st century as it was in the last century.

MARTIN: Just to let people know what you're talking about in case they're not aware, you're currently president of the Rosenberg Foundation. That's a private, independent institution that supports civil and human rights. Previously you were at Amnesty International, I'm pretty sure most people know what that is, and you were formerly the head of the National Newspaper Publishers Association, that's a federation of more than 200 black community newspapers. You're formerly a publisher of a newspaper, or a, you know, managing editor of the Jackson Advocate, which is one of the oldest newspapers in Mississippi. Why did you want this, the presidency of the NAACP?

Mr. JEALOUS: You know what, it really goes back to the experience of being a new parent and just being outraged. You know, I mean we were told, you know, starting, you know, in the early 1970s that the battles have been won. I mean, I think our people were inclined to see the end of Jim Crow like the end of slavery, that it was just done. Now in reality, you know, the last complaint that the DOJ received about, you know, a chattel slavery plantation was in the mid to late 1930s. You know, there was still a plantation that was in full operation in Northern Alabama. So the reality is, is that, you know, we win big victories, and then it takes time to really enforce them. And you know, we've also had changes. I mean, you know, we as black people have achieved great heights. We have a black man who may become the next president of the United States. That's sort of, you know, some people will say, you know, there's the end of the ceiling, but, you know, at the same time, this country is the largest incarcerator in the world, you know, a title that was formerly held by the Soviet Union and the former South African Republic, so it's not a really propitious, you know, title that you want to hold onto for too long, and the reality is, is that with that massive incarcerations come a demonization especially of young black men so that, you know, Devah Pager, I want to give a shout out to her at Princeton, fabulous professor, wrote a great break called "Marked" that, you know, really shows that sadly a white man with a criminal record has a harder job - sorry, has a hard time, excuse me, a white man with a criminal record has an easier time getting a job than a black man with no record at all. And then you get a report coming out of UCLA that says that actually it's a benefit to most black men, you know, in the low-wage job market, to have the employer search their criminal record because most of us don't have one, but we're all presumed guilty, you know, from jump. And that, you know, so we shifted, if you will, from discrimination based on presumed inferiority to discrimination based on presumed criminality.

MARTIN: But let's talk about that for a minute. When the NAACP was founded in 1909, as we've been talking about, blacks really had no civil rights to speak about. I mean, blacks were routinely lynched, that was one of the core issues, just getting some attention to the lynching problem. That second-class status was codified by law and custom. Now as you've pointed out, there's the possibility of an African-American man leading the nation. Many people would argue that a group like this is no longer relevant. How, in your opinion, is it?

Mr. JEALOUS: Well, you know, a couple of things. You want - I tell people, yes we made this moment. What we've done to challenge racism, to challenge racial hatred has a lot to do with why a man who looks like Barack Obama can run for president and do as well as he's doing. You know, and what we've done, for that matter, to challenge gender discrimination, you know, has a lot to do with what Ms. Clinton as well as she is. But at the same time we were made for this moment. You know, there was always a twoness. There was always a sort of a schizophrenic nature, you know, people like you and I who are successful in this culture can, you know, walk around with people lauding us and yet to have this tension in our stomach. You know, you talk to blacks who are successful and have money about why they send their kids to public schools, I'm sorry, to private schools, and it's often not because there's not a good public school in their neighborhood, but because they're not sure if they can control how their child will be treated there, you know? And so there's a - you know, we know, we as black people know that there's a need for the NAACP. The reality is that we have to make that case more strongly to the public and that goes back to the fact, you know, there's a stat people throw out. They say, you know, it's much easier for a white construction worker to get a job than a black - I'm sorry, excuse me - a white construction worker to get a loan than a black professional. Well, you know, we've been saying that for almost 15 years because that comes out of studies that were funded in '92 and '93, and so an entire generation has come of age, and the case hasn't been made to them and we need to really make that case forcefully. We need to quite frankly invest in massive match-pair studies, really define the types of discrimination that people are experiencing and publicize it. I mean I, you know, you look at who they hired. They hired a guy who started out as a campaigner, you know, trying to save a women's hospital up here in Northern Manhattan on 114th Street, South Harlem, and then went and got his master's in comparative social research, and then finally used all of that, you know, as a communications professional. And so I mean, you know, we need to research and document. We need to tell that story to the world, and at the same time, you know, we need to do what we do very well which is just both the old school kind of knock on doors, turn people out, and the new school, you know, land in people's hotmail or gmail box and, you know, ask them to click here and go online and help us convince people to do the right thing.

MARTIN: If you're just joining us, you're listening to Tell Me More from NPR News, and I'm speaking with the NAACP's new president-elect, Benjamin Todd Jealous.

You know, I had occasion last week to speak with John Payton, he is the new leader of the NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund. That's now a separate organization considered kind of the nation's civil rights law firm.

He talked about a lot of the same things you've talked about. He talked about underperforming schools being a primary concern. He talked about kind of the very high incarceration rate in this country. One of the things we talked about is that a lot of these institutions are now dominated by African-Americans, they are led by African-Americans or other minorities. The criminal justice system in many cities is in fact led by and dominated by minorities. The schools in many communities are led by minorities. Does that change the mission? If many of these institutions which are failing communities of color, are in fact led by people of color?

Mr. JEALOUS: Change the mission of the association? No. I mean, our commitment is to that child. You know our commitment is to that job seeker. Our commitment is to that guy who is currently locked up and being abused, or that woman who has been locked up and is trying to you know, reunite with her children who have been placed in foster care and find a job.

And the reality is that if you put people of color in charge and you don't give them the resources - you know, that's the primary problem both with schools and with prisons. California justice system is, I think there are about 200 percent in the prisons in California what they're supposed to be. The staff works typically 20 to 30 hours of a mandatory time beyond their 40 hours, so they're working 60, 70 hours per week.

You know, and the problem isn't them. The problem is that they don't have the resources that they need to do a good job. The problem is that there are too many people in that prison in the first place. Too many people in the prison system, we're just loading it full of people, who either need drug rehab, or frankly need to just be trusted because they didn't do a whole lot in the first place.

MARTIN: But doesn't that imply, why aren't the legislators and executives who are in many cases also people of color make that case and change the policy.

Mr. JEALOUS: Well you know we...

MARTIN: The outsiders are now the insiders.

Mr. JEALOUS: The outsiders are the insiders, they do need to make the case. They also need help, you know, they, if your job is to actually make law, you need a whole lot of help to get the proper research, you know, get the best model legislation and have the pressure applied to your colleagues. And quite frankly, have people who are willing.

You know, one of the big victories when I was with Amnesty - and the association was really at the forefront of this, we just helped from behind the scenes - was getting a bill called the Prison Rape Elimination Act passed. Now the only reason that we got that passed because on the one side, you know, you had all the traditional civil rights and human rights groups. And on the other side, we had the Christian right and right-wing groups who really believed in the notion of redemption. And who, because you know, in some cases they had folks there who had, for instance, gone to prison during the savings and loan scandal. Folks who really understood just how terrifying prison rape was, you know.

And so I have this photo in my office, it always confuses people. It shows you know, President Bush signing a bill and, but you look behind him, you have John Ashcroft smiling, you have Ted Kennedy smiling. You know, you have Orin Hatch smiling, you have Bobby Scott smiling.

You know that's our job, you know, our job is to make the case, to apply the pressure, but to also be courageous enough, not just reach out. I mean you know, not just reach out to people who we typically don't find ourselves in the room with very often, and at the same time be a diligent in reaching out to our friends and just making sure that's there is maximum pressure to do the right thing.

MARTIN: We need to pause here for just a moment, but I assume you can spend a couple of more minutes with us?

Mr. JEALOUS: Yes, yes.

MARTIN: When we come back.

Mr. JEALOUS: You're my favorite host.

MARTIN: Well, thank you, I'm your only host so far. We're going to continue our conversation with Ben Jealous, the newly elected president of the NAAPC, and we will have our weekly visit with the Mocha Moms as they tell us how they're trying to go green. Stay with us.

I'm Michel Martin, and this is Tell Me More from NPR News.

We're going to continue our conversation with Benjamin Todd Jealous. He is the newly elected president on the NAACP. His appointment was announced on Saturday. Thanks for staying with us.

Mr. JEALOUS: Yes, yes.

MARTIN: There were reports that the board was split over your appointment. News reports say the vote was 34 to 21, which is a, you know, which is a significant division if those reports are true. Now your predecessor, Bruce Gordon, left after 19 months in part...

Mr. JEALOUS: Sure.

MARTIN: Because he felt that there was a disagreement with the board about the mission. He wanted to take the organization in more of a direct service direction, sort of teaching people about their rights. Teaching people how to deal with mortgage companies and so forth. And others felt that advocacy was still the way to go. Do you think that the vote is still an indication that the board is still split about the mission of the organization? And how are you going to overcome that?

Mr. JEALOUS: Well you know, I mean these are my people, this is you know, I didn't come in from having worked my entire life outside the civil rights movement. I've chosen to spend my entire life in this movement, and this also isn't the first civil rights institution that I've run. You know, the black press was found in 1909 as well. And you know, so I really feel comfortable, frankly as a journalist, as a community organizer. Sort of relish good, healthy debate, and I also have faith that this mighty, great, 100-year-old, you know, 300,000-member-strong group is able to have a debate, come to a conclusion, select a direction, and then all line up and push, you know, with our shoulders against the wheel. So, I feel good about it, and I'm excited and yeah, I'm just ready to move forward.

MARTIN: Your profile is a bit different from past leaders in a number of respects - I mean, the fact that you are not a minister or a politician. One other interesting thing about you is that you are also biracial, as is Barak Obama, as is the lieutenant Governor of Maryland, as is the mayor of Washington.

Mr. JEALOUS: Can I, can I make a small correction there?

MARTIN: Of course.

Mr. JEALOUS: I'm black. You know, the only thing that we have, you know, the only definition that's out there on the books, if you will, are state laws, and my family is from Virginia. When I was born it said, the law said that you had to be 132nd, excuse me, if you were at least 132nd of African descent, you were black, end of story. White was an exclusive definition, black was an inclusive definition. I do have biracial parentage but quite frankly...

MARTIN: You don't consider yourself biracial.

Mr. JEALOUS: No, I mean, I don't understand it, I mean the... my grandmother's much fairer than I am, has straight hair. You know, the reality is that, you know, our family, like most families were sort of created in the Jeffersonian model. You know, we were raped on Virginia plantations, and you know, all of those kids were black.

MARTIN: But your parents weren't? I mean, that's not your parents.

Mr. JEALOUS: Yeah, right but what I'm saying is that...

MARTIN: What I'm curious about though is that, is there something, is there an important cultural moment here, or not?

Mr. JEALOUS: No, I mean you know, yeah it is significant, I think the most significant thing about my parents is that you know, a year after their marriage was illegal, it was made legal because of the work of the NAACP and the Legal Defense Fund.

You know, my parents - when they were married in Washington, D.C., in 1966, they had to be married there because they couldn't get married where they lived in Baltimore. When they drove back for the party in Baltimore, people pulled off the side of the road, took off their hat because they thought it was a funeral procession passing, because there was a Cadillac in front of a bunch of cars with their lights on.

So, you know, and my father was disowned not by his two brothers or his mom, but by the entire rest of his family. And his family was in Salem in 1636, and they're a big family. And they disowned him, not because they didn't believe that he loved my mom. You know, his great uncle, I mean my great uncle drove out, sat down with them, said we believe that you love this woman, but you know I'm a man, I know a man can love many women, and you need to fall out of love quick or you're going to be out of this family.

So, you know, the notion biracial I just think is blunt and crude and ahistorical, and to say biracial parentage, of course. I completely, you know, I've done more research on my father's history, I think, on all the white cousins that I'm in touch with, and the ones who didn't disown us were much in touch with, I love very much, if you know somebody named Jealous it's probably one of them.

(Soundbite of laughter)

MARTIN: Well, that's an interesting conversation, I'm afraid we don't have time to have it all here, but thank you for raising that, for clarifying that in a way that makes you comfortable. It's an interesting thing to talk about, so hopefully we'll talk more about that as well as other aspects of your mission with the NAACP. Congratulations again.

Mr. JEALOUS: Thank you, please have me back sometime.

MARTIN: Ben Jealous is the new president-elect of the NAACP. He was kind enough to join us from our bureau in New York. Thanks again.

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