Sen. Obama Leaves Church, Questions Remain

Copyright © 2009 National Public Radio®. For personal, noncommercial use only. See Terms of Use. For other uses, prior permission required.

MICHEL MARTIN, host:

I'm Michel Martin, and this is Tell Me More from NPR News. In a moment, I have a closing thought, but first it's time for our Faith Matters conversation. As we've been discussing, it's been a week of triumph for Senator Barack Obama. He's cleared the first hurdle in a bid to become this country's president. But it was not without some emotional low points. A little over a week ago, he and his wife Michelle cut ties with Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, the church where they were married and their children blessed. The break came after a series of controversial sermons and statements by Obama's former pastor at Trinity, the Reverend Jeremiah Wright. And more recently an inflammatory sermon by a guest speaker, Father Michael Pfleger, was posted to YouTube. He was perceived as mocking Senator Clinton in his sermon.

This has raised some important questions for us, such as should sermons, especially those delivered to audiences of powerful people, be treated as private conversations between pastors and their parishioners? Or should they be scrutinized like political speeches? Should public figures be judged on the places where they worship? We're going to explore those issues now with Bishop Harry Jackson, Jr. He's senior pastor of The Hope Christian Church in the Washington, DC area. The Reverend Renita Weems, author of many books and founder of somethingwithin.com, it's a blog for women of faith. Also with us is Michael Sean Winters, he writes a daily political blog for the religious journal America Magazine, and he's written extensively about the Catholic Church, it's political relationships. He has a book coming out on the subject. Welcome everybody. Thank you so much for coming.

Bishop HARRY JACKSON (Senior Pastor, Hope Christian Church): Thank you.

Reverend RENITA WEEMS (Author, Rounder of somethingwithin.com): Thank you.

Mr. MICHAEL SEAN WINTERS (Writer. America Magazine): Thanks for having us.

MARTIN: Reverend Weems, when we last spoke with you and Bishop Jackson when the whole Jeremiah Wright issue first surfaced. You kind of have a foot in a number of worlds. You have been a supporter of Senator Hillary Clinton, you also know Reverend Jeremiah Wright and have worshiped with him. This whole issue of where a political leader worships and the kind of things that are discussed in that house of worship, do you think that's a fair issue to talk about?

Rev. WEEMS: Yes. I think it is a fair issue to talk about. Preaching or sermons are not like campaign stump speeches. So it's not like, have-sermon-will-travel, meaning what worked one Sunday will work somewhere else. Pastors do craft their message according to their membership or the people they anticipate to be there.

MARTIN: Bishop Jackson, what about you?

BISHOP JACKSON: Well I think it's fair, absolutely. But there is a point where intellectual property that you sell in the form of books, CDs, and all of that kind of thing, kind of set you up that you're trying to promote your message around the world, therefore it should be even more scrutinized. And although we hate to be taken out of context, that can never be recaptured once someone who doesn't understand your faith context tries to read their paradigms into your message. It gets a little sticky.

MARTIN: But what about that? I mean in this digital era, should religious leaders have a different expectation about who the ultimate audience is. As Reverend Weems was saying that most pastors are not preaching to the world, they're preaching to their congregations. But, in this era, you know, people videotape these sermons, they pass them around in their own congregation. There's no- you can't tell people, well, your eyes only- doesn't exist. So, should religious leaders, do you think, have a different understanding of who the audience is?

Bishop JACKSON: We are living in a day that things are challenged. We have to understand that our words, just like the words of a politician, are going to be taken out of context or taken and used by someone who may have something against us, that you think through how your words if taken out that place of birthing will be used as it relates to that congregation.

MARTIN: Michael, the Catholic Church is a worldwide church, of course. And has been very aggressive about exploiting kind of modern communication tools to kind of spread its message locally and nationally. How do Catholic leaders address this question? Do they assume that their messages are meant for a worldwide audience?

Mr. WINTERS: A pastor is not called just to preach to their congregation, but to evangelize and to reach out to people beyond the walls of the church and bring more people in. So, obviously YouTube has changed the nature of that and the ability to take things out of context. That said, I think you really have to try very hard to have a private conversation. One of the prices that we pay is the churches, political parties, are no longer allowed an internal conversation. And that's a real cost because sometimes if you have to have the conversation in the full glare of the media and watch all of your words, you do posture, you politick and you are not invited to the kind of candor that these issues really, really need.

MARTIN: I'm interested in this question because, Reverend Weems, you are one of the people who talked to us about that kind of relationship, the historical relationship between the church and the African American community. The church being a place of sanctuary as well as a place where prophetic truth and the challenge to the larger society can be openly expressed. Do you worry that your ability to speak the truth as you see it might be compromised in an era when whatever you say is going to be - could, you know ricochet around the world in a matter of minutes?

Rev. WEEMS: Oh, absolutely. It is the price you pay for that kind of preaching. I mean, there is a kind of preaching I would imagine, it's been years since I've been around that kind of preaching, but there is a kind of preaching that one can engage in that I'll assume is relatively safe and that is to pretty much stick with the story and not veer too much from the story and not do very much commentary, if you will. And that - there's usually in that area called commentary, when we sort of talk about what we see is going on in the story and how it applies to the larger world, and even more so not just the larger world in terms of the individual members, but also a commentary upon our culture. And I think that Trinity Church and other churches, African American churches especially, are churches that are known for that. And not only just known for that, but attract members because of its history of doing that. I mean, so, it's preaching and ministry that go hand in hand.

MARTIN: People go to church for all kinds of reasons or worship...

Rev. WEEMS: And leave for all kinds of reasons, yes.

MARTIN: To be, in some ways, comforted, perhaps to be challenged, and for some people perhaps that comfort takes on a more edgy tone than other people are comfortable with. I guess I'm wondering, what do you think the effect of this public conversation is going to have on people's willingness to hear those kinds of messages? Do you think it's going to be like a sorting-out process where people think, well, you know, if I have political ambitions, I'd better stick to a safer environment or...

Rev. WEEMS: From the preacher's point of view, I think preachers will always be, as one of my professors once said, preaching with a bad conscience, meaning always looking over your shoulder from now on. I think that that is a given. I also think that members will also be more selective perhaps about where they want to attend churches and knowing that the cost of being at certain kinds of churches and taking certain kinds of risks.

MARTIN: If you're just joining us, you're listening to Tell Me More from NPR News, and we're talking about the private mission and public impact of sermons in this digital age. We're also talking about the very personal decision of worshiping and whether public officials should be held to account for where they worship. Bishop Jackson, what do you think of Senator Obama and his wife's decision to leave Trinity Church?

Bishop JACKSON: I think it was an appropriate decision on a personal basis for them because it interferes potentially with a campaign. That will always be an issue, what happened there. I think Father Pfleger's comments were probably meant to be something of a defense for his friend Jeremiah Wright and he'll have to keep addressing it. So, I think they had no choice but to withdraw. As a pastor, I would say I wish that this was the last option that people will take because it's better if we live out our differences in community. But I think he'll never ever be able to erase those sermons, but I think they'll fade in the background by the time November comes.

MARTIN: Michael, I wanted to ask you, is this an issue in the Catholic Church? You write a lot about how the Catholic Church is addressing issues around homosexuality and the gay and lesbian community, among other things that you write about. You hear - in fact this is a story in the news right now, of Catholic public figures being denied communion because of their sort of political affiliations. But have you ever heard of Catholic public officials being pressured to leave the church because of the church's stance on issues around gays and lesbians or women priests, for example?

Mr. WINTERS: Surely, you have a situation in Kansas now where Governor Sebelius, who is being mentioned as a vice presidential choice for Senator Obama, was reprimanded by her bishop and told not to present herself for a communion because of her vetoing of an abortion bill. You know, there's nothing private about Christianity. I think the problem that you have for the church is that there are many publics at one time and that's where Senator Obama got caught in the cross there. I think the decision to leave the church is a little different from Protestants by definition from Catholics because that's how Protestantism began, was by a leaving of the church, so it's a different thing. In my experience, I always say to Catholics who say, oh, I'm alienated from the church, I just say, well, you are the church. You're baptized, so you're alienated from yourself. Get back in there and fight.

MARTIN: I see your point and I do understand about the historical roots of the leaving versus going. But it does strike me as one has heard about Catholic politicians being called out for various political stances, but I've never heard of a Catholic politician being pressured by the public to say, being indicted for his or her commitment to the Catholic Church.

Mr. WINTERS: You have this curious thing, you know, where John Kennedy clearly, in 1960, ran as a Catholic by saying, the church will have nothing to do with me. And then many years later, John Kerry is criticized for not being Catholic enough, almost a reverse situation for both of them.

MARTIN: But there weren't people who said, if you leave, I'll vote for you.

Mr. WINTERS: In that day and age, the idea of a Catholic leaving would simply not have - I don't think it came up the entire time. But politicians have got to get away from the idea that they don't have to wrestle with this. This is what we do if we take our faith seriously and you should certainly expect the same with our politicians.

MARTIN: Reverend Weems, what do you think?

Rev. WEEMS: Well, in this case, this is one of those leavings like any divorce that's negotiated in the public sphere. I think that's what makes this so painful. But I do think that one other thing that needs to be pointed out here, we're talking about leaving - there is leaving a local congregation and then there's leaving the church, the denomination. So, what the Obamas did, I believe, is they left Trinity Church, a particular local congregation, and that I'm sure is hurting that particular church, and obviously it hurts the Obamas as well. So, I think that that's what I find the most painful, and my heart recoils here because as a minister, I know, I've been in plenty of incidents where people have left the church and it has been very painful, ugly, sometimes even public, but certainly never at the national level.

MARTIN: Bishop, a final thought from you. Is there anything about this whole episode around Senator Obama, Mrs. Obama and the church that will affect you- the way you relate to your congregation, the way you preach in the future? Is there anything that will resonate and will last for you as a result of all this?

Bishop JACKSON: Yes, it will. I think it's going to make me be more thoughtful of the long-term ramification of my words, and I'm going to stick much more closely to the Scriptures and their application versus things that can be mistaken or taken out of context, and I think that's a price we pay. But I'm excited that the church is having a moral voice more than ever before in this campaign. So, we thank Barack Obama for his openness about his faith and I think that there is an opportunity here for the church community to grow and the church leaders to grow as we are more open about what we believe and how we speak.

MARTIN: Reverend Weems, same question.

Rev. WEEMS: Yes, I find myself and I'm already in conversation with a number of people who are talking about these very same things and being much more thoughtful about the way we preach, what we preach about, and how we craft our messages. And I think also this has humbled preachers and ministers alike, in that it makes also much more open to listening to our audiences more. And I think that that is a very important correction at this point in the church relationship between parish and minister.

MARTIN: Michael, final - same question to you, but obviously you're not a member of the clergy, but do you think this will have lasting repercussions?

Mr. WINTERS: I think it's somewhat shocking to hear ministers say that they need to be more thoughtful. Of course, they should be thoughtful. They're breaking open the Word of God. And when I saw Jeremiah Wright's sermons, I was surprised that, not just that he was not cautious, but it was the showman quality, and I think this is what set him up for it. I mean, the further you go from the consequences, of the political consequences of your religious message, you are out there on that limb, and you shouldn't be surprised if somebody comes and saws it off.

MARTIN: Michael Sean Winters writes the daily political blog for the Jesuit Weekly America Magazine. He also has a forthcoming book about the Catholic Church and its relationship to the Democratic Party. He was kind enough to join us here in our studios in Washington. We were also joined by the Reverend Renita Weems. She's the founder of SomethingWithin.com, a blog for women of faith, as well as many, many books. She joined us from Nashville, Tennessee. And Bishop Harry Jackson, Jr. leads the Hope Christian Church in the Washington, D.C. area. He was kind enough to join us from member station WGBH in Boston. I thank you all so much for speaking with us.

Mr. WINTERS: Thank you.

Bishop JACKSON: Thank you, Michel.

Rev. WEEMS: Thank you.

Copyright ©2009 National Public Radio®. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to National Public Radio. This transcript is provided for personal, noncommercial use only, pursuant to our Terms of Use. Any other use requires NPR's prior permission. Visit our permissions page for further information.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by a contractor for NPR, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of NPR's programming is the audio.