Fact Combing The Presidential Debate
Presidential hopefuls John McCain and Barack Obama debated the issues Tuesday night in Nashville, Tenn. Did they stick to the facts? Steve Inskeep finds out from a team of reporters: NPR's Jim Zarroli, David Wessel of The Wall Street Journal and NPR's Julie Rovner, Richard Harris, Michele Kelemen and David Schaper.
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ARI SHAPIRO, host:
This is Morning Edition from NPR News. I'm Ari Shapiro.
STEVE INSKEEP, host:
And I'm Steve Inskeep. Renee Montagne is on an assignment in New Mexico. The presidential candidates made many claims in last night's debate, claims that we are covering throughout this morning. Now is the moment when we check some of their facts. We've done this after many nationally broadcast debates and speeches. A team of NPR correspondents was listening in to the debate last night and they join us this morning and we begin with the biggest subject of the evening - the economy. The candidates started with the financial crisis. Here's a statement by Senator McCain.
Senator JOHN MCCAIN (Republican, Arizona, Presidential Candidate): Fannie and Freddie were the catalysts, the match that started this forest fire. There were some of us - there were some of us that stood up against it. There were others who took a hike.
INSKEEP: OK. So Senator McCain says Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-founded institutions started this. Let's bring in NPR's Jim Zarroli who covers the economy and Jim, were Fannie and Freddie, the match that lit the fire?
JIM ZARROLI: You know, I think most people would say that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were one of the reasons the mortgage business spun out of control. But I think they were really only one factor. A bigger factor was the system in which mortgages were sold and then bundled together and converted into securities. These were very profitable for a long time. Wall Street loved them and that was one of the reasons why the mortgage business grew so much.
INSKEEP: OK. So having given a perhaps two simple explanations for the credit crisis, Senator McCain goes on to say that his opponent, Barack Obama, is quote the second highest recipient of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac money in history. Is he?
ZARROLIL: He is second biggest recipient after Connecticut Senator Christopher Dodd. Obama got $126,000 dollars from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. John McCain got approximately $21,500. John McCain also has another connection to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. His campaign manager, Rick Davis, his lobbying firm was paid up to $15,000 a month by Freddie Mac. Until recently, the McCain campaign says he himself was actually not involved with any of the lobbying efforts.
INSKEEP: Something McCain did not mention. Now, here's another claim that Senator Obama makes over and over about his opponent including last night.
Senator BARACK OBAMA (Democrat, Illinois, Presidential Candidate): Senator McCain and I have some fundamental disagreements on the economy, starting with Senator McCain's statement earlier that he thought the fundamentals of the economy were sound.
INSKEEP: Fundamentally sound. That is an accurate quote, but not a complete quote. We went back to tape of what John McCain actually said three weeks ago and found a more nuance statement about the economy.
Senator MCCAIN: There's been a tremendous turmoil in our financial markets in Wall Street. And people are frightened by these events. Our economy, I think, still, the fundamentals of our economy are strong, but these are very, very difficult times.
INSKEEP: The full quote there from John McCain several weeks ago. Let's move on now to another subject that was debated. Taxes. There was a lot of back and forth including this claim by Senator McCain.
Senator MCCAIN: Senator Obama's secret that you don't know is that his tax increases will increase taxes on 50 percent of small business revenue. Small businesses across America will have to cut jobs and will have their taxes increase and won't be able to hire because of Senator Obama's tax policies.
INSKEEP: David Wessel of the Wall Street Journal, a regular on this program, was listening in, and David, is Obama planning to raise taxes on 50 percent of small businesses?
DAVID WESSEL: Well, it depends what your definition of small is. Senator Obama is planning to raise taxes on the top income tax brackets and it is true that many small businesses pay taxes at ordinary income tax rates. But the majority of small businesses simply don't make enough money to be covered by Senator Obama's proposed tax increases.
INSKEEP: So most won't be affected?
WESSEL: Correct.
INSKEEP: That's David Wessel of the Wall Street Journal. Let's move on now to health policy, another subject in the debate. And a claim here made by Senator McCain.
Senator MCCAIN: If you're a small business person and you don't insure your employees, Senator Obama will fine you, will fine you. That's remarkable.
INSKEEP: That's remarkable but is it true? NPR's Julie Rovner, who covers health policy.
JULIE ROVNER: In a word, no. Senator Obama's plan would require most employers to either cover their employees with health insurance or else pay a fee to the government to help provide coverage. But the smallest employers would not be covered by this mandate. And the rest of the small employers would be given a rather generous tax credit to help them pay for that.
INSKEEP: So McCain's claim about Obama not so true. Let's look at an Obama claim about McCain. He says McCain is basically going to increase your taxes.
Senator OBAMA: He says that he's going to give you a $5,000 tax credit. What he doesn't tell you is that he is going to tax your employer-based health care benefits for the first time ever. So what one hand giveth, the other hand taketh away.
INSKEEP: Really?
ROVNER: Not really. It's a little bit of an exaggeration. For the vast majority of people, the tax credit that Senator McCain would offer would be larger, at least starting out than the taxes that they would owe on that employer provided tax benefits. Over time however Senator Obama may be right if that tax credit doesn't go up as fast as health care premiums go up then a lot of people could find themselves paying taxes on the value of their health benefits.
INSKEEP: Julie Rovner, let's move on to another subject now, energy. Senator Obama spoke of setting a goal to free the United States from dependence on Middle Eastern oil within 10 years. NPR's Richard Harris was listening. Is that possible, Richard?
RICHARD HARRIS: It's a noble goal, but it is not realistic. The Middle East gives us about 20 percent of our oil imports that's a pretty big chunk to replace. Drilling offshore will not get it to a certainly not in 10 years, probably not ever. Alternative fuels are a possibility on the horizon but they are on the distant horizon, maybe 20 -30 they could start really weighing in, but as a short-term goal it doesn't seem to be realistic.
INSKEEP: Thanks, Richard. And since we were talking about the Middle East and oil from the Middle East, let's stay with foreign policy because the candidates talked about Pakistan last night. Here's a statement by Senator McCain.
Senator MCCAIN: Senator Obama likes to talk loudly in fact he said he wants to announce that he is going to attack Pakistan.
INSKEEP: NPR's Michele Kelemen covers the state department for us and Michele, did Obama really say he quote "wants to announce" an attack?
MICHELE KELEMEN: Not exactly. I mean, last night he was basically in line with what he's been saying. He said that if we know where Osama bin Laden is, we know he's in Pakistan, Pakistan won't or is unwilling to act - we will. McCain's line of attack is that, you know, Obama shouldn't be talking about any of this publicly, but no one's really talking about announcing an attack.
INSKEEP: Is McCain talking publicly about attacking Pakistan if Osama bin Laden were found there?
KELEMEN: Oh, in fact he has essentially said the same exact thing on the campaign trail. And last night he wouldn't answer what the question was which was whether or not he would respect Pakistan sovereignty. Also neither candidate address the fact that President Bush's already authorized these sorts of actions.
INSKEEP: We're checking the facts of the presidential candidates in last nights debate and we have one more fact to go into, it's one that McCain raised early in the debate. He criticized Senator Obama for voting for billions in pork barrel spending.
Senator MCCAIN: Including by the way three million dollars for an overhead projector at a Planetarium in Chicago, Illinois.
INSKEEP: We've gone to NPR's David Schaper who covers Chicago, Illinois. David, OK, did Obama actually asked for three million dollars for an overhead projector?
DAVID SCHAPER: Well, he did make the request along with the bipartisan membership of the Illinois Congressional delegation, but this is not your typical third grade teacher's overhead projector in the classroom. What we're talking about here is the projector for the sky theater at the Adler Planetarium. And this is what the planetarium calls an experience of exploration of the wonders of the clear night sky projector on the dome of the historic planetarium theater. It's one if not the most popular attraction or teaching tool at the Adler Planetarium.
INSKEEP: OK, so did the planetarium get the overhead projector?
SCHAPER: Nope. The earmark request has not yet been funded.
INSKEEP: That's NPR's David Schaper helping us to explore the wonders of checking the candidate's facts from last night's presidential debate. We also heard this morning from NPR's Michele Kelemen, Richard Harris, Julie Rovner, and Jim Zarolli, and our regular guest David Wessel of the Wall Street Journal. You can download last night's debate and NPR's analysis, and you can also read more fact checking from our reporters by going to npr.org.
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Ferreting Out Fibs In The Second Debate
In Focus
Despite the controlled environment and close scrutiny of Tuesday's presidential debate, Sens. Barack Obama and John McCain still made a handful of false assertions and erroneous statements.
With the help of NPR reporters, Factcheck.org and The Associated Press, we ferreted out the falsehoods and found the facts in the friction.
It's The Economy
The candidates pretty much stuck to the facts in the debate's early going. Obama did, as McCain asserted, receive the second-highest amount of campaign contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Between 1989 and 2008, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, Obama took in $126,349 — second only to Sen. Christopher Dodd (D-CT). McCain's campaigns received $21,550.
Obama said he wrote a letter to Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson warning them about the dangers of the subprime mortgage market. He did that in March 2007.
At one point, McCain said that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac lit the fire of the mortgage crisis. NPR business reporter Jim Zarroli pointed out that most observers would say that the two government-sponsored enterprises played a part in the mortgage meltdown, but that there was much more to it. Securitization of mortgages played a big part because it meant mortgage servicers had no real incentive to impose strict credit standards on borrowers. And there were other reasons, such as overly aggressive mortgage brokers.
The current financial earthquake, Obama said, is the result of the failed economic policies of the past eight years. The free-market policies promulgated by President George W. Bush and underscored by McCain, Obama said, "essentially said that we should strip away regulations, consumer protections, let the market run wild, and prosperity would rain down on all of us. It hasn't worked out that way. And so now we've got to take some decisive action."
The Associated Press reported that while McCain has pushed for less regulation, he also supported a shorter leash for, and greater accountability on behalf of, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac some two years before the financial crisis began.
Other Domestic Matters
During the debate, McCain said that he'd give $5,000 to every American as a refundable tax credit on health insurance. David Welna, who covers Congress for NPR, said that under McCain's plan, it's actually $2,500 per person or $5,000 per household. "Small point," Welna said, "but he doesn't seem to remember this key distinction."
The fact that a Republican and a Democrat — President Ronald Reagan and House Speaker Thomas P. "Tip" O'Neill — sat down to strike a deal on Social Security in 1983 is a model for what to do now to save the foundering national retirement fund, McCain said. The problem with that illustration, according to Welna, is that Reagan and O'Neill actually agreed to raise payroll taxes to cover the Social Security gap and McCain says on his campaign Web site that he will not raise taxes to fix Social Security.
When McCain asserted that Obama will fine small businesses that don't insure their workers, NPR health policy correspondent Julie Rovner pointed out that under Obama's plan, the smallest businesses are exempt. On the other hand, Obama said that McCain voted against the State Children's Health Insurance Program, or SCHIP. McCain said he did so because he didn't want to finance the program by raising the tobacco tax.
On the tax issue, McCain claimed, as he has before, that Obama voted for tax increases 94 times. The count is inflated, The Associated Press reported, and includes repetitive votes and some votes that reduced taxes for the middle class while increasing them for rich people. Factcheck.org pointed out that 23 of the votes would not have raised taxes at all; seven would have reduced taxes for a lot of people and 11 would have raised taxes only on those who earn more than $1 million a year.
Foreign Affairs
At times, the truth became elastic. For instance, McCain said that one solution to the country's financial crisis is to "stop sending $700 billion a year to countries that don't like us."
The Associated Press reported that McCain was referring to the U.S. purchase of oil from hostile countries and that the $700 billion figure is misleading. One-third of the total that the U.S. spends on oil imports — a total much less than the inflated figure — goes to countries that are not hostile to the U.S., such as Britain, Canada and Mexico.
Referring to the war in Iraq, Obama said, "We're spending $10 billion dollars a month in Iraq, at a time when the Iraqis have a $79 billion surplus — $79 billion." Factcheck.org noted that Iraqis have $29 billion in the bank at present and that number could double by the end of the year.
Offshore oil drilling, McCain said, will drive down the price of oil. Actually, NPR science correspondent Richard Harris reported, the drilling would take many years to develop and would ultimately add less than 2 percent to the global oil supply and have minimal effect on oil prices.
More Fact-Checking
For more details on the candidates' claims on economic regulation, offshore drilling, oil dependence, tax cuts and health insurance, check out NPR's political blog: Vox Politics.
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