Goodall Reflects On A Lifetime Of Chimp Research

Jane Goodall with a chimp in Budapest. i i

British primatologist Jane Goodall with a young chimpanzee at the Budapest zoo. Attila Kisbenedek/AFP/Getty Images hide caption

itoggle caption Attila Kisbenedek/AFP/Getty Images
Jane Goodall with a chimp in Budapest.

British primatologist Jane Goodall with a young chimpanzee at the Budapest zoo.

Attila Kisbenedek/AFP/Getty Images

More than 45 years ago, primatologist Jane Goodall observed wild chimpanzees making and using tools — a finding that dramatically changed the field of primate research. Goodall discusses her career and what lies ahead in the field of evolutionary science.

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IRA FLATOW, host:

You're listening to Talk of the Nation Science Friday, I'm Ira Flatow. There's a short list of icons in science, people who are both excellent researchers, also public symbols of what science is and does, and to anyone who's a fan of magazines like, perhaps, National Geographic, Jane Goodall is one of those icons. From her groundbreaking work with chimpanzees in the Gombe in the 1960s, to her tireless advocacy for the environment today, she has earned her place in the Science Hall of Fame. And she's back with us today.

So without further ado, I formally introduce my guest. Jane Goodall is a primatologist and an environmental advocate. She's co-winner of the 2008 Leakey Prize, and is the founder of the Jane Goodall Institute based in Arlington, Virginia. And she joins us today from CBC studios in Toronto. Welcome back to the program.

Ms. JANE GOODALL (Primatologist; Environmental Advocate): Well, thank you. Thank you for inviting me.

FLATOW: It's been too long. The last time you were on here was 2002.

Ms. GOODALL: Goodness.

FLATOW: Yeah. Are you any more optimistic now about the prospects for the environment since then?

Ms. GOODALL: Well, I think I feel about the same. And, you know, we're at the cross roads, we have been for the last several years. And if we don't take action, us collectively, then maybe it's too late. But we haven't gotten to that point yet.

FLATOW: Your group, Roots and Shoots, is an outreach to young people. It's been going now - what, for 17 years?

Ms. GOODALL: Yes, since 1991. But it didn't really leave Tanzania till about '93. And so, you know, it's now in about 100 countries. It has programs from preschool through university. And even some senior citizens have formed groups, and it's in prison. So it's approximately 9,000 active groups.

FLATOW: Wow. And so some of these kids are now grown up, they have - they've gone out now on their own, and making their own marks as adults.

Ms. GOODALL: Absolutely. And what I love is that one of the young Tanzanians who was with us right at the very beginning, he left, he got a degree in the U.S., he got a job because he got a wife and family. But now that we have raised more money, we can offer people employment. He's back being the Tanzanian national director of the program. And it's just - it's really wonderful to see this person who has never lost that commitment that he got as a child.

FLATOW: That's terrific. 1-800-989-8255, if you'd like to speak with Jane Goodall. There are still researchers out there in the Gombe observing the chimps. What kinds of things are they learning? We've spoken - I've seen you recently out in San Francisco, seems like they're still learning all kinds of fascinating things about how the chimps behave.

Ms. GOODALL: Well, they really are. And of course, a lot of what they're learning is the result of the long-term studies that began in 1960, coming up to 50 years. Chimpanzees can live to be more than 60, so it does take a long time. But one of the more recent technologies we've been able to incorporate is DNA testing of fecal samples which will tell us who the fathers are. We've never known before. So this opens up a whole new area. You know, is there possibly any special relationship between a father and his biological child? It's hard to see how that could be. But maybe there is, we don't know.

FLATOW: I have a question here for you from Second Life and it's - is it possible to balance activism and advocacy with scientific research without risking the objectivity of the researcher or your objectivism as he puts it?

Ms. GOODALL: Well, I have - you know, we have serious concerns about objectivity in science. Yes, we have to be objective. But we should not be objective at the expense of being a human. We should be able to have compassion and empathy at the same time, as we can stand to stand back and be objective about what's going on. But without that, if you don't allow yourself to feel some empathy or some compassion, then science can become, I think, a very cold, hard and potentially dangerous profession.

FLATOW: You were just awarded the Leakey Prize for your work in evolutionary science. I don't think most people have heard, at least heard of what that means. Can you give us an idea what that whole field is about?

Ms. GOODALL: Exactly the reason I got - I was able to get into this field at the beginning, because my mentor, the late Lewis Leakey, he spent his life searching for the fossilized remains of early humans. And he felt way ahead of his time that if we understood the behavior of our closest relatives in the natural state - that's chimpanzees and then gorillas, orangutans, and (unintelligible) that this might help him to have a better feeling for how early humans might have behaved. Because the argument is if you find behavior that's similar or the same in chimpanzees today and humans today, the modern human, modern chimp, then possibly that behavior was present in a common ancestor, ape-like, human-like about six million years ago. And that therefore we may have brought that characteristic or those characteristics with us throughout a long evolutionary journey. And then, he liked to, you know - feel, 'yes, that will give me a better handle on how the Stone Age people behaved.'

FLATOW: Do you still feel Lewis Leakey around with you? Do you still...

Ms. GOODALL: Do I still what?

FLATOW: Is he still present for you - Lewis Leakey?

Ms. GOODALL: Oh, sometimes he is. He was such a larger than life character. And, you know, he was such an amazing person.

FLATOW: He was a seminal figure in your life.

Ms. GOODALL: Oh, absolutely. I mean, goodness. When he offered me this opportunity, I had no degree of any kind. I was straight out from England. And all he knew about me was that one, I've certainly read a lot about animals, I could answer lots of his questions. And two, when he let me go with himself, his wife, and one young English girl, and a few Kenyans to (unintelligible) Gorge, now a very famous site of many human fossil discoveries. But in those days, there was nothing there, it was just animals, no humans are being found. And I think he was sort of watching how I behaved out on the plains and what I did when a young male lion followed for a good many yards. And that's when he decided to offer this opportunity to me.

FLATOW: Over these past 40 years, has your idea or your own definition of what intelligence means changed as you watched the apes, the primates, and even (unintelligible).

Ms. GOODALL: Well, it's very, very clear. When I began in 1960, I was told when I finally got to Cambridge University that only humans had minds and that animals, other than humans animals, were incapable of anything like thinking. That was the accepted attitude of the European ethologists, people who study animal behavior. And, of course, it's so obvious when you see these intelligent creatures out in the wild that they are thinking, that they definitely are capable of rational thought, and that's been substantiated again and again with experiments in the laboratory. So I think my feeling is probably about the same, but I understand it better. But the majority of animal behavior scientists, their attitude has changed.

FLATOW: What kinds of things have you seen for example? One or two things that changed, that would change someone who goes out in the field and sees their behavior.

Ms. GOODALL: Well, I think if you have the opportunity to watch the young ones so closely observing the behavior of others and then imitating what they've seen and practicing it, tool-using, and it's fascinating to see a young one invent something new, doing something different and how all the other young ones all watch that and sometimes imitate, which is how new cultural traditions are introduced into a group, and something which is very, very simple.

But imagine a chimpanzee sleeping, stretched on the ground by himself, sits up, looks around, scratches in a contemplative way, wanders over to a big tuft of grass there, very carefully selects two, three, or even four blades, tucks them into that little pocket between chin and shoulder, and wanders off, maybe several hundred yards to a termite heap that's completely out of site, and there he inspects the heap, and if it's a productive one, he'll use the tools that he picked. Well, you know, if you don't accept that this is some kind of planning ahead in thought, how can you explain that?

FLATOW: Very interesting. 1-800-989-8255. Let's take some calls. Let's go to Jessica in Boise. Hi, Jessica.

JESSICA (Caller): Hi there. Thanks so much for taking my call, and it's so nice to be able to talk to you, Mrs. Goodall.

FLATOW: Go ahead.

Ms. GOODALL: Good talking to you.

FLATOW: Go ahead, Jessica.

JESSICA: All right. I was actually just recently reading online about some cases of infanticide and cannibalism in chimpanzees. And specifically some case that you are able to observe where there was a group of females that were stealing the babies from other females and actually eating them. And I had two questions.

First, do you have any idea why such behavior has been occurring? And number two, I did read that - in one particular instance you were able to save one of the infants. And how did that work as far as your objectivity, I thought that researchers generally were just supposed to observe and not interfere, and I'll take my comments off the air.

FLATOW: Thank you, Jessica. Good questions.

Ms. GOODALL: OK. Well, first off, we have no idea it was one mother and her adult daughter who actually took the babies of other females. The most common infanticide is when a group of males is patrolling its territory, and if they see a stranger, if it's a female with an infant or of course if it's a male, they may give a chase. It's almost like hunting, and if they catch a female with an infant, they will attack her very, very severely, leave her probably to die of wounds, take the infant and sometimes kill and eat it.

Usually they just kill it. But the - female and her daughter was different because they were attacking females in their own group. Not really to hurt the mother, but simply to take the baby and eat it. And they only did this when it was a brand new baby, as though the smell was different, and maybe the baby was thought of as a stranger or because there was blood - smell of blood from the placenta in the birth process. So, we see - saw it in one other mother-infant pair, but never succeeded and I already talked on this show about objectivity. And for me, these chimpanzees, you know, they're just like people in a way and we've always helped the chimpanzees if they're sick.

You hear people saying, you must let nature take its course, but we have interfered so profoundly, so hugely and so monstrously with nature that in most places it's not possible, like Gombe. Gombe, a 30 square miles, once part of an interrupted forest, now a tiny little island surrounded completely by bare cultivated fields. And if we get fewer chimps than we have today, it's gone from about 150 to 100. Then you know that's going to be the end. So each one is precious from a genetic point of view.

FLATOW: Mm hmm. We have a question here also from "Second Life About You," about your winning of the Leakey Prize and it asks, and this is a very good question. Who was your co-recipient?

Ms. GOODALL: I knew you were going to ask that an I...

FLATOW: You know, not many people know about the very famous Japanese scientist, Toshisada Nishida. Who is he? And why is he so famous, at least in Japan and other parts of the world?

Ms. GOODALL: He was involved with the other longest term research. Gombe was the first, starting in 1960 and their research at Mahali began in 1966. And Toshisada Nishida wasn't the one who started it, but he was responsible for running it and carrying on the research and finding the funding for it from many, many years until he retired from that about two years ago. So I've known Toshi for years.

FLATOW: Mm hmm. We're talking with Jane Goodall this hour in Talk of the Nation, Science Friday from NPR News. Did the Japanese have a different way of studying in the wild than yours or basically mirroring yours?

Ms. GOODALL: It was pretty much the same. I mean, I think that in some ways fascinatingly, the Japanese started completely nonobjective and the ethology. And of course in Europe and then America it was very objective, but then as we learn more and more about these complex beings with that complex brains. England - the British...

FLATOW: Mm hmm.

Ms. GOODALL: Few of animal nature, softened and the Japanese, as they learn more and more about western ways of science, they hardened a little. So we ended up more or less exactly the same.

FLATOW: Mm hmm. Let's go to Sam in Michigan. Hi, Sam.

SAM (Caller): Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I have a quick question with regards to language being a very unique characteristic of the human race. Can you shed some light with regards as to why we are so different in that sense? Has there been any recent studies that sort of correlate the evolution of this unique quality that humans posses?

Ms. GOODALL: People have different theories really about the origins of language, and I'm not sure we'll ever know. But I think what's fascinating here is that I believe it's because we have for some reason or another, there must have been many evolutionary processes, I should think, which caused us to speak, but because of it - because we have the ability to teach about things that aren't present, to plan for the distant future, to discuss and that's so important, so you can involve the collective wisdom of a grouping in discussing an idea, that I think is what's lead to the explosive development of our intellect.

And so, although chimpanzees can do things intellectually we never thought they could, like some of the amazing stuff they do with computers and things. You know, it doesn't make sense to compare a chimp intellect with human intellect. So it's - you know the question is if we're the most intellectual creature that's ever walked on this planet, how come we're destroying it?

FLATOW: You said, that we're not learning from our past mistakes and we're not listening to science.

Ms. GOODALL: In many cases, we're not learning from our past mistakes and some science, I'm not sure we should listen to, but it's the past mistakes of history, we're not learning very well from those, we go blindly into warfare again, not seeming to think about the consequences. So, we're a strange mixture, and we have a dark side and we have a more noble side, and so do the chimpanzees.

FLATOW: What's science should not be listening to?

Ms. GOODALL: Well, it's nothing much. It's a matter of listening to, but you know I'm thinking of the kind of science that led to nuclear weapons for example, that sort of thing.

FLATOW: All right. We're going to take a short break and come back and talk about more with Jane Goodall, who was a winner of the 2008 Leakey Prize, also here to talk with us for the rest of the hour. Our number, 1-800-989-8255, if you'd like to talk with Jane also. We're twittering at the scifritter, and also in Second Life so there are lots of different ways you can reach this hour if you'd like to ask Dr. Goodall with questions. She's also talking about - she's talking about more than just the chimps, talking about world problems or warfare, all of the things like that that the she has very much taken up the cause for. So, we'll talk to her about some of those causes when we get back. Stay tuned. We'll be right back after this break.

(Soundbite of music)

FLATOW: You're listening to Talk of the Nation, Science Friday. I'm Ira Flatow. We're talking this hour with Jane Goodall who has many, many accomplishments to her name including her latest book, "Harvest for Hope: A Guide to Mindful Eating." She has also written many children's books. Her latest one and that is "Ricky and Henry" and "Ann Lee," a true story with Ellen Marks that's put up by Penguin Young Readers Association. You're also involved in environmentalism, especially - let's talk about something called the Forest Now Declaration. It's a very interesting concept in a declaration. Tell us what that is and what it's aimed at?

Ms. GOODALL: The Forest Now Declaration, if I'm remember it correctly because there are so many forest initiatives now that I seemed to be involved...

FLATOW: Well, let me - I'm sorry. Go ahead. I was going to drill down into another number. Go ahead.

Ms. GOODALL: All right, drill. Drill down.

(Soundbite of laughter)

FLATOW: I heard you're speaking. I heard you're speaking about allowing third-world countries and countries in Africa to be - to become more market savvy in the natural resources that they have, so they get fair market for what they have there.

Ms. GOODALL: Well, that's something we are deeply involved in because when I flew over the Gombe National Park about 17 years ago in a small plane, and saw the extensive deforestation outside the park, so that the soil was no longer fertile, so there were more people living there than the land could support, too poor to buy food. I realized that - you know, there was no way we could even try to save the chimps while the people were struggling to live, so that led to our Take Care Program which is basically community center conservation. And it's a holistic way of improving their lives in 32 villages around Gombe and it's - in ways selected by them not by us, so they say what they need. And it's to do with different farming methods, reclaiming in fertile land, reforestation, water and sanitation projects, working with groups of women providing microcredit opportunities, scholarships for girls...

FLATOW: Mm hmm.

Ms. GOODALL: HIV, AIDS, and family planning information, everything like that...

FLATOW: Yeah.

Ms. GOODALL: And then we discovered that high up in the hills was some really good coffee, so the farmers couldn't make money because there are no proper roads. So when I had the chance to talk to a group of coffee roasters in Seattle, I said we need some of you guys to come out...

(Soundbite of laughter)

Ms. GOODALL: To see if it's really good coffee, and if it is, help us market it. So Green Mountain Coffee Roaster was there within about five weeks or even less, and they found indeed the coffee was fantastic, they've been buying it. Other coffee roasters have come in to buy some as well, helping the farmers to develop ever better ways of harvesting and storing the coffee that they have. And because of this - this is why, this is so exciting - because of this, the locals are setting aside between 10 and 20 percent of their land for reforestation and forest protection in such a way that these forest patches will form a contiguous corridor of forest, so that the Gombe chimps who at the moment are isolated will once again be able to move out and interact with other revenant(ph) groups.

FLATOW: Now, some people might say you know, you're turning the forest into coffee plantations.

Ms. GOODALL: No, because there's no trees left...

FLATOW: Mm hmm.

Ms. GOODALL: And coffee is going where they've already cut down the trees. The good news is that shade coffee gets the best prices, so the trees are coming back and all of these forest patches are at the moment bad, but the regenerated part is such that that if they stop chopping at the - is from seemingly dead trees stumps, you get a 30 foot tree in five years.

FLATOW: Well, that's pretty fast growing.

Ms. GOODALL: And also, the village management plan, that each village is required to make, sets aside so much percentage of land for agriculture and it can't be changed. So what's changing is the efficiency of the way they're growing coffee and other crops. Same amount of land used, but a much more efficient way of using that land. And the village management plan also includes the number of people that must live in that area. So it's, you know, but without microcredit and family planning information, women empowerment, it means that they can actually plan a family and they couldn't before. We already see a trend of smaller family size, at the same time more infants living.

FLATOW: Yeah. Because we - lots of studies have shown that education is the best thing you can do.

Ms. GOODALL: Yeah. Women's education especially, all around the world. Yes.

FLATOW: Let's go to Elizabeth Ann in Birmingham, Alabama. Hi, Elizabeth Ann.

ELIZABETH ANN (Caller): Hi. I also once studied about the efforts of Orangutan Island in Borneo, to return orangutans to the wild.

Ms. GOODALL: Yes.

FLATOW: Are you familiar with that, Orangutan Island?

Ms. GOODALL: Yeah.

FLATOW: What do you think - she wants to know what you think about it.

Ms. GOODALL: Well, I think, you know, as long as one can return animals to the wild without disturbing the existing wild populations, that is the answer. I just wish we could do it with chimpanzees. We're looking for a place where maybe we could return them to the wild. But you got to find somewhere with no people, because they're used to people and they would probably harm people, same with orangutans. And no wild chimps because the wild chimps are territorially aggressive and would probably kill them. It's very hard to find places like that in Africa.

FLATOW: Thank you, Elizabeth.

ELIZABETH (Caller): Thank you.

FLATOW: Have a good weekend. What is the greatest threat to chimpanzees today?

Ms. GOODALL: It depends really which part of Africa they're in - because the underlying threat is us. It's a human population growth. And then on top of that, you got the habitat destruction just from people farming and so forth. You've got commercial hunting, the bush meat trade, which is very prevalent in Central Africa with the last significant populations of chimpanzees, gorillas, and the Nobos(ph) (unintelligible). And you have the logging companies - all foreign - which, even if they practiced selective logging are making roads deep into the heart of the forest - and this is opening up the forest for hunting.

And that's why the bush meat trade has taken off and it's involving lots of money, and it's the hunters shooting everything from elephants to birds and bats, smoking the meat and trucking it into the towns. So you know, we're working there, we're working with the Congo (unintelligible) in forest partnership. Partners being other NGOs, government USAID and such like, and our job is to make partnerships with the local people.

FLATOW: Question from Second Life from Paksasuses(ph). Does Jane have any advice for young people who want to pursue a career in biological science? What are some of the most crucial spaces that need to be filled by the next generation?

Ms. GOODALL: Well, that's a tough question. I'm not sure I can answer the crucial spaces. But the best thing to do - the only way that you'll get in the biological sciences is by really determined, really wanting to do it, working really hard, keeping your ears open for opportunities, going on to the web sites of the different colleges that offer different kinds of experience to see exactly which one it is that you want to do. But there's just such a lot left to learn out there. And of course, a big field opening up now is the effect of climate change, how this will effect different species, what can be done, and to help those species when this happens, because it will.

FLATOW: Question from RRW Tweet. And we're tweeted, which we tweed - twittering - tweeting and Jane, I don't even know what I'm doing here. I believe with tweeter. That's sort of an instant message system that's being developed.

Ms. GOODALL: Oh, I see.

FLATOW: And he said. Well, we have a question about. But let me go to this question first. Does Jane Goodall believe all living quote, 'ape-like' species have been discovered? What about Bigfoot or the hobbit? I know you - any update on Sasquatch at all. I mean, I don't believe in Sasquatch, and if anything - any new discoveries on there?

Ms. GOODALL: Well, the last people I was speaking to were in Australia, talking about the yawee(ph) which is their equivalent of Sasquatch. I don't know if these creatures exist. All I know is that everywhere I've been, there are tales of them and there are people who say they've seen them. So I'm not going to go out and say they're not there. There's something, and it's very strange ,and I find it extremely fascinating.

FLATOW: Let's go to Daven Rock(ph) from Illinois. Hi, Dave.

DAVE: Hi.

FLATOW: Go ahead.

DAVE: Oh, it's an honor to talk to you. I was just wondering - I read somewhere that a lot of ranchers have been doing gene banking out there. You know, price cattle and such, I was just wondering if you had been doing the same with the chimpanzees, I mean, you're talking about the dwindling numbers and I just wondered if you'd frozen some DNA samples?

Ms. GOODALL: Not to my knowledge. I'm certainly not involved with anything like that, although in captive breeding, it is true that some sperm has being flown across the world. It was with the banobo. But you know, we haven't quite got down to needing to do that with chimpanzees. There's so many zoos and sanctuaries around the world. And there are efforts made to conduct - well, to help them to breed in such a way as to maximize the gene put.

FLATOW: Barry Good in Second Life has asked that question about the Nobos (ph). What are the prospects of the Nobo population.

Ms. GOODALL: Well, there - they and the orangutans, I think of the worst (unintelligible), great apes,.I suppose mountain gorillas as well. The lowland gorilla and the chimp - have the larger populations left. And the banobo - well, it really depends on what's going to happen in the DRC, that's the only place where they are. And that country is so unstable that the conservation efforts are being over difficult there.

FLATOW: The Congo there.

Ms. GOODALL: Is in the Congo, yes. They conquer conchesa(ph).

FLATOW: Democratic. Yeah. I saw there - and there the war that's going on around there doesn't make anything any better.

Ms. GOODALL: No. The banobos are way north of the war, but the whole - you know, the whole country is a sort of - it's very unsettled, very difficult to establish a long term conservation program, which is what must happen if the banobos - to be saved except in zoos.

FLATOW: Dan in Indiana. Hi, Dan.

DAN (Caller): Yes, great to speak with both of you Ira and Jane. I will - I saw you out in - I think it was Washington, Jane talking about saving the cougars and their habitat and stuff, and logging did seem to be the biggest reason that cougars were being diminished and have you - especially with the environments you're dealing with, have you tried to get like the CEOs of these big companies to come out, see what they've actually done because you know, they're just sitting in a desk somewhere and they - they don't see a lot of these degradation they've caused or have you even - went as far as to maybe boycott these companies?

Ms. GOODALL: Not per se, but the book I'm working on now is about animals and plants rescued from the very brink of extinction. And there's some interesting stories there. And one that comes to mind, the Vancouver Island marmot in B.C. in Canada, and there the numbers were down. I think there were just 12 individuals left and Andrew Bryant was doing his Ph.D. on the fate of the marmot and every morning he'd arrive in the logging camp because that's where his research place was, and he'd ride with them at about 4:30 in the morning. And one day, one of the loggers said, well, you know, what are you doing up there?

And he's trying to explain, he said, come with me on your day off and I'll show you. And that day the guy saw one of these marmots who'd been tranquilized to be banded, marked, or however they do it, and he was so moved by the whole thing that he went back and told his CEO, and the CEO went up and was similarly moved. And as a result, changed his entire logging practice, so as to help the marmots. And now, the marmots are springing back - I think it's around 500. I met this guy Andrew last week and he was...

FLATOW: This is Talk of the Nation Science Friday from NPR News. Talking with Jane Goodall. Jane, when you went out to meet Louis Leakey all those many decades ago, did you ever foresee yourself having to be a crusader to save the life on the Earth here?

Ms. GOODALL: I think you know the answer to that, don't you? I couldn't - back then in 1960, you know it was so different because this conservation threat wasn't there.

FLATOW: Yeah.

Ms. GOODALL: There were maybe way over a million chimpanzees, the African Equatorial Forest belt was virtually untouched and it was after that that this massive invasion of foreign companies came into Africa and started messing everything up.

FLATOW: Mm hmm. So where do you see yourself doing next? You've sort of evolved many times yourself for your lifetime. Are you thinking you're in your last stage of evolution of where you are heading? I mean, that you're in this one direction, you're going to change to another direction, or where do you see yourself going over the next five - let's say five to 10 years?

Ms. GOODALL: Five to 10 years, I shall be carrying on, you know it's 300 days a year on the road. It's Africa, Europe and North America. Next year, concentrating on the southern part of, you know, South America, Brazil, Central America. Really it's Asia. This year Australia, next year India. The world is too big for me actually, but I try and do as much as I can and start the Roots and Shoots group, because this is the future and if we can create a critical mass of youth that understands this life is about more than just money, and that we need money to live but we shouldn't be living for money and you know, all these groups tackled projects to make things better for people, for animals, for the environment that (unintelligible). Get out and take action.

FLATOW: I - I'm sorry, go ahead.

Ms. GOODALL: No, go on.

FLATOW: No, I was just saying that the - has this change of administration, do you think will help you in your work anymore?

Ms. GOODALL: Oh, absolutely without any question. And put it the other way around, and say that the last administration hindered us, it's - I think there's a great big sigh of relief and most people I know are feeling extremely hopeful about the future.

FLATOW: Well, I wish you good luck. I guess there's no better way than to end our conversation by wishing you good luck going around the world 300 days of the year in your travels, and be safe and come back and visit us. It's really when you're - when is your next book do you think will (unintelligible).

Ms. GOODALL: Around September, I think the 18th next year.

FLATOW: Ah, OK. Well we have a date to look forward to.

Ms. GOODALL: Yeah, absolutely.

FLATOW: If not before then, thank you, Jane for taking time to be with us and good luck to you.

Ms. GOODALL: Thanks a lot. Thank you. Bye.

FLATOW: Bye-bye. Jane Goodall, she doesn't need any, you know, introduction. Well, what more can I say? She's a primatologist, environmental advocate and co-winner of the 2008 Leakey Prize and the founder of the Jane Goodall Institute that's based in Arlington, Virginia. That's about all the time we have for today. If you like to write to us, send us some regular classic mail to Science Friday 4 West 43rd Street Room 306, New York, New York 10036. Thank all of you for twittering today. It's going to continue during the week. If you want to twit us, you can send it @ scifritter, may change that back to scifri, make it a lot easier for folk when we get a chance to do that.

Also, we've got the Science Friday pick of the week at sciencefriday.com. What happens when you blow up water balloons in weightlessness? Oh, it's really interesting stuff to watch the water balloons explode because they don't do what you think they're going to do. So you can see that video at sciencefriday.com. Have a great weekend. We'll see you next week. I'm Ira Flatow in New York.

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