Holder Calls Waterboarding Torture

Correction Jan. 21, 2009

In referring to President Clinton's pardon of financier Marc Rich, we said, "Rich was a huge Clinton donor." In fact, it was Rich's ex-wife who donated more than $1 million to Democratic causes, including the Clinton Presidential Library.

Attorney General-nominee Eric Holder has labeled as torture the practice of waterboarding terrorism suspects. Speaking at his confirmation hearing, Holder also said he had learned from the experience surrounding the controversial Clinton-era pardon of financier Marc Rich.

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From NPR News, this is All Things Considered. I'm Michele Norris.

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And I'm Melissa Block.

It was widely expected to be the most contentious confirmation hearing for any of President-elect Obama's cabinet picks. Senators questioned Eric Holder today, the man Mr. Obama nominated for attorney general. Holder took the opportunity to make a forceful break from the Bush administration's national security policies, and he apologized for what he called mistakes of the past. NPR's Ari Shapiro has this recap.

ARI SHAPIRO: At every confirmation hearing for an attorney general since 9/11, Senate Judiciary Committee chairman Patrick Leahy, or one of his colleagues, has asked this question.

(Soundbite of confirmation hearing)

Senator PATRICK LEAHY (Democrat, Vermont; Chairman, Senate Judiciary Committee): Do you agree with me that waterboarding is torture and illegal?

SHAPIRO: Today was the first time a nominee gave this answer.

(Soundbite of confirmation hearing)

Mr. ERIC HOLDER (Nominee, Attorney General): I agree with you, Mr. Chairman, waterboarding is torture.

SHAPIRO: Eric Holder then went further. Senator Leahy asked...

(Soundbite of confirmation hearing)

Sen. LEAHY: Do you believe that the president of the United States has the authority to exercise a commander-in-chief override and immunize acts of torture?

SHAPIRO: Again, Holder gave a more direct answer than his recent predecessors.

(Soundbite of confirmation hearing)

Mr. HOLDER: It's my belief that the president does not have the power that you've indicated.

SHAPIRO: Leahy said...

(Soundbite of confirmation hearing)

Sen. LEAHY: I'm glad to see we now have a nominee for attorney general who's unequivocal on this.

SHAPIRO: If confirmed, Holder will inherit a Justice Department that has relied on legal opinions crafted by Bush justice appointees. Those opinions have authorized some of the most controversial policies of the Bush administration about spying and torture. Holder promised to review, and if necessary, correct or withdraw all of those opinions by the Office of Legal Counsel.

Mr. HOLDER: It is important that these OLC opinions which are so important, as you described, that they truly reflect what the law is, that they reflect our values and I want to ensure that any OLC opinions that are in effect are consistent with those two purposes...

SHAPIRO: Holder also broke with his predecessors on the issue of media shield legislation. This is a proposed law that will protect journalists from being forced to reveal their sources in federal court. The current attorney general has said it would undermine national security. Holder told the committee, he wants to check with career Justice Department attorneys about the details, but in theory...

Mr. HOLDER: I'm in favor of the concept of such a law.

SHAPIRO: Republicans have expressed concern about decisions Holder made when he was deputy attorney general under President Clinton. Holder obliquely acknowledged those concerns in his opening statement when he said, I will adhere to the precepts and principles of the Constitution...

Mr. HOLDER: ...and I will do so in a fair, just, and independent manner.

SHAPIRO: It's that independence that Republicans doubt. They fear Holder won't be able to say no to the president. Exhibit A is the Marc Rich pardon. Rich was a huge Clinton donor. The billionaire was wanted on tax fraud charges. He'd fled the country. President Clinton pardoned Rich on his last day in office. Holder oversaw pardons. Today, he called that a mistake. [POST-BROADCAST CORRECTION: In fact, it was Rich's ex-wife who donated more than $1 million to Democratic causes, including the Clinton Presidential Library.]

(Soundbite of confirmation hearing)

Mr. HOLDER: That was and remains the most intense, most searing experience I've ever had as a lawyer. There were questions raised about me that I was not used to hearing. I've learned from that experience. I think that as perverse as this might sound, I will be a better attorney general, should I be confirmed, having had the Marc Rich experience.

SHAPIRO: The committee's top Republican, Arlen Specter, was not satisfied.

(Soundbite of confirmation hearing)

Senator ARLEN SPECTER (Republican, Pennsylvania): When you take a look at the hard facts, it's a little hard for me to see how you came to the conclusion you did, even conceding the fact that none of us is perfect.

SHAPIRO: Specter asked...

(Soundbite of confirmation hearing)

Senator SPECTER: Were you aware of this kind of a record this man had?

Mr. HOLDER: No I was not, and that was one of the mistakes that I made, I did not really acquaint myself with his record. I knew that the matter involved, it was a tax fraud case, it was a substantial tax fraud case. I knew that he was a fugitive, but I did not know a lot of the underlying facts that you have described. And as I said, that was a mistake.

SHAPIRO: Holder's confirmation seems almost certain. He would be the first black attorney general in the country's history. Holder noted that today would have been the 80th birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr., and he said, I feel privileged just to stand in his shadow. Ari Shapiro, NPR News Washington.

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Holder Says He'll Jettison Bush-Era Practices

Eric Holder, President-elect Barack Obama's choice for attorney general, was questioned sharply Thursday about his role in President Clinton's controversial last-minute pardon of fugitive financier Marc Rich and his push for clemency for 16 radical Puerto Rican nationalists.

But during his daylong hearing before the Senate's Judiciary Committee, Holder, a former judge who served as deputy attorney general in the Clinton administration, remained largely unflappable. He made clear that if confirmed, he would work quickly to remake the embattled and demoralized Justice Department and jettison practices of his Bush administration predecessors.

Rejecting Bush Policies On Interrogation

Under questioning, Holder said he would classify "waterboarding" as torture and move to bar the controversial interrogation practice, during which detainees are subjected to simulated drowning. In an intense back-and-forth with Republican Sen. John Cornyn of Texas over the issue, Holder reiterated his opposition to the technique, even if questioning a suspect who could possess information about an impending attack — what Cornyn characterized as a "ticking time bomb" situation.

Holder said that interrogators have other weapons in their arsenals, and he cast doubt on whether a technique like waterboarding actually produces reliable results. "People will say almost anything to avoid torture," Holder said.

What if the use of waterboarding would help you save tens of thousands of people, Cornyn asked. "It's hard for me to answer your hypothetical without accepting your premise," Holder said. "The premise that underlies that, I'm not willing to accept. I don't think I can do that."

Holder also stated his objection to "rendition," the practice of handing over detainees to countries where they could be subjected to mistreatment or torture. And he reiterated his support for closing the Guantanamo Bay detention camp and said that the process of trying detainees by military commission would either be abandoned in favor of using military or civilian courts or "substantially revamped" to reflect U.S. standards of due process.

"I want to assure you, the American people, and the world: Whatever system we use will be consistent with our values," he said, including the right to due process. "It will be fair."

"We are going to have to come up with American solutions" to the thorny issues surrounding how to fairly treat and try suspected terrorists, he said, while bearing in mind that one of the battlefields in the war on terrorism is for the hearts and minds of people in the Islamist world.

"These are not Republican and Democratic issues," Holder said. "How do we deal in an appropriate way with someone we know is a danger to this country, yet be true to our values?"

A Justice Department Overhaul

Holder, the first African-American tapped to be the nation's top lawman, also assured Democratic senators that he would look into whether legal action should be taken against the former head of the Justice Department's civil rights division.

An inspector general's report released this week cited Bradley Schlozman for discriminating against liberal lawyers, violating civil service laws and lying to Congress. Holder called the report "very disturbing. ... It's antithetical to everything the department stands for." Holder said that if confirmed, he would review a decision by the U.S. attorney's office in Washington not to pursue charges against Schlozman.

Holder and many of the committee's questioners — including GOP Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina — sought to focus on the future and how Obama's pick would deal with the pressing legal and moral issues facing the nation. Nonetheless, Holder's time in the Clinton administration as deputy to Attorney General Janet Reno remained a significant aspect of the day's high-profile hearing.

Discussion about the Justice Department's failure in 1996 to name a special prosecutor to look into then-Vice President Al Gore's White House fundraising activities led to the most confrontational exchange of the day. Ranking Republican member Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, in pushing Holder about whether the decision showed favoritism to Gore, said that it raised questions about the nominee's "fitness for the job."

Holder confronted Specter forcefully. "You're getting close to questioning my integrity," Holder said. "That's not appropriate and that's not fair and I won't accept that." He asserted that there was "never any attempt" on the part of career lawyers or himself to render a decision that favored Gore.

Responded Specter, who earlier had been bickering with Leahy over how much time remained for questions: "You're telling me what you think about it, and I'm telling you what I think about it."

Grilled Over The Marc Rich Pardon

Holder had anticipated rough questioning from Specter. In his opening statement, Holder acknowledged the error of his actions as deputy attorney general in the Clinton administration when the Rich pardon issue came his way. He called the fallout from his tacit support of the clemency one of the most "intense, searing experiences" he has had as a lawyer.

"I made mistakes," Holder said. "I've never said anything but that."

Rich's ex-wife, Denise, was a major Clinton donor. At the time of the pardon, Rich was on the lam in Switzerland, in an attempt to avoid dozens of tax evasion and fraud charges as well as charges of making illegal oil deals with Iran during the 1970s hostage crisis. Holder told the White House he was "neutral, leaning towards favorable" on the Rich pardon, which Clinton granted hours before he left office in 2001.

Specter said that given Rich's notoriety and unsavory background, it was difficult to accept that a high-level law professional like Holder could have failed to recognize the importance of the pardon request.

"Given the background of this man, it's hard to brush it off as a mistake," Specter said. "The guy had a reprehensible record. The guy was a fugitive."

Holder suggested that he did not intend to minimize his actions by characterizing them as a "mistake."

"I take what I did seriously," he said.

Clemency For Violent Puerto Rico Nationalists

Holder later defended his role in seeking clemency for 16 members of two violent Puerto Rican groups involved in bombings and robberies. When pressed by Cornyn to explain why he advocated clemency for prisoners who didn't request it — including four radicals who robbed a Wells Fargo branch of $7.2 million — Holder said the decision was made in a "pre-9/11 world" and hinged on his assessment that the prisoners had served long enough.

"These were people who had served an extended period of time, who did not directly harm anyone, who did not directly murder anyone," Holder said. Faced with a similar situation today, Holder says he may view it differently. "Hindsight is always 20/20," he said.

At the time of the clemency offers, Hillary Clinton was running for Senate in New York, which has a sizable Puerto Rican community.

Under earlier questioning by Republican Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah, who had already indicated he will vote in favor of the nominee, Holder said that he considers a recent U.S. Supreme Court decision that asserts the right of Americans to own guns to be the "law of the land" — one that he would be obligated to uphold.

"In the ballgame that we call our judicial system," he said, "the Supreme Court gets to be the umpire." He subsequently stated that he would, however, seek to close gun show loopholes that allow the sale of firearms between private individuals, and ban the sale of so-called cop killer bullets.

A Stage Set For Confrontation

Thursday's hearing was expected to offer the toughest questioning of any of President-elect Barack Obama's top nominees.

When he took center stage, Holder invoked the historic significance of the occasion. He mentioned not only his father, who at age 12 came to the U.S. from Barbados, but also the legacy of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. Thursday was the slain civil rights leader's birthday.

Anticipating a grilling to come at the hands of committee Republicans, he acknowledged what he called his mistakes of the past and insisted that he has learned from them.

"My decisions were not always perfect. I made mistakes," Holder said of his time as deputy attorney general. "I hope enough of my decisions were correct."

"But with the benefit of hindsight, I can see my errors clearly, and I can tell you how I have learned from them," he told the committee.

"The Department of Justice first and foremost represents the people of the United States," he said. "Not any one president, not any political party, but the people."

He mentioned two cases that he says spoke to his ability to challenge his own party and the president he served: his prosecution as U.S. attorney of former powerful Illinois Rep. Dan Rostenkowski and his recommendation as deputy attorney general that special counsel Kenneth Starr expand his investigation of President Clinton in the Monica Lewinsky matter.

Holder's hearing will continue Friday, when the committee will hear from seven witnesses. Scheduled to appear on behalf of Holder are Louis Freeh, former FBI director; Chuck Canterbury, president of the National Fraternal Order of Police; John Payton, president and director-counsel of the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund; and Frances Fragos Townsend, former homeland security adviser to President Bush. Those invited by Republican senators to testify are Richard Hahn, an FBI special agent who investigated the Puerto Rican radical groups; Joseph Connor, whose father was killed in a 1975 bombing in New York City tied to one of the groups; and Stephen Halbrook, a Virginia lawyer and gun advocate.

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