< U.S. Popularity Declining in Muslim Countries

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Heard on Tell Me More

July 5, 2007 - MICHEL MARTIN, host:

I'm Michel Martin, and this is TELL ME MORE from NPR News.

Coming up, an Arab-American comic on being seriously funny. But first, last week President Bush announced his decision to send a diplomat to the Organization of the Islamic Conference, an association of 56 Islamic states promoting Muslim solidarity. This is the first time in the organization's history that it will have a U.S. representative, and it comes at a time when the United States is viewed less and less favorably around the world, especially in the Middle East, and even in those countries traditionally considered U.S. allies.

A recent poll from the Pew Global Attitudes Project shows in countries like Pakistan, Egypt and Jordan, U.S. popularity continues to decline. And those are countries that are particularly important for the U.S. missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. Joining us now to talk about this is David Newton. He is former ambassador to Iraq and Yemen, and Jim Zogby, founder and president of the Arab American Institute and a senior analyst for the Zogby international polling firm. Gentlemen, thank you so much for speaking with us.

Mr. DAVID NEWTON (Former Ambassador to Iraq and Yemen): Pleasure.

Mr. JIM ZOGBY (Arab American Institute): Thank you, Michel.

MARTIN: Mr. Zogby, let me start with you and the poll numbers, since polling is your business. The three countries with the lowest favorability rating in this recent Pew poll were Turkey and Pakistan and Jordan. What is the catalyst? Is it all about the Iraq war?

Mr. ZOGBY: It is about the Iraq war, but there's a longer and deeper history and it goes back to Israel-Palestine and includes other U.S. behaviors in the region, including last summer's Lebanon war, which for the Arabs in particular, and the Pakistanis, interestingly enough, took a huge toll. There was a sense of enormous loss watching Lebanon be destroyed and seeing the U.S. being perceived as just letting it go on just a lot longer than it needed to go on. At the same time, there's also the stuff that came out of Iraq, and post 9/11, Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib in secret sites. All of this has taken an enormous toll and continues to take a toll.

MARTIN: Ambassador Newton, your thoughts about this?

Mr. NEWTON: Yeah, particularly on the question of Turkey, the big issue there in Turkey is the question of the Kurdish guerillas, the PKK, who are operating partly out of Northern Iraq. The U.S. has not wanted the Turkish army to go in - to go after them. This has become a very major issue in Turkey, particularly because there's a parliamentary election going on, and it's an issue specific to Turkey, but these other issues that Mr. Zogby mentioned are quite accurate.

MARTIN: Ambassador, I think some Americans are puzzled by these findings. Even though we've been hearing this theme for quite a while, that Americans are increasingly - that policies are not viewed favorably abroad - and a reason I think Americans are puzzled is that they - the criticism has been that Americans have talked a good game about democracy around the world but that have actually supported oppressive regimes because it was convenient for the U.S., and now having the deposed Saddam Hussein, that Americans wonder why isn't that seen as a sign that America is actually now serious about democracy. Ambassador?

Mr. NEWTON: Well, in some respects certainly when I was there we did try to promote democracy, but maybe we've talked about it too much. The biggest problem, of course, is that any country like the United States has conflicting interest and sometimes democracy is not even close to the top of the list. This was particularly true during the Cold War when we worried about the Soviet Union making incursions into the Arab world.

Now in the name of the war against terror we also have the same feeling. It works better in a country where you don't have strong countervailing interests, but it's difficult when you need Saudi Arabia, Egypt, which has regressed on democracy, Jordan. It's difficult to pressure these countries hard when you need them for other important things like the war in Iraq, which we all know is not going well.

MARTIN: Mr. Zogby, your thoughts?

Mr. ZOGBY: Well, I think that this democracy issue has - it's an ideological hobbyhorse of the neoconservatives, as if if everybody became democrats the world would be at peace and everyone would love America. The opposite would be true in the Middle East.

In fact, the ones who'd win would be the guys who hate America the most, because in fact public opinion being what it is, if you have premature elections, as we've try to sort of force this agenda, for example, in Palestine, the guys who win reflect the anger, the despair, the frustration on the street. The same would happen in Pakistan right now. The same will happen in Egypt and in Saudi Arabia.

So what we're doing, actually, interestingly enough, when we're pushing democracy, as we are, I think in the very simplistic way that we're doing it, is we're undercutting governments who've actually been friends of ours and tried to help us. That has not help our interest. There are other values we need to be projecting, other things we need to be doing, and we need to be fair in the way we approach people in the region. We have not done that, and I think that is where the problem is.

We can push democracy and lose or we can push people's interests and win. And then, when the region's are a little calmer and attitudes toward us are better, then the transition towards a more modern system and a more democratic and open system, I think, will be easier.

MARTIN: I'm talking with Jim Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute, and David Newton, former ambassador to Iraq and Yemen, about the U.S. image in the Muslim world. Mr. Zogby, just very briefly, Lebanon was the one exception to this poll, where U.S. - the U.S. was viewed more favorably that it had been in previous years. How do you explain that?

Mr. ZOGBY: Well, you know, I have an issue with the poll - with the Pew people, and that is their demographic stuff. We also get better numbers in Lebanon. But the numbers aren't as high as Pew's. One of the questions in Lebanon is what is the actual number of Christians, Maronite Christians, and what is the actual number of Sunni Muslims, and what's the actual number of Shia. We used the CIA rankings, which show Shia much higher than Pew considers them to be.

But in any case, certainly after the assassination of Hariri, the kicking out of Syria and the U.S. position on all of that, our numbers among Sunni Muslims in particular, former Prime Minister Hariri's main constituency, and some Christians went up higher. That is no doubt true. But the divisions in Lebanon are so deep; I called it red state/blue state writ large.

In fact, if you look at the numbers in Lebanon, Iran's favorable ratings and Syria's favorable ratings are higher than the United States's favorable ratings because the larger Shia community and that portion of the Christian community that sort of tends towards Syria for many historic reasons really don't like us a lot. So what you have is, yes, favorables have gone up for America but the hardening of attitudes on both sides has become a real problem in that country.

MARTIN: Ambassador Newton, as we mentioned earlier, President Bush has announced the decision to send a representative to the Organization of the Islam Conference, the OIC. He hasn't named this person yet, but is this important? Is this a significant step?

Mr. NEWTON: I think it's a good move, but I think it's largely symbolic. The Islamic Conference Organization is really not a major player. It was founded back in the old days by Saudi Arabia to reduce Nassar's influence from Egypt. And we should understand, this is a political organization, not a religious organization. So it is useful, but I don't think it will have a major - bring about any major change in the region.

MARTIN: Uh-huh. Jim Zogby, there's this old truism that we hear a lot that we like the American people, we just don't like your government. Do you think that's still true? If it is true, does it mean anything? Does that matter?

Mr. ZOGBY: It's true and actually becoming truer. But in some cases, actually, in a worrisome way, attitudes toward the American people and American values are going down in part because people in the region are saying if you people reelected these guys, if you people have let this go on as long as you have, maybe you, all of you stand for what your government is doing. But the question of American values not being liked in the region, that old thing we hear talked about, that they don't like us because of our values, that is such nonsense.

When I go to Saudi Arabia, I stay in the Four Seasons Hotel. On the ground floor is Saks Fifth Avenue on one side and Planet Hollywood on the other side. Kids are walking around in jeans and basketball jerseys, baseball hats on backwards. They love the New York Yankee hat because of the stylish - the style of it. Across the street is a McDonald's, the other way is a Pizza Hut, a Guess Jeans store the other way.

MARTIN: Okay.

Mr. NEWTON: I mean the fact is they buy American because they like our values, not our products are better but they like a little piece of America. We export our way of life and a value that people like.

MARTIN: I don't know. I think I might argue with you that consumer goods and values are synonyms. But Ambassador, what about you and that whole question of we like you, we just don't like your government? Does that - is that - do you that's still true? Does that matter?

Mr. NEWTON: I think you hear this a great deal. I think you hear it less because Arabs in the past were quite willing to say, well, we don't like your policies, but we think you're misguided. You don't hear that as much anymore. People think that our policies are inimical to the Arab world and they also believed that unilateralism has gotten worse, that somehow they feel devalued, that we don't think they're important enough to take their views and interests into consideration.

We have a new issue now, too, in the last few years, and that is a lot of people seriously are questioning the competence of U.S. policy that is creating - we've seen the problems that Iraq has created and real dangers for the Arab countries surrounding Iraq. So they're beginning to think that American policy could be, in fact, dangerous for them.

MARTIN: So just very briefly, gentlemen. We only have about a minute left and I'd like to hear from both of you. If you have just one word of advice for the current administration about ways or concrete things the U.S. could do to improve its image in the Muslim world. Ambassador?

Mr. NEWTON: I would say, and I think we are changing our style of foreign policy, which is all to the good, but I think we really need to be able to convince people around the world, especially in the Arab world, that we do take their interests and their needs and requirements into account and not just talk about it.

MARTIN: Mr. Zogby, very briefly.

Dr. ZOGBY: Exactly what the ambassador said, but concretely applying that to the question of Palestine and to Iraq by indicating we will not stay in Iraq permanently and we want a responsible way out, and with Palestine that we are going to take and do something serious about the human needs of those people who are suffering now for so long.

MARTIN: All right. Thank you so much for speaking with us. Jim Zogby is the founder and president of the Arab American Institute and senior analyst for the Zogby International polling firm. He joined us on the phone. And here in the studio with me, David Newton. He served as U.S. ambassador to Iraq from 1984 to 1988. He was ambassador to Yemen from 1994 through 1997. Thank you so much for speaking with us today.

Mr. NEWTON: A pleasure.

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