STEVE INSKEEP, host:

It's MORNING EDITION from NPR News. Good morning. I'm Steve Inskeep. Renee Montagne is in Afghanistan as we approach the 10th anniversary of the 9-11 attacks. Hi, Renee.

RENEE MONTAGNE: Hi, Steve.

INSKEEP: And we should mention for those who don't know, that you're in a country that's been at war for a lot more than the past decade, in fact, going back to that Soviet invasion in 1979.

MONTAGNE: This country has been at war for over 30 years, Steve. And that's why I sat down with a man who remembers well what turned out to be a disastrous war for the Soviet Union. Andrei Avetsian is now Russia's ambassador to Afghanistan. But he was first here in Kabul during the '80s as a young diplomat, and he witnesses something that American leaders have come to acknowledge: that the Afghan War can never be won just by military means.

And, you know, Steve, the Russian embassy where we met Ambassador Avetsian is itself pretty interesting, because for years it was in ruins. And now it's been brought back to an elegant modern look right out of the 1960s, which was a time when one can say, in Afghanistan, the Cold War weapon of choice was development.

Mr. ANDREI AVETSIAN (Russia Ambassador to Afghanistan): This is the best weapon you can choose in any kind of war - development - because what Afghanistan needed then and what Afghanistan still needs now, is development, not fighting. I wouldn't call the international situation around Afghanistan in the '60s Cold War. It was competition, healthy competition. And both sides - I mean, Soviet Union and the USA - tried their best to help these people, to show them they are way off, development, social system was better. And that was a competition, the fighting that could have done something to Afghanistan. Unfortunately, it stopped later then, but in the '60s, it was golden time for Afghanistan.

MONTAGNE: So, in the '60s and the late '50s, you had Helmand province being something of a little America, a lot of development going on, schools, English, young girls being taught and taught in English, big dam being built to provide electricity, which even today could provide an enormous amount of electricity for Afghanistan if fighting wasn't preventing it. And then the Soviets, for your part, built a famous tunnel, a really important tunnel that was needed.

Mr. AVETSIAN: Absolutely. And a couple of things that are still working now, are those built by the Soviets. Bread is produced by the silo built in Kabul by the Soviet Union. Some fertilizers are produced in Mazeta(ph) Sharif(ph) by the fertilizer factory built by the Soviet Union. So, a lot of important projects were implemented here, even in the '80s, during the fighting.

MONTAGNE: People seem to be very fond of comparing this current conflict to the Soviet-Afghanistan War. It seems to me that there are some very important differences, although in the end, what are the similarities?

Mr. AVETSIAN: Similarities is those who decided to go into Afghanistan to fight terrorism, hoped for several months, exactly like the Soviet Union, who didn't want to be involved here for so many years. But they were dragged deeper and deeper into this. And in a couple of years' time, they found themselves in the midst of internal conflict. So, fighting in Afghanistan is not what you think it's going to be. So, what is the end to this? Just withdraw? I think premature withdrawal now will bring a lot of problems - new internal war, new civil war to Afghanistan. It is a very dangerous thing, just to put yourself a date, artificially calculated, and then withdraw.

I don't think, today, these circumstances are right for withdrawal of the international forces and transition of responsibility for the security to the Afghan security forces. They are not yet ready for it.

MONTAGNE: Speaking as the Russian ambassador who was here during the Soviet war in Afghanistan, you'd say now is not the time to get out precipitously?

Mr. AVETSIAN: Because the job is not done yet, but I'm afraid with the troop drawdown, economic assistance will go as well. Instead, what Afghanistan needs is increase of development assistance. Not just aid money - because we saw them - billions of them disappearing through the sands in Helmand and other sandy parts of the country. That is not what is needed, pouring Afghanistan with dollars, but giving it to the government in return shows a clear development strategy. But the government must be held responsible for it.

MONTAGNE: Does President Karzai have the will or the power to actually change the way the government is being run now, which is widely known to be quite incompetent and corrupt?

Mr. AVETSIAN: Well, he has all power he needs by the constitution. The corruption...

MONTAGNE: Will he do that? Will he do what needs to be done?

Mr. AVETSIAN: I think if international community decided to support this government, it must support it in everything. And if they make mistakes - of course they make mistakes because it is an experience in general government with very able ministers, but generally with very little expertise. They must be helped, supported - a school here, a dam there is not what Afghanistan needs. It needs a real development as a country, with infrastructure projects. Not just roads that are needed for foreign tanks to go somewhere, but for the future of the economic development of this country. Not a single big infrastructure project was implemented for the past 10 years.

MONTAGNE: Although the ring road, which is really key to allowing goods and services and people to travel around Afghanistan - a road that, by the way, was originally partly built by the Americans and partly built by the Soviets back in the '50s and '60s - that road was repaired and put back into service but the use of it has been thwarted by fighting along the road where people really can't get on it and travel it.

Mr. AVETSIAN: Yeah, of course, with our security situation, no serious company will come and put money into it. I have this problem in attracting Russian companies in Afghanistan. Like all others, they're very worried about the security and they don't just waste money building things that will be destroyed tomorrow.

MONTAGNE: After the Soviet Union withdrew its troops in the late '80s, in '89, it might have stayed committed to Afghanistan in terms of development and helping with development, but it was actually unable to because the Soviet Union, pretty shortly after that, broke apart.

Mr. AVETSIAN: Absolutely. The Soviet Union made a huge mistake sending troops to Afghanistan. And the Soviet Union paid a huge price for this mistake. Russia prefers to learn from the mistakes of the past, and we will never send our troops to Afghanistan. Apart from this, we are ready and we already cooperating with Afghanistan on everything. We support (unintelligible) police, we support international coalition here because we share the goals of fighting against terrorism and international crime. For us, drugs are even more important.

Every year, about 30,000 Russians die of Afghan heroin. Russia can't be involved in Afghanistan from a distance because we are members of the region. We are here. We can't go anywhere like many countries involved now can.

MONTAGNE: Mr. Ambassador, thank you very much.

Mr. AVETSIAN: Thank you, thank you. It's been a pleasure.

MONTAGNE: That is Ambassador Andrei Avetsian speaking with us at the Russian embassy here in Kabul.

Copyright © 2011 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by a contractor for NPR, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio.

Comments

 

Please keep your community civil. All comments must follow the NPR.org Community rules and terms of use, and will be moderated prior to posting. NPR reserves the right to use the comments we receive, in whole or in part, and to use the commenter's name and location, in any medium. See also the Terms of Use, Privacy Policy and Community FAQ.