Copyright ©2012 NPR. For personal, noncommercial use only. See Terms of Use. For other uses, prior permission required.

ROBERT SIEGEL, HOST:

From NPR News, this is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. I'm Robert Siegel.

MELISSA BLOCK, HOST:

And I'm Melissa Block

The fates of the U.S. and Chinese economies are increasingly intertwined. They are, after all, the number one and number two economies in the world. China has been booming for 30 years. But there's a big debate now about whether it can keep growing at its current pace or if its economy is headed for trouble.

David Kestenbaum and Jacob Goldstein from our Planet Money team recently visited China. They brought back this report.

DAVID KESTENBAUM, BYLINE: The debate centers on something you see everywhere in China: construction, new fancy bullet trains, new airports, new roads...

JACOB GOLDSTEIN, BYLINE: ...and new apartment complexes like this one that we just happened to drive by.

KESTENBAUM: Can we try and count up how many apartments are here?

GOLDSTEIN: Yeah, let's just count.

KESTENBAUM: It's, like, infinite in every direction, so it's hard.

GOLDSTEIN: It's six stories, right? One, two, three, four...

Like lots of big developments you see in China, these apartment towers are in the middle of nowhere, empty farmland with nothing around, a few hundred miles from Shanghai.

KESTENBAUM: This is a huge part of China's economic growth: building new stuff. Michael Pettis teaches finance in Beijing and writes a well-regarded blog and newsletter about the Chinese economy. He says there's one big problem: China doesn't need all this new stuff.

MICHAEL PETTIS: China is chockablock full with brand-new airports, most of which have very few flights every day. And we're building more, 45 more airports.

GOLDSTEIN: Airports, desalinization plants, power plants, local governments are building lots of stuff. And most of it is built with borrowed money. If those airports, for example, stay empty, that is a real problem.

PETTIS: They borrowed money, and how do they pay it back? They can't pay it back.

KESTENBAUM: In the U.S., we hear a lot about China's trade surplus. But the money for all this development comes largely from China's biggest banks, which are controlled by the government. Ordinary Chinese people put their money in savings accounts, and the banks lend it out, often to companies that are also owned by the government.

GOLDSTEIN: Zhang Weiying, an economist here, thinks it's a bad idea for the government to control the flow of all this money. He told us that last fall, he was participating in a panel discussion sitting right next to a very high-ranking government official. And Zhang Weiying, he just came right out and said it.

ZHANG WEIYING: I said it's a bunch of smart people, really smart people doing something really stupid.

(SOUNDBITE OF LAUGHTER)

KESTENBAUM: A bunch of smart people doing something really stupid.

WEIYING: Yes, I said that.

KESTENBAUM: Michael Pettis says this sort of thing has happened before in other countries. The government takes money from the people and builds things with it. That means hiring people to build roads, factories, trains, airports. For a while, it feels great, it looks great. Your economy is growing at an incredible pace.

PETTIS: But in every single case, it ended up with excess of debt. In some cases, a debt crisis. In other cases, a lost decade of very, very slow growth and rapidly rising debt. And no one has taken it to the extremes that China has.

GOLDSTEIN: China's building boom is definitely extreme. But Arthur Kroeber, who runs a Beijing research firm called Dragonomics, says everything about China is extreme.

ARTHUR KROEBER: It always looks strange. It seems like things should not work. It should just be a total chaotic mess. But in fact, you know, the track record is pretty excellent.

KESTENBAUM: Kroeber points out this is a country of over a billion people growing at an incredible rate. China needs to build lots of new stuff: new roads, new power plants, new cities.

GOLDSTEIN: He tells this story about Beijing's ring roads. A ring road is what we'd call a beltway in the U.S. It's a freeway that runs in kind of a circle around the city center. When Kroeber got here in 1985, Beijing had just finished building a new one. It was empty. He and his wife rode their bikes on it, in the middle of the highway.

KROEBER: Not in the bicycle lane but in the main part because there were no cars. I remember thinking that time this is kind of crazy, why they had this enormous road. There's with nothing on it.

KESTENBAUM: Since then, the government has completed three more ring roads, each further and further out. Today, they are not empty. Today, they are filled with cars.

KROEBER: Full of traffic all day long, which - it's kind of an emblem of the way things get done here. At any point in the last 25 years, you could walk around and say they're building all this stuff and who will ever possibly use it, and come back five years later and it's not nearly enough. That logic, I think, will eventually come to an end, but it has worked pretty well for them up to now.

GOLDSTEIN: Arthur Kroeber and Michael Pettis and even the Chinese government itself, they actually agree. The Chinese economy does needs to change. The government needs to spend less money building stuff, and ordinary people need to spend more money buying stuff. What they disagree on is how much time China has to make this change.

KESTENBAUM: Arthur Kroeber figures China has got another 10 or 15 years before it has to make the shift. Michael Pettis thinks it may already be too late.

I'm David Kestenbaum.

GOLDSTEIN: And I'm Jacob Goldstein, NPR News.

Copyright © 2012 NPR. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to NPR. This transcript is provided for personal, noncommercial use only, pursuant to our Terms of Use. Any other use requires NPR's prior permission. Visit our permissions page for further information.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by a contractor for NPR, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of NPR's programming is the audio.

Comments

 

Please keep your community civil. All comments must follow the NPR.org Community rules and terms of use, and will be moderated prior to posting. NPR reserves the right to use the comments we receive, in whole or in part, and to use the commenter's name and location, in any medium. See also the Terms of Use, Privacy Policy and Community FAQ.

Support comes from: