SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
Truth is stranger than fiction, but shouldn't fiction writers, of all people, know that? When Walter Kirn, who's written best-selling novels, was just beginning to write fiction, he met a man who was a bold financier, an art collector, a fussy eccentric, a dog lover and a Rockefeller. They became friends. But over the years, Walter Kirn began to learn that the man who called himself Clark Rockefeller was none of that - not even a dog lover. He was a psychopath and a killer. How could the man who had written insightful, best-selling novels that have become movies, including "Up in the Air" and "Thumbsucker," not recognize the fraud right in front of his face? Was the imposter so compelling, or was the novelist, like a lot of other people drawn to the imposter, duped by his own desire to have an attachment to a famous name? Walter Kirn's new book is "Blood Will Out: The True Story of a Murder, a Mystery, and a Masquerade." He joins us from Bozeman, Montana. Thanks very much for being with us.
WALTER KIRN: Thanks for having me.
SIMON: Let's begin with the story of a dog. You were living in Montana. You were writing and ranching and thought you'd help out a crippled dog named Shelby and the woman to whom you were then married. So, how did this connect to the faux Rockefeller?
KIRN: It's 1998, summer, and the Livingston Humane Society gets in a dog that has been run over and shot, and is in a wheelchair because the back half of its body is paralyzed. They put it up for adoption on the Internet because it's a fancy breed, a Gordon Setter, and a man from New York contacts them. His name is Clark Rockefeller. He'd very much like to adopt the dog, he says. He can give it a wonderful home, he has a cook for his other Gordon setter, he serves four course meals to it. He lives near Central Park and can take it for walks every day. The problem is how to get it there because Clark Rockefeller doesn't drive and his plane is in China with his wife that summer. The Humane Society comes to me and says, hey Walter, you lived down the East Coast, you went to Princeton University. Maybe you can talk to this fancy character and figure out how to get him the dog. Long story short, I ended up driving him the dog, in my Ford pickup, from Montana 2,000 miles to New York City.
SIMON: And what was the man who called himself Clark Rockefeller like?
KIRN: Well, I met him on the phone first. I asked him what he did and he said: Walter, I'm a freelance central banker. Other things that came up during the phone call - the fact that he'd never tasted Coca-Cola, never eaten in a restaurant - got me to thinking, I, as a fiction writer, have to meet this guy. It would be professional malpractice if I didn't.
SIMON: Now, you met him finally. He said he lived in the same apartment building as Tony Bennett, as a matter of fact. This struck you as a building where a rich person might live but...
KIRN: Well, you know, it was a block off of Central Park. He invited me up and there was no furniture, no real food in the kitchen. But there was what appeared to be, em, maybe $80, $90 million worth of Jackson Pollocks, Rothkos, and de Koonings hanging on the walls.
SIMON: Was he brilliant at some level?
KIRN: Well, yes, he was. Later I found out what he was really brilliant at, which was lying. He had a physics degree, a mathematics degree and an economics degree, I think, from three different Ivy League colleges. So, why doubt him? Especially once you've seen the props. Once you've seen the art, you buy the person.
SIMON: He'd married to a successful woman named Sandy who paid all the bills. How could this smart woman be with this fraud?
KIRN: I can only answer that question by telling you why I bought this fraud. He was charming. He had a story that explained everything. And so when she came into his life, he had perfected his act to the extent that he'd anticipated every question, had an answer for everything. So, it's like a magic trick. After you know how it works, it seems so obvious. But when it happening, you're enchanted.
SIMON: There was a moment when he gave you the personal phone number of the president, and I forget what the occasion was - but he said go ahead, try it. You'll get him directly.
KIRN: Well, this was the strangest moment in my time with him. I'm staying at his mansion, up in Cornish, New Hampshire, where J.D. Salinger lived. At one point I complain that I've got some tax problems, that government's going to take a couple thousand dollars out of my bank account for a tax bill, and he says, Walter, you can clear that up in a minute. Here, call George, and he writes a phone number down on a piece of paper. And then he said, now, this is his private line. He'll pick up personally. It won't be a secretary. It was brilliant. He knew I'd never dial that number. I mean, the black helicopters would come down and, you know, scoop me out of my house if I dialed that phone number, I thought. I also thought, George Bush will get very mad at Clark Rockefeller for giving out his number, so I can't really dial it. But I put the number in my pocket and kept it there and walked around with it. You know, lies like that stun the mind. You don't question whether they're true or not because you could never imagine making one up yourself that's like it.
SIMON: Yeah. And how did his story begin to unravel?
KIRN: Well, by 2008, I was sick of him. It was always don't call me, I'll call you. But we had bonded over the fact that we were both divorced and had kids we didn't see as much as we wanted. In 2008 I turned on the Internet, I think, and saw that there was a nationwide amber alert for Clark Rockefeller. He'd kidnapped his daughter from a custody hearing in Boston. And I thought, oh no, Clark did it. He snapped. He took his daughter. And even though I knew this was terrible, I kind of felt for him because for the last year he'd been on the phone to me sort of crying on my shoulder about how much he missed her. Then a couple of days later when he was captured, the Rockefeller family came out and said he's not one of us. We don't know who this man is. And my response was: you cowards. You Rockefellers, throwing one of your own under the bus the minute there's a hint of scandal, you know. And I explained it by thinking, oh, maybe he's the, you know, the bastard, unacknowledged child of one of them, or something. Then, a few days later it came out that he was wanted in a gruesome, terrible murder dating back to 1985 in California. And as the details of the murder were described, a chill went through me. And I realized it was all true. He was a fake, he was a kidnapper and, he was, in my mind, a murderer, too. And I had been completely fooled.
SIMON: Yeah. We should mention his real name, the name he got at birth.
KIRN: Yeah, he wasn't even an American. He was Christian Karl Gerhartsriter, a German who had come to the United States, to Connecticut, at 17. He's watched a lot of American television and he especially liked the show "Gilligan's Island." And he had bonded with the character Thurston Howell III, the millionaire, and started imitating his voice and started developing a sort of upper-class American/British vocal manner. He literally was forming his act there.
SIMON: Yeah. As it turned out, he'd adopted several poses before he settled on the Rockefeller one.
SIMON: Mr. Kirn, why do you, in a couple of cases in this book, you refuse to consider yourself a victim, which I understand, even though you were duped, but you even call yourself a collaborator. Why?
KIRN: Because the fact of the matter is, is that until he was convicted of these crimes, everyone believed him. I wanted to show the point of view of the dupe, of the fool. So, I was hard on myself. But I collaborated with him in the sense that every time he told a story that didn't make sense, I tried to make it make sense for him in my mind. Every time he lied and I felt a little twinge inside, I covered it up. And I had to answer the question why I did that.
KIRN: Well, Clark answered it for me. When I saw him in jail after his murder conviction, I said you're not going to admit to the murder - which he didn't, he had a story for that - but it's clear that you were a great conman and a great impostor for many years. What's the secret to fooling people, I said. And he looked at me and he said, Walter, three little words - I'm surprised you don't know - vanity, vanity, vanity.
SIMON: Walter Kirn. His new book, "Blood Will Out: The True Story of a Murder, a Mystery, and a Masquerade." Thanks so much for being with us.
KIRN: Thank you, Scott.
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