Debating the GOP, the 'Oprah Effect'

MICHEL MARTIN, Host:

I'm Michel Martin, and this is TELL ME MORE from NPR News.

It's time for our regular Friday features, Faith Matters, a new take on tithing.

Plus, the Barbershop guys on Sean Taylor and whatever else is on their minds this week.

But first, Friday politics, and we have a lot to talk about. The Republican presidential nominees get the YouTube treatment. No melting snowman, but the funny videos did not stop the sharp elbows.

Also this week, celebrity glamour gets attitude at campaign. Oprah Winfrey is heading out on a trail in behalf of Barack Obama. And of course, Bill is stepping up on behalf of his beloved, Hillary. And Mississippi Senator Trent Lott says he's out of there, only one year into his new term. But talk show host Don Imus goes back on the air. Will the politicians follow?

Fasten your seatbelts with this fast-paced chat with Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson and political commentator Reverend Marcia Dyson. They're in the studio with me in Washington. And on the phone in New York, CBS News political correspondent - senior political correspondent, I should say - Jeff Greenfield.

Welcome to all of you, and thank you for joining me.

EUGENE ROBINSON: Great to be here, Michel.

MARCIA DYSON: Thank you. Good morning.

JEFF GREENFIELD: Indeed. How are you doing, Michel?

MARTIN: I'm doing great, Greeny(ph), if I can call you Greeny. Can I call you Greeny?

GREENFIELD: Yes.

MARTIN: Okay. Well, thank you. I feel at home now.

The Republicans' YouTube debate was the other night. And before we get into the specifics, I wanted to talk about the format. Many of the Republicans were skeptical, because when they saw the Democratic forum, they thought it was undignified. I know you heard me mentioned the Melting Snowman, who was actually asking a serious question about climate change.

So, Eugene, I wanted to ask you. Do you think that this format worked? Did it add value to the process or do you think it diminished the process, as some feared?

ROBINSON: I am not a fan of the format. I like the follow-up question. I like, you know, it is - I guess, what you could say about it is that there's a certain random quality about it that can, at times, bring out the unexpected and as it kind of - as the conversation kind of devolves, you get some fireworks like you got between Romney and Giuliani. But in general - you know, I realized it was the highest-rated debate so far. So, I may be in the minority in this, but I am not a huge fan of this debate.

MARTIN: Really? Marcia, you're shaking your head. You don't like it either?

DYSON: No. I did. It was the highest-rating viewership for the debate. But I think it sort of trivialized the importance of that debate for the Republicans. But, you know, that is the media and you've got young viewers on the YouTube so it integrates a lot of people who normally don't get involved in the political process. And it got a lot of laughter for those who are looking for "Def Comedy Jam" or comic relief. You can get that while you getting politics because that's we've gotten anyway, comic relief. So I guess, it's a proper mix.

MARTIN: Jeff, what do you think?

GREENFIELD: I'm at the center from the previous distinguished years(ph). I like the format a lot.

MARTIN: Me, too.

GREENFIELD: Now, I was not - I think, by the way, CNN has a real problem in vetting. I mean, it's interesting that a lot of committed Democrats got to talk to Republicans. But in the Democratic debate, there was not one question from a committed conservative, pushing Democrats on, you know, on things like abortion or the war. So they got to do a much better job of figuring out who these people are.

But the format itself, for me, it's a little embarrassing to say this, was - I thought that the questions from ordinary folks who aren't intimidated, just bringing them into the studio to ask questions often gets them a little bit flustered. But when they have a chance to put their questions on a video, you often force these politicians not to play the tapes that are stored in their own heads. I thought the question from the person who asked these Republicans - do you believe that every word in this - in the Bible is true - got some very interesting responses. And I thought that the - you know, the question on gun control forced Giuliani, amidst some boos, to say, well, it's a Second Amendment right, but it gets to be controlled by some reasonable regulations.

So I do like it. You know, as I say, you might be able to pick and choose better and leave the stunts, but boy, I sure think they - why it they got more interesting responses than the 50th time that a reporter recites the same predictable questions.

MARTIN: Oh, in fairness to them in terms of their ability to pick a range of questions for this debate, they got a lot more this time than they did for the Democratic debate. And I don't know why that might be. I think it - maybe it's that people understood the format now and they thought it was more fun or just got more attention. I don't know.

So let's move on and talk about some of the substance of the things that they've talked about. The tone was a little different from past Republican debates because there's a little less of, you know, on Hillary, who wasn't there, but a little bit more on the people who actually were there. More - particularly between Mitt Romney and Rudy Giuliani who are the frontrunners. So let's listen to one exchange.

(SOUNDBITE OF CNN/YOUTUBE REPUBLICAN DEBATE)

RUDY GIULIANI: What I'm suggesting is if you...

MITT ROMNEY: No, no. Let's...

GIULIANI: ...if you are going to...

(SOUNDBITE OF APPLAUSE)

ROMNEY: Let me...

GIULIANI: If you are going to...

ROMNEY: Let me finish the rest of my story.

GIULIANI: If you're going to take...

ROMNEY: Let me finish the rest of...

ANDERSON COOPER: No. You asked him a question and let him respond, and we got to move on.

GIULIANI: If you're going to take this holier-than-thou attitude that your whole approach to immigration was so...

ROMNEY: I'm sorry, immigration is not holier-than-thou, mayor. It's the law.

GIULIANI: You're going to take a holier-than-thou attitude that you are perfect on immigration...

ROMNEY: I'm not perfect.

GIULIANI: It just so happens you have a special immigration problem that nobody else here has. You were employing illegal immigrants.

ROMNEY: You know, what is...

GIULIANI: That is a pretty serious thing. They were under your nose. And...

COOPER: All right, we...

ROMNEY: I ask the mayor again, that if you have a company that you hired and provide a service...

DUNCAN HUNTER: Cooper, let us jump in here.

ROMNEY: ...that you now are responsible for going out and checking the employees of that company - I don't think that's America, number one. Number two, let me...

COOPER: We got to move on.

MARTIN: Jeff, are the two perceived frontrunners really trying to draw a distinction between them, is there really that much difference between the two positions or are they just trying to draw some blood?

GREENFIELD: Actually, I think on substance, there is a distinction. Both the - I'll oversimplify this - both the pro and anti-immigration voices in Massachusetts actually agree that Mitt Romney - you may not like this - but as a matter of fact, was fairly tough on the illegal immigrant issue. He always opposed driver's licenses. He was not a fan of what Mike Huckabee tried to do of folding them into in-state tuition breaks.

Rudy Giuliani, I talked to his most sympathetic biographer yesterday, Fred Siegel - Cooper Union - It is no question that under Giuliani, New York while not in name, in fact, was a so-called sanctuary city. I mean, you have to be in Berkley or Madison, Wisconsin, where the mayor will officially say that. But Giuliani, in so many words said, if you happen to be undocumented and you want to work, we welcome you. Immigrants took in New York, despite their status - call them illegal, call them undocumented - had access to the same public facilities that anybody else did. And Mitt Romney's position was tougher.

Now, you know, in that sense, it was interesting that John McCain and Mike Huckabee who, by most accounts, including mine, did the best the other night. Both had relatively sympathetic words for these folks. Now, whether that resonates in a place like Iowa, where illegal immigration is the number one issue according to the survey - for Iowa Republicans, I don't know, but I think there are distinctions. The question, I guess, is whether or not those Republicans were not in a let's-build-a-fence-and-deport-everybody mood are going to respond more to the tone set by McCain and Huckabee than the anti- immigration folks are going to try, you know, figure out who's the toughest on immigration that I can vote for.

MARTIN: And I do wonder how this plays out in November. Because in the Democratic debate, when this question - the question of immigration came up the big argument was whether you supported letting illegal immigrants have driver's licenses or not, and this kind of a whole different kind of conversation.

But, Marcia, I wanted to ask you this. I could not help but notice that it wasn't until question 16 that there was the first question asked by a person of color asking a direct question.

DYSON: Mm-hmm.

MARTIN: And there were very few questions by people of color. Let me just play that question for you.

(SOUNDBITE OF CNN/YOUTUBE REPUBLICAN DEBATE)

DAVID MCMILLAN: On a variety of specific issues - gay marriage, taxes, the death penalty, immigration, faith- based initiatives, school vouchers, school prayer - many African-Americans hold fairly conservative views, and yet, we overwhelmingly vote Democrat in most selections. So my question to any of the Republican candidates here is, why don't we vote for you?

MARTIN: That was not the first question asked by a person with color. It was, like, I think the second or third.

DYSON: Right.

MARTIN: But so, Marcia, I wanted to ask, do you think the Republicans helped themselves with that constituency in this debate?

DYSON: I say that they tried to but if you look at any of the Republican conventions, you will see African-American descent people sprinkled throughout the convention periodically, and if - to give us some flavor, sort of a seasoning.

But you know, I think that maybe the Republican Party will be dismissive not to include the conservatives and the African-American people have demonstrated - I mean, we are a very conservative group and they have not courted us as well. And not court us for just for our vote but not because of our conservatism but because of the moral perspective which they take we do embrace, though. In the media, you wouldn't think that because of how they want to play that out. But, you know, we have to remember that a Republican administration left a lot of black people in murky waters of New Orleans, too. So you got to get up a whole lot of house cleaning before you come in to the house and to get the African- American support there. But I think that they have really overlooked the conservatism and the moral perspective of most African-American families in America.

MARTIN: Eugene?

ROBINSON: I think Marcia is absolutely right, and I think this is something that Karl Rove and George Bush, despite the Katrina failings I think at something they understood better than the current crop of Republican candidates understood that this is a nation that is increasingly diverse and that if the Republican Party is going to have a long-term future to say nothing of becoming a majority party, they're going to have to attract some minority support.

And so I think Rove and Bush really wanted to focus on the Latinos. Well, that's kind of, you know, they're not really making a big play for that this time. And I think they - that Rove and Bush understood that African-Americans are a real important constituency in a way that I don't think this group of candidates, anybody in this group of candidates really gets.

MARTIN: And Jeff, you were down there, right? You were at the debate, right?

GREENFIELD: Actually, I wasn't.

MARTIN: Yeah.

GREENFIELD: I planned to. It's a long story...

MARTIN: Okay.

GREENFIELD: But I...

MARTIN: Well, either way, but I'm just - I was interested in the question that they were asked about the Confederate Flag, where - we're not going to play the question - but there was a young man asked the question with the confederate flag in the background and I wasn't quite sure where he was coming from on that with the Republicans. But he asked what does this flag mean to you? And I was intrigued by the way the candidates used the opportunity to tamp down the divisiveness of the issue rather than sort of playing up the Southern heritage, and, you know, you can't tell me what to do theme, which has been seen in the past. Jeff, I was wondering how you reacted to that, and how you think the audience responded to that answer.

GREENFIELD: You know, this is the echo - this is an echo from 2000, when John McCain waffled on that. The issue was, this confederate flag be displayed at the Capitol itself Carolina where was it then as there will be now on a early primary. And McCain actually later went - later, went back to South Carolina and said I - fudged this one - this is a symbol of racism and actually, Mitt Romney was fairly clear about that.

But I do think, you know, in South Carolina, they're kind of settled down. I have been in South Carolina a couple of times. They've split the difference on that, and I do think that nobody wants this issue. What the South Carolinians want, least of all, was for the issue even to come up again. When it came up at the debate in South Carolina, there was hardy booing with the question. And on this one, I know Romney, who also said - no, there's no - this flag stands for something that shouldn't be.

If I can just make the broader point...

MARTIN: Very quickly.

GREENFIELD: ...oh yeah, very quickly, is there are Republicans including Ken Mehlman, the former chairman, who despair at the continuing inability of their party to follow through on their frequency, you know...

MARTIN: Okay.

GREENFIELD: ...things about we got to get this vote more to vote.

MARTIN: And we got to take a short break.

Jeff Greenfield, Eugene Robinson, Marcia Dyson, they're going to stick around for a few minutes. We'll talk about the Oprah effect and Imus. That's next.

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