National Security Adviser Flynn Reportedly Talked With Russian Ambassador NPR's Scott Simon speaks with The Washington Post's Greg Miller about reports that National Security Adviser Michael Flynn discussed U.S. sanctions with Russian officials before the inauguration.

National Security Adviser Flynn Reportedly Talked With Russian Ambassador

National Security Adviser Flynn Reportedly Talked With Russian Ambassador

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NPR's Scott Simon speaks with The Washington Post's Greg Miller about reports that National Security Adviser Michael Flynn discussed U.S. sanctions with Russian officials before the inauguration.


The Washington Post reports that Michael Flynn, Donald Trump's national security adviser, did discuss sanctions against Russia with the Russian ambassador before President Trump's inauguration. At first, Mr. Flynn had denied this story, then a spokesman said he couldn't be certain the topic didn't come up. Sanctions were imposed on Russia by President Obama in December after U.S. intelligence reports said that Russia had meddled in the 2016 election. Greg Miller is the national security correspondent for The Washington Post. He's been reporting this story. Mr. Miller, thanks so much for being with us.

GREG MILLER: Happy to do it.

SIMON: Latest piece of news - you report that General Flynn spoke to the vice president, Mike Pence, to try and contain the reaction to the ongoing story.

MILLER: Yeah. They appear to have had at least two conversations yesterday, one in person and then one by phone. And I think this is - you're right - this is part of an effort by Flynn to shore up his standing in the White House and, in particular, his strange relationship with the vice president.

SIMON: I'm sure a lot of people are wondering - how do you know this? I mean, wasn't that a private conversation ostensibly?

MILLER: Well, this was (laughter) - as you - if you saw the story, it is attributed to administration officials, and I can only tell you that these were officials who would have had direct knowledge of these conversations.

SIMON: So one of the other person on the phone?

MILLER: I can't (laughter) - I can't go that far with you. I'm sorry. I mean, we have to honor the agreements we have with our sources who describe some of this to us.

SIMON: Yeah. The sequence of events that made some people suspicious, even from the outside, of - President Obama imposed sanctions and expelled from Russian diplomats from the U.S. after these revelations, then Michael Flynn speaks with Sergey Kislyak, the Russian ambassador. And 24 hours later, Vladimir Putin says he won't expel U.S. diplomats from Russia.

MILLER: Right. And that was a pretty astonishing development. In the history of U.S.-Russia or U.S.-Soviet relationships, there's almost always retaliation. In this case, Putin doesn't. He just almost extends an olive branch. And that caught everybody by surprise to such a degree that officials across the intelligence community and senior national security jobs are looking for clues as to - why did this happen? And that's when they start to really scrutinize Flynn's calls with the Russian ambassador.

SIMON: Is there something potentially illegal if General Flynn did let the word sanctions cross his lips?

MILLER: Absolutely. The answer is complicated, though, because, yes, there is a law that is - that bars any unauthorized person negotiating with a foreign government, especially in a case of a conflict between the United States and that government. The trouble is it is a law that dates back to 1799 and has never been prosecuted in more than 200 years.

SIMON: Well, and it's a little bit foggy as laws go, isn't it. I mean, what constitutes - short of a declaration of war, what constitutes an enemy?

MILLER: And what - you know, what sort of transaction would trigger this law? Without any case history, authorities at the FBI really don't have any map for how to bring a case of this nature. And doing so would probably chill real conversations - appropriate conversations - between U.S. - between Americans and U.S. officials and foreign diplomats.

SIMON: Yeah. Well, this opens this. I mean, General Flynn has had a relationship with Russian officials in the military and in the Russian media, for that matter. Does he have to mention sanctions for them to know he knows how to look at things from our viewpoint?

MILLER: Yeah. I mean, you're - that's a good point. I mean, you can - it's easy to think that Russia would say - would have known that this Trump administration, once it's in office, is going to re-examine a lot of these policies. And it may not have to worry about this, may not have to secure an explicit promise that it's going to do so from Mike Flynn on December 29.

SIMON: In the 30 seconds we have left, Mr. Miller, why go after this story? What's so important to the interests of the United States about this?

MILLER: One - because it undermines U.S. policy. If Flynn did this, he was undermining our existing government at the time. And two - really significantly, this White House has denied it categorically, repeatedly, and those denials were not true.

SIMON: Greg Miller, a national security correspondent who's with The Washington Post, thanks so much for being with us, sir.

MILLER: Thank you.

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Trump's National Security Adviser Reportedly Discussed Sanctions With Russia

Questions have loomed over National Security Adviser Michael Flynn's contact with a Russian diplomat in late December — and the explanation provided by the White House has changed over time. Win McNamee/Getty Images hide caption

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Win McNamee/Getty Images

Questions have loomed over National Security Adviser Michael Flynn's contact with a Russian diplomat in late December — and the explanation provided by the White House has changed over time.

Win McNamee/Getty Images

Updated at 3:45 p.m. ET

National Security Adviser Michael Flynn's contacts with Russia's ambassador to the U.S. in December included a discussion of U.S. sanctions imposed by then-President Barack Obama, according to new reports that contradict what the White House has said about the matter.

The sanctions included the expulsion of 35 Russian diplomats; when they were announced in late December, they drew a notably muted response — and no retaliation — from Moscow.

Citing current and former U.S. officials, The Washington Post reports, "Flynn's communications with Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak were interpreted by some senior U.S. officials as an inappropriate and potentially illegal signal to the Kremlin that it could expect a reprieve from sanctions that were being imposed by the Obama administration in late December to punish Russia for its alleged interference in the 2016 election."

The question of the contacts' legality largely rests in the Logan Act, which bans unauthorized U.S. citizens from communicating with a foreign government "with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government ... in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States."

The Logan Act was passed in 1799 — but there are no recorded prosecutions under the law.

It's been known that Flynn had contacts — text messages and at least one phone conversation — with the Russian ambassador before President Trump's inauguration. The White House has said nothing improper took place, although its explanations for those contacts have shifted.

In an interview this week, Flynn twice flatly denied discussing sanctions with Kislyak, the Post says. But the newspaper adds that Flynn's spokesman later gave a more nuanced response, saying that Flynn "indicated that while he had no recollection of discussing sanctions, he couldn't be certain that the topic never came up."

The topic has evolved over time: When NPR's Tamara Keith reported on the issue on Jan. 13, she said, "Sean Spicer, the spokesman and incoming White House press secretary, insisted all of this contact happened before President Obama announced the retaliation, and, as a result, Obama's move to expel 35 Russian diplomats wasn't a topic of conversation."

Those sanctions were announced on Dec. 29; within hours of saying all of Flynn's contact with Kislyak had taken place on Dec. 28, Spicer clarified to NPR that a phone call between Flynn and Kislyak had taken place "around the same time" the retaliation was announced. As to whether the two discussed the U.S. sanctions and/or a potential Russian response, Spicer told Tamara it was "doubtful."

After Obama imposed the sanctions, a retaliation seemed certain. Russia's Foreign Ministry mocked the U.S. president online and recommended an in-kind expulsion of 35 American diplomats. But Russian President Vladimir Putin said, "We will not expel anyone" — and invited the children of U.S. diplomats to visit the Kremlin's Christmas tree, as NPR's Lucian Kim reported.

Lucian added, "Putin said in his statement he will work to restore Russian-U.S. relations based on the policies of incoming President Donald Trump."

On Sunday talk shows last month, when Vice President Pence was asked about the controversy, he said on CBS's Face the Nation that it was "strictly coincidental" that Flynn and the ambassador spoke around the time the sanctions were levied — and, he added, "they did not discuss anything having to do with the United States' decision to expel diplomats or impose censure against Russia."

Today, an administration official tells NPR and other news outlets that Pence had based his response on conversations he had with Flynn as he prepared to appear on the show.

Responding to the most recent reports about Flynn, California Rep. Adam Schiff, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, said the allegation that Flynn might have secretly discussed ways to undermine U.S. sanctions "raises serious questions of legality and fitness for office." And if Flynn or other officials have misled the public about the matter, Schiff said, "his conduct would be all the more pernicious, and he should no longer serve in this Administration or any other."

As the story of Flynn's contacts with Kislyak emerged last month, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence announced it would investigate allegations that Russia meddled in the U.S. elections; the FBI has also been looking at the charges.

The ranking Democrat on that Senate panel, Sen. Mark Warner, released a statement Friday saying the new reports "underscore both the gravity and the urgency" of its investigation.

NPR's Mary Louise Kelly, who's filing a story on the Flynn allegations for today's All Things Considered, says she has reached out to senior Republicans on the House and Senate Intelligence committees. Rep. Devin Nunes of California declined comment through a spokesman. As of Friday afternoon, she hadn't heard back from Sen. Richard Burr of North Carolina.

Pence and others in the incoming administration dismissed reports that members of the Trump team had been in touch with Russian officials during the presidential campaign. Shortly after the election, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov was quoted telling a news agency, "I don't say that all of them, but a whole array of them, supported contacts with Russian representatives."

Flynn's relationship with Russia has drawn questions before — particularly after the former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency shared a table with Russian President Vladimir Putin at a gala in Moscow for the state-run news channel Russia Today.

On Friday, the Kremlin delivered a rather unenthusiastic denial of the Post's story.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov, reports state-run TASS media, "said his understanding is that 'there were certain conversations (between Flynn and Kislyak)', though 'it is better to double check the information in the Foreign Ministry."

"Other than that the information is not correct," Peskov added, according to TASS.

NPR's Mary Louise Kelly contributed to this report.