The 'More Perfect' podcast examines the Supreme Court

ASMA KHALID, HOST:

We've all heard so many headlines lately about some thorny issues - abortion laws, immigration or freedom of religion. The stories behind those stories often start with decisions made by the U.S. Supreme Court. At the same time, public trust in the court is at a historic low, which makes it a good time for the return of the podcast "More Perfect" from WNYC Studios. It's their fourth season of telling the human dramas behind big Supreme Court cases.

Julia Longoria is the host of More Perfect, and she joins us now. Good to have you.

JULIA LONGORIA, BYLINE: So nice to be here.

KHALID: So the story of the Supreme Court is something I understand you have been invested in personally for a very long time - since childhood. You were a self-described Supreme Court nerd in high school, competing in the National We The People competition. I confess, I did not know that existed. So what is it about the Supreme Court that has kept you engaged enough that you wanted to host an entire podcast about it?

LONGORIA: Yeah. I grew up in Miami, Fla. Both my parents are Cuban refugees, and it was a pretty conservative environment. And just learning about the court - to me, it seemed like it really could be a place above politics, which, today, politics have seeped into the court and maybe have for as long as it's existed. But I find it to be a place where ordinary people clash with some of the biggest arguments and ideas in our country, and that just makes for really incredible radio documentaries about people's lives intersecting with the biggest stakes possible.

KHALID: So I want to ask you about one of the people at the center of these cases. We're going to spend a few minutes talking about Episode 1 of your new season. It just dropped. But my understanding is, the man that this first episode centers around, Al Smith - it's actually a story that you have been wanting to tell for a very long time. Tell us about that.

LONGORIA: I first read about the case in high school. It involves a man named Al Smith, as you say. He was a Native American man from southern Oregon who ingested peyote in a Native American church ceremony and then was fired for doing so because peyote was illegal at the time in Oregon. And so he took his case all the way to the Supreme Court. And the court actually said, no, you can't break a drug law for religious purposes.

And to me, growing up in a Catholic environment where, you know, we have wine at mass, it seemed a little odd. I was so eager to talk to Al Smith, so I started making phone calls. I learned that Al Smith actually died in 2014. But, in a stroke of incredible luck, this law professor at the University of Oregon had spent hours sitting with Al Smith in the '90s, and he had recorded his interviews.

GARRETT EPPS: The feast of mini discs.

LONGORIA: You just hear this man come to life.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

AL SMITH: These huge buildings that I had to live in.

KHALID: Was he who you had pictured?

LONGORIA: He wasn't, really. I mean, he's a complicated man in that he grew up at a time when the U.S. government was making a concerted effort to separate native children from their culture, and so he was put in boarding schools.

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SMITH: I started running away, I guess - fourth grade, maybe, or something. I walked on the railroad tracks.

LONGORIA: As a teenager, he became an alcoholic.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

SMITH: High school was, like, kind of the beginning, then, of alcohol.

LONGORIA: His transformation happened in Alcoholics Anonymous.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

SMITH: So that was the beginning of the change of my life.

EPPS: Yeah.

SMITH: I had to learn to live all over again - how to behave different, how to treat people, how to treat myself.

LONGORIA: And that's when he rediscovered, as he puts it, his grandmother's God.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

SMITH: I could remember my grandma used to pray in Indian...

EPPS: Oh, wow.

SMITH: ...every night, see?

EPPS: Huh. You didn't know what she was saying...

LONGORIA: Yeah. I guess I hadn't pictured such a nuanced and complicated person, but of course he is.

KHALID: Mmm hmm. And Julia, you know, the court in that case ruled 6-3 against Al Smith, basically saying that Al Smith can't break the nation's drug laws because of his religious belief. And so fast forward, and we are now seeing a lot more religious freedom cases coming up in the courts. And it seems that, in many cases, the court now is ruling in favor of people's religious freedom. So what has changed?

LONGORIA: You know, over the years, the politics around religious freedom have changed. And the people suing in the Supreme Court aren't coming from minority religions like the Native American Church. They're largely coming from majority religions - Christians saying that they want to sidestep anti-discrimination laws to deny services to same-sex couples. You know, the court is having conversations about Masterpiece Cakeshop - about these, you know, Christian cases right now. In the background, they're talking about Al Smith's case.

KHALID: But it seems like the court is not ready to totally overturn the Smith decision.

LONGORIA: That's right. Justice Samuel Alito - in a concurrence in a recent case, he said it's time to overturn Al Smith's case. But other justices seem more reticent. Amy Coney Barrett said, well, if we get rid of Smith, what's the new standard we're going to have as a court when we look at these cases? So it doesn't seem that the court is going to overturn Al Smith's case anytime soon, yet they are ruling in favor of religious people. So it seems like they're kind of having their cake and eating it, too.

KHALID: So before we go, I want to ask you about the second episode in your podcast season. It focuses on Justice Clarence Thomas. And, you know, he has been the focus of a lot of news headlines recently for his lack of ethics disclosures. You, though, focus on a different aspect of his life - his - how his views on racial justice have evolved. And you described him at one point as being one of the most powerful Black men in America, which I thought was really interesting.

LONGORIA: Yeah. I mean, you know, he's the justice who's been on the court the longest right now. In five more years, he could be the longest-serving Supreme Court justice ever. And with a new conservative majority on the court, his decision, you know, commands the court in a lot of cases. And so, you know, with all the revelations coming out with his relationship with Republican megadonor Harlan Crow, it's tempting to think that Clarence Thomas, you know, is selling his opinions to the highest bidder. But when we dug into his past, we actually found that Clarence Thomas thinks he's doing what's best for Black poor people in America. I mean, here's a clip of him talking about how he feels misunderstood by people in his own race.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

CLARENCE THOMAS: It pains me deeply, or more deeply than any of you can imagine, to be perceived by so many members of my race as doing them harm. All the sacrifice - all the long hours of preparation were to help, not to hurt.

KHALID: I mean, you found out a lot about how his own views on race and racial politics have evolved.

LONGORIA: Yeah. In college, we learned Clarence Thomas actually was a bit of a Black nationalist. He listened to Malcolm X on records and could recite his speeches from memory. But reading his opinions through that lens was really fascinating. I think because Clarence Thomas holds so much power in our country, it's important to try to understand what he's doing from all angles.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

KHALID: Julia Longoria hosts the fourth season of More Perfect from WNYC Studios, the 12-episode podcast series about the Supreme Court's most significant rulings and their impact today.

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