Transcript: NPR's interview with Muckracker and The Heritage Foundation In the interest of full transparency for our audience, we are posting the interview transcript and video of an interview between NPR and the Heritage Foundation's Oversight Project.

TRANSCRIPT: NPR's interview with the Heritage Foundation's Oversight Project

This interview was part of NPR's reporting for this story.

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JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): I'm gonna also start recording on my end.

ELLEN WITTMAN (HERITAGE FOUNDATION): And then we have like this free floating mic, Jude, so you want to just, does Mike just need to talk directly into the mic for best audio quality or what?

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Sure. Yeah. We can, Mike do you want to just do a little soundcheck? Give us your name and title.

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): Yeah. 1-2-3-4-5. I'm Mike Howell, executive director of the Oversight Project.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): I think that's sounding pretty good. What do you think, Audrey?

AUDREY NGUYEN (NPR): Sounds good.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Okay, great.

AUDREY NGUYEN (NPR): Anthony, could we get a couple? Could you just tell us your name and title as well, so we can make sure that you're sounding good?

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Sure. My name is Anthony Rubin, and I'm the founder of Muckraker.com.

AUDREY NGUYEN (NPR): You both sound great. Thank you so much.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Great. Thank you again for for joining. So I wanted to start by asking you guys about, um, well, about the relationship between Oversight Project and Muckraker. And so you guys have been working together on this thread and, and other projects. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): Yeah, absolutely. I'd just like to start by saying thanks for taking the time to sit down with us. This is the first time I've ever paid with my taxpayer funds for a hit piece on us. But, uh, the relationship between Muckraker and Heritage is a very, very powerful one. It's not one we go into great detail because, as you well know, we're going up against some very powerful and dangerous people to include the cartels, weaponized Biden administration, etc. and we're not interested in giving an org chart out. Uh, the proof is in the pudding with the bombshell reporting we've, we've put out, and we're glad to work with the great patriots at Muckraker, and for that matter, anybody across any ideological spectrum who's willing to to fight the invasion of the United States.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Okay. And. When, when it comes to this flyer, can you walk me through, what was your process to verify the flyer that appears in that thread?

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): Right. So it's, we have a copy of it, it's real. I have it. It's on camera there. We have an affidavit about how it was, you know, come about. Uh, Gaby did not respond to comment from the Daily Signal. That's our process. The flyer is very real. It's telling illegal aliens to vote for Joe Biden at an invasion staging camp south of the border.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Yeah. Um, I mean, but if, oh so, so you, reached out to to Gaby before you published?

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): No, no, we published it. It was in the immediate public interest to know about the invasion in the United States. We had very little confidence that somebody who says their goal is to fight U.S. policy and is running an invasion camp would be willing to play ball. And so we we wanted the public to know about, you know, the political elements of this invasion as soon as possible. And, you know, as expected, she declined comment. She really has only been talking to, you know, regime media throughout.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): So you mentioned there, you, and you are alluding to running, a camp. And so our reporting has shown that there is a a camp in Matamoros that has had many different iterations with different waves of immigration, and it's gone through different cycles and looked different ways. There was a time when RCM did have a leadership role, it was staffing that camp from my understanding. But that, that is not the case right now. That it, it is kind of no one organization is in charge of it and that the local government is emptying it out and moving migrants to a different place and that there's very few people there right now. And so one of the things I'm trying to understand is, is if, if they if this organization does not have a direct connection to that camp, how does that how does that square with with what you're alleging about the flyer and its dissemination?

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER):Well, let me say this, okay. I was down there. I'm sure if you saw the New York Times hit piece, uh, they, you know, so graciously included a video of my brother and I when we were in front of the Matamoros Resource Center. And while we were there, we met a man by the name of Hugo Abraham. Whether or not that's his real name, I'm not sure, but that's what he went by. And, um, he is apparently allegedly, the, uh, director of the Matamoros Resource Center, right there in Matamoros, so he's running that compound. And he gave me a firsthand tour of the camp. Right? And he actually walked us through. He knew everybody in the camp, and he was showing, hey, that, these people live over there. The Russians live back in back here in the back of the camp. And he was so familiar with it that he was, you know, letting himself into these different tents. And he was poking around and seeing if the Russians were there because he wanted to introduce us. So this idea that they don't have, um, any tie ins with that camp is, is total nonsense.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): My understanding is that some of the individuals who have been there have been there for quite a long time. Um, and so and they are just right across the street. So we did also talk to to Hugo as well. And he said that he was showing you around because at that point you had said that you were wanting to volunteer, that you had said that you had previously worked with migrants, that you had previously worked or currently worked with HIAS, and he was under the understanding that you were looking to volunteer. Is that accurate?

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): That he was under the impression. Well, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, we were we were down there and we were inquiring whether or not it would be possible to volunteer. I'm not sure if you've done your background, any background research on myself. I'm sure you have. I mean, I'm well acquainted with the situation. I've followed the whole trail from Quito, Ecuador to the United States, crossed the Darien Gap. You know, I rode the train of death, been smuggled into Mexico by the Sinaloa cartel. I got kidnaped by the Gulf Cartel. The point is, I know the ins and outs of this thing. I've studied these NGOs that hand out all the maps. So, yeah, of course, we were inquiring whether or not it would be possible to, uh, volunteer. But the point is, the reason why I brought up Hugo or Hugo as you, as you call him, is because you had mentioned that Matamoros Resource Center is not affiliated with the camp. What I'm saying is, if the director of Matamoros Resource Center is giving me a firsthand tour, and knows these people by name and knows exactly where the Russians are, and is so comfortable in that camp that he's letting himself into their tents without knocking. I mean, to me, that shows that there's, uh, some sort of connection going on there.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Um, the. When, when one of the conversations you had with Hugo is that you asked, he said that you asked about if he knew of any organizations in the U.S. that were helping migrants to vote. Is that is that something you were asking about?

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Excuse me, there's somebody, I have, I have room service knocking on my door. I'm on the road right now. Um. Hey, I'm okay. Thank you very much. Can you repeat the question?

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Yeah. I was just wondering if, if it's accurate that among the questions you asked Hugo was whether he knew of organizations in the U.S. that help migrants vote?

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): I don't know if I asked that exact question. I'm sure you do. I'm sure that you have some audio recording of the entire conversation, though.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Um, no, I was not there for for that conversation. But I -

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): I don't recall exactly what I said, so I'm not going to go on record and say exactly what I may or may not have said. I do not recall exactly the words that came out of my mouth.

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): Hey Jude, I know some organizations in the US who are trying to help illegal aliens vote, they would include the Biden administration. We just put out some shocking evidence on that today about their plans for it. The D.C. state government, we put out evidence yesterday about their plans to get illegals to vote, uh the Democrat National Committee and their associated lawyers, who are keeping all the vulnerabilities wide open for them to vote. Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas, a former board member of HIAS, who is as you know, the architect of this invasion, to uh, change the country to more preferential voting terms for them. So if you want to talk about organizations that are trying to get illegal aliens to vote, I got, I can go all day about that.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Well, you know, I, I am really curious about that, and I would like to learn more. I think the scope of this story, um, I have, like, a, a pretty long draft right now, so I can't add, sort of stuff outside of the flyer and Matamoros to this particular piece. But I'll be looking at what you posted for sure.

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): Please do, retweet and share.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Okay. And, um. When we had some folks we work with as stringers go down to Matamoros um, to to try to report out this story, um, we've had, we have struck out finding anyone who has seen this flyer. Um and I just wonder if, I mean, we've talked to NGOs that are not RCM. We have talked to migrants who have no affiliation with RCM, and we have talked to migrants who have spent time inside RCM's office. We have tried to really cover our bases, talking with people who would be the most likely to have seen this document. But we have come up empty handed, and I wonder if you have an explanation of something we might be missing here about why why this flyer wouldn't, wouldn't be visible.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Well, I, I can't comment on that because I have no idea, uh, what your means and methods are for uh, questioning these people. I mean, I'm not sure you might be, you might be spooking them. I can tell you firsthand, having been on the ground talking to these illegal aliens for years now, in you know, many different countries throughout the entire trail, you know, if you know, if you approach these people a certain way, uh you will not get information out of them. So I can't comment on that. But what I will say is that the reason that we were tipped off to this story to begin with, it wasn't just, ah, mere coincidence that we just happened to be down there, "Wow, we found these flyers." No, we were tipped off to this by a worker in New York who's working at one of these illegal alien compounds. Um, and this guy called us up, and he said, listen, you know, I saw a flyer that this illegal alien who was living in this compound that I'm working at obtained, and, uh, he said, it says on the flyer to vote for Biden. He says, here's where you need to go. It's it's right there in Matamoros. And so we went and it checked out. So that's how we got this lead to begin with. Just so you are aware.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned that because I was wondering how it all fits, how, how it all fits together. So you got the lead and that brought you to Matamoros. And then it was it in Matamoros that you found the individual who is, who authored the affidavit?

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Was it in Matamoros that we found the individual. The individual who authored the affidavit um is somebody that that we have a close connection with. This isn't some random individual.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Okay and so then.

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): And obviously we're protecting our sources and methods on this. They're up against some very dangerous, dangerous people.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Right.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): And so this, are there dates that you allege, that because the, the uh, the affidavit is dated, after the thread came out. And so I'm wondering if there are dates that pertain to when this individual, ah, alleges that they saw these flyers inside the office and when they recorded the video.

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): So I'll answer that one. Yeah, of course, we have more information in the affidavit that we're keeping closely held until it's absolutely necessary. But the reason why the affidavit stated after the fact is because there is a uh pretty coordinated misinformation campaign after we posted the international breaking news story that we did. Uh there's individuals associated with Gaby who claimed that two poseurs placed the flyers and that unfortunately, you know how disinformation spreads on the internet, gained a little bit of a viralness to it. And then later, Gaby came out of hiding and changed her story to the Associated Press and said she had no idea how the flyers got there. And then some Soros activist lawyers, uh, were out there basically alleging that they think they could have been planted. And so we wanted to end with, you know, out of shadow of a doubt with a sworn affidavit under the penalty of perjury, that that was not the case. And so that's why we released it. Obviously, this is an ongoing investigation, and we're not, uh, releasing all of our things to the opposition right now, the opposition being those who were staging the invasion into the United States via these camps and running cover for them in the media and elsewhere.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Are we meant to understand that the video that appeared on, on, um, on X was recorded by the same person who authored the affidavit, or was the video that we saw on the X thread recorded by, by Muckraker or by Anthony or um somebody else on the team?

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Well, there were multiple videos in the thread.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Sorry. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm talking specifically about the one of the flyers in the porta-potties.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Was that filmed by the, that was filmed by the individual who, uh, who was, you know, who gave the affidavit. Yes.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Okay. So the individual who gave the affidavit. Okay, so did you when you were in Matamoros, did you see this flyer in the wild, like, besides the besides the the way that you have disclosed seeing it, is there anything more we should understand about how, how you are have encountered this flyer?

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): No, I think that the Twitter thread speaks for itself. All the information that you need is right there.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Okay, um. One of the things that has come up with this is that Gaby has denied authoring the flyer. There are signs that she did not. I mean, the-

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Signs that she did not? What are the signs that she did not? Other than her denying it, which I don't think that she would ever do anything other than deny it. So what are the signs that she did not? Other than her denial, which we could expect?

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Well, I mean, if you if your interest was to promote, uh, an idea and your organization, it seemed unusual to, with a flyer to a specific audience in Spanish, it seems unusual that you would use a phone number that you know is, is disconnected and not, no longer working or copy and paste from a website that you haven't updated in that communication. Um, and so-

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): That doesn't seem unusual to me, by the way. If she's the author of the website, that makes perfect sense as to why it's on the flyer. And I think there's a degree, if you were going to do something so outrageous, plausible deniability built in. And also, she's, you know, not a native Spanish speaker as we understand. So all these reasons have been proffered, but none of them go one direction or or the other. You have somebody who says it's their goal to, oppose U.S. policy, openly subverting the United States or staging invasion camps into the U.S. with something that meets up with the political activity history of that camp. We posted numerous pictures of that area with "Bye Trump" balloon signs. Can you believe that? It's like they went to Party City and got balloon signs. They have other photos of Kamala and Joe. These are these are very, very radical people. And I think, you know, the fact that the mainstream media and legacy media are taking this person who's subverting the U.S. at their word, is the most laughable part of this whole thing. And that's why we put out so much evidence. And the counterattack has provided absolutely zero evidence. Our international bombshell reporting has stood the the test of all scrutiny and will withstand some more.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Yeah. And I am just very curious. I mean, have you guys encountered any definitive evidence that refutes what we've put out, other than hearsay, other than her claim that she didn't do it, which again, it is expected, of course.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Well, I think what, I think the issue here is that if the allegation is that these flyers were distributed for the purpose of convincing people to see them, like with the purpose of having them be seen, and having, um, migrants see them and act on them, it would, one would expect there to be some evidence of of them being around, of, of other people having seen them, of people hearing of the organization promoting voting in other contexts. And we haven't been able to find that.

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): Yeah. That's where I think you take a jump and a skip there. There's no allegation of that. What we provided is evidence that the flyer was at the camp. But go ahead, Anthony.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Well, you know, let me just say this with without divulging too much, because this is ongoing. But I think that I could safely say this without jeopardizing any sources right now. You know, I had an individual reach out to me. Okay, who's. Here's what you need to understand, okay? And um, maybe you already know this. I'm not sure how much investigation you've already done into this matter and affiliated organizations, uh, you know, in Matamoros and then there in Brownsville, in the Rio Grande Valley at large. But there's a whole ecosystem there in the Rio Grande Valley, and right across the border, of these different NGOs. Okay. I had an insider, who I'm not gonna, I'm not going to name names. We're still working with this person. But I had an insider reach out to me. Um, who told me flat out, he says, "Hey, listen, uh, they are passing photos around of you, and of myself and my brother, in these, in these, groups, in these group chats that have the heads of all these Rio Grande Valley migrant, illegal alien NGOs. Okay, but that's not the point. My point in saying this, so I continue to talk to this guy, and then he tells me more about some of these NGOs down there, and then he says, yeah, just so you are aware, like, um, these organizations down there, I'm not going to name names right now. We will report on this in the future. But he says these organizations openly tell these illegals to uh go to blue states to avoid red states because they are not as friendly and your, your asylum case may not go the way you want it to go, um and to support the Democratic Party. This is told to me by an individual who has direct tie ins with some of the giant, some of the biggest illegal alien NGOs there in South Texas. So just so you're aware. So when you're telling me that there is no, uh, evidence of these people, you know, trying to get these illegal aliens to vote, I mean, that that's just simply not true. They certainly do encourage them. You know, but the flyer was a bit damning, and that was actually in writing.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): I'm sorry I missed. Can you repeat, what, wait, what so I...I was following with the, these organizations are in the chat thread. But what was the part about promoting voting?

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): So what I'm telling you is that this individual who reached out to us, who told me that, who told me that we were essentially being doxxed, doxxed, myself and my brother, in a group chat that contains the heads of these various South Texas illegal alien NGOs. Um, then goes on to tell me that these same NGOs, the names I will not mention, uh, openly tell these illegals to vote a certain — not not to vote a certain way — but to support a certain side of the political spectrum. To support a certain party, the Democratic Party, for various reasons that he listed. So just so you're aware, I mean, it's not as if these people are not being told this information.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): OK.

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): And Jill Biden went down to this camp. I mean, I don't know what else people need to understand about this being a partisan, uh, you know, center for activity. "Bye Trump" balloon signs, Jill Biden going down there. All of this connected together I think leaves most people, and this is why the story, you know, went so viral is because they understand this is what the invasion is for.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Not only that, let me, let me just add this. You know, I have interviewed these people, again, for years. And I could send you, you know, I'm actually, you know, maybe I'm, maybe I'm actually going to do this. Um, I've been putting it off for way too long. I probably have like an hour in total of the footage just interviewing these people. "Hey, who do you support, Biden or Trump?" And they all say Biden, every. I've never found one that says they support Trump. And they know why, because he supports the migrantes, right? I have videos down in, uh, Southern Mexico, um, of a giant caravan as they they've been stopped by the police and they're all very angry and agitated, and they all start chanting for Biden. Okay, that's on my Twitter page. You guys go find it. So this idea that you know, that this is not for political purposes and that this would not be then weaponized once they cross the border, is pretty ridiculous.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): I think I'm still failing to find the leap between what you're saying and somebody casting a ballot and committing a crime.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): You're, you're, you don't see the connect. Well, that's. I , I, I don't know what to say. I mean, maybe.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): I mean if-

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): I mean, maybe if I had a whiteboard we could, like, actually draw it out. I don't really know what to say. I mean, there have been, it it's on record that illegal aliens have fraudulently voted in our election. Now, to what degree? I suppose you could debate that, but it's not up for debate that that's happened. Unless you, unless you disagree with that.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): No. I've seen studies that show that it is incredibly rare.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Whoa who whoa. Incredibly rare or not. I mean, that's a serious crime.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Yeah.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Would you agree?

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Oh, yeah. No, no, no, but I mean, I'm just saying that if if, a migrant who says that they, when you say, "Do you like Biden or Trump?" And if they answer, "Biden," to me, I'm not going to assume that that person is going to attempt to vote in the next election.

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): You know, I would encourage you to look at all the lawfare efforts designed to make sure the elections can be voted in by by illegal aliens, you know, the resistance to the basic citizenship question, the bombshell report we just released about a White House meeting saying that we should trust illegals to act within the bounds of the law. All these things in concert, I mean, it's pretty obvious to the everyday American, maybe not in the newsrooms at NPR, but that this invasion is political in name.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): To be honest with you, Jude, I, I don't believe, if that is who I am talking to I can't see your face, but I'm assuming that's who I'm talking to here.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Yes, it is.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Okay. I, I truly don't believe that that you don't see the danger here. But I think that you may be toeing a certain line. I mean do you truly, based off everything we've told you here, and I'm sure that you you're a smart person. I mean, you got a job at NPR. I don't think that they hire morons. Um, do you, do you really not see the danger with what we're talking about here?

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Well, I think that you guys have hit on an incredibly hot button issue. Um, I think there are a lot of people who are concerned about election integrity. There's a lot of people who are concerned about immigration. And your, um, the thread that you've worked on has gotten a lot of attention. Um, and that is why we are trying to report out the facts to make sure that we understand what is going on here. I mean, that, I mean, that is. There, the stakes are incredibly high for the themes that you guys are, are touching on.

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): They are. We could have a president elected by illegal aliens in this country after we just had a very, uh questionable election last go around. I don't think the public can withstand uh more trust uh being broken down in their election system. And that's why this invasion and the loosening of voting restrictions and the protection, I will say, of the illegal aliens' ability to vote is, is so paramount.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): I'm wondering if you can explain, um, I, I appreciate that you, um have, um, decided to not disclose everything about um, all of the partnerships and arrangements. But I mean, is it fair to say that that Muckraker was paid for this investigation?

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): No, it's not fair to say that all because we haven't said that. We don't go into our sources and methods. We're the most prestigious international investigative body. Along with Muckraker, we have plenty of relationships, worldwide. And I'm not going to put out an org chart for the cartels or NPR.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Okay? No, I and I said that just because I saw the Oversight Project stamp on the video. And so normally there would be a financial transaction to obtain video, but we can leave it at that.

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): We'd be happy to partner with NPR on one of these as well. I'll throw that out there. We will work across the ideological spectrum. Anyone who's willing to fight the invasion.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): I'm wondering if...

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): We won't charge you for the stamp either.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Okay. Um, I'm wondering about. I mean, so this issue that we've talked a little bit about, but I mean, this issue about whether or not Gaby Zavala authored this flyer, she says she did not. Your position is that there's no evidence that she did not do it, and that your investigation still stands, because the point is that this flyer exists and was seen in a place where migrants could see it. Is that is that accurate?

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): That's a lot of words to say there is a flyer in a porta potty in an invasion camp encouraging illegals to vote for Biden. But.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): But I'm trying to understand if like...

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): But nobody, nobody ever alleged that she was the author. Nobody ever alleged that. I have not seen that alleged by Muckraker or by, uh, Heritage.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Right. But I think by circulating a document that has somebody's name on it, then by extension, it's it's promoting, it's circulating, that piece of information. And so she's been, this is somebody who says she has not authored a document who is now in the public sphere associated with the document. And so I just wonder, like, in a situation like that with if, you know, if Oversight Project's name was on a document and other people promoted it and, uh, insisted there was a link, like, would you have an expectation of some kind of verification process?

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): Well, I have zero expectations that the media is going to be, uh, anything other than that already have been in this country and that's, you know, very partisan and slanted. And I'm sure the hit pieces have already come in on, on us, just like I'm sure this one will end up. So no, I have zero expectations of that. I know that a lot of people will treat us very, very unfairly. We just ask that you treat everyone else nicely. We've got to be people of character.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): I mean, because, Anthony, you were at the you were at the RCM facility. Did did it occur to you to ask for their perspective on the flyer, if they knew where it came from or had any relationship to it?

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Did it occur? It it certainly occurred to me. Yeah. It's not as if that thought did not pass through my head. Ah, but you know what also passed through my head is the uh, thought of me getting kidnaped not very far from there before. I mean, I was literally kidnaped with my brother by the Gulf Cartel that operates right there. After they kidnaped us, they dropped us off at the port of entry, that's right by that Matamoros Resource Center. Okay. They operate right there. So if you think that thought didn't pass through my head, you'd be incorrect. Of course it did. But, you know, the other thought is, well, I need to maintain a low profile here because I am in enemy territory. The cartel literally told me, never come back here again. And there I am, standing there. So, you know, I kind of have to, you know, pick and choose what I'm going to say and try to maintain a low profile. And I would think that saying, showing up there and saying, "Hey, check out this flyer." You know was, I mean, that might, you know, uh, bring unnecessary attention, shall we say, upon myself and my brother, in enemy territory.

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): Yeah. I'll add this is an invasion into the United States. Would the United States reach out to the CCP to verify intelligence about them flooding fentanyl into this country? Of course not. This is an invasion into the US. We aren't going to get into, uh, running things up through, you know, connective tissues to cartel chains and org charts. We put the flyer out. The flyer was accurate. It remains accurate.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Okay. Well, I'm. I'm really grateful to you guys for, um, for your time. I, you know, always want to hear, uh, the perspectives of everybody that we're reporting on whenever they touch a story. And it's so important to be able to to talk and get to listen. Do you have, um, anything else that you would like to add?

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Well, I would like to add a question, perhaps. Um, did you happen to read the New York Times article, the hit piece?

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Um, yes, I did.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): I'm just curious if you guys are considering just, you know, not that you have any obligation to, but I'm curious if you guys are considering taking a different approach to this article or if it's going to be the same sort of line of, ah, you know, writing. It's going to be just another similar hit piece. Like, do you guys have a different angle here or or how are you guys approaching this? I'm just very curious.

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Well, I'm grateful to you guys for giving us the time. I wanted to find out if there was more evidence that we were not aware of, so that we could frame our story. And we'll go back over this interview and evaluate what you've said and take it from there.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): I do have one more question.

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): I have a final question. Are you familiar with the organization ACORN?

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): I am, yes.

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION): Do you have any previous association with them?

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): I mean. I am not here to discuss, um.

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): Is that a yes or a no? I'm struggling to understand. You work for us at NPR. Did you previously have an association with the far-left group ACORN?

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): I did voter registration the summer that I graduated from college, and I, but this is not going to be a conversation about, um, about me. I, I'm going to end the interview there. Thank you.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): You are going to end the interview. Hold on a second. I got one more question. Unrelated to ACORN.

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): Did you register any illegals?

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Of course not.

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): Okay.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Last question, you know, it would be, it would be great if you could answer this. Are you concerned at all with illegal aliens possibly voting in our upcoming election?

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): I am not answering any more questions.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): You can't? That should be a simple answer, should it not? You're not concerned about that?

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): We're going to end the interview there. Thank you.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): We're going to end the interview?

JUDE JOFFE-BLOCK (NPR): Yeah. Thank you.

MIKE HOWELL (HERITAGE FOUNDATION OVERSIGHT PROJECT): We gotta shut NPR down pretty soon.

ANTHONY RUBIN (MUCKRAKER): Oh my God.