Writer: Blame White Consumers for Hip-Hop's Bad 'Rap'

MICHEL MARTIN, host:

There's been a lot of talk this year about hip-hop and the effect of hip-hop on the culture, whether because of the Don Imus controversy or the D'Mite piece you just heard. So for another take on this topic, we're going to go to Justin Ross.

Mr. Ross is a Democrat, serving his second term in the Maryland House of Delegates. And he is a lifelong hip-hop head. But now, he says, to the degree that there is a problem in hip-hop, he might be a part of the problem. He wrote about his dilemma in a recent opinion piece in The Washington Post Outlook section, and he's here with us now. Welcome.

Mr. JUSTIN ROSS (Democrat, State Delegate, Maryland House of Delegates): Thank you very much.

MARTIN: Here's how you started your piece. You said that when it comes to sexism and racism in hip-hop, I'm part of the problem. How so?

Mr. ROSS: Absolutely, I'm part of the problem. I think that white America purchases a great deal - perhaps up to 70 percent of rap music in this country. So when you have…

MARTIN: And you're white.

Mr. ROSS: And I am white. You know, so when you have a discussion about the state of hip-hop and the fact that it perpetuates, you know, misogyny and it pushes these racist stereotypes, I mean, I think it has to be part of the discussion - not to the exclusion of any other, discussion that was - has been had or will be had, but certainly a part of it.

MARTIN: What do you like about hip-hop yourself?

Mr. ROSS: I grew up in Prince George's County, born and raised, you know, grew up in Hyattsville in Greenbelt.

MARTIN: Which is a suburb outside of Washington, D.C.

Mr. ROSS: Right.

MARTIN: Diverse suburb.

Mr. ROSS: Very, very diverse suburb. It's the only thing I ever remember liking, honestly. It's what we listened to from the time we were in grade school. I mean, part of the reason I like it is the fact that it is so universal. And I've had so many conversations. It's kind of like football in the sense that, you know, you can talk to somebody and just like, oh, you know, what artists do you like? And then we kind of go back and forth and argue a little bit. Oh, you know, he's whatever. He's played out. And, you know, kind of had that discussion, and it sort of, you know, it brings people together. You know, I just see blacks and whites and Latinos and Asians sort of enjoying it altogether. That's what's so beautiful about it. It's intellectually honest.

MARTIN: Okay. But what's the downside, as you see it?

Mr. ROSS: The downside is that the vast majority of what you hear on the radio, you know, perpetuates racist stereotypes. It's completely misogynistic. It talks about women, you know, treats them essentially like animals. I mean, they're so cavalier with this, you know, drug talk and gun play and all this, you know, craziness.

MARTIN: Okay. But in fairness, a lot of black people watch James Bond movies, and there usually aren't any black people in them. You know, Halle Berry being, you know, the exception. Is using another culture as escapist fiction that bad?

Mr. ROSS: Yes. It's one thing to be honest about a particular culture. It's one thing to talk about, you know, when Common talks about coming up on the south side of Chicago and - by all means, I'm not the final arbiter on any of this. It's just my opinion. But if he's honest about it. There's a difference between being honest about it and then glorifying it.

And that's the problem I see. And I deal with lots and lots and lots of young people who, you know, we don't need one more single thing in this country telling kids that there's such a thing as a quick fix and a fast buck. I run into these kids and I have, you know, when they're 18 years old and they've barely got out of high school - if they got out of high school. And they have bought into this - what I call the billion-dollar lie, you know, James Bond and everything else. It's not as relevant. It's not as cool. It's not as important. And when they hear the music and they're talking about, you know, I'm pushing weight and I'm selling coke and da, da, da, da. I mean, if you come to the D.C. suburbs, you know, the world I represent, that is a big problem.

And it's not something we should glorify. It's terrible. It tears apart families. And the fact that corporate America is pushing these stereotypes and pushing this imagery - you know, and white folks in the suburbs are buying it.

MARTIN: You talk about the fact that in this whole course of this discussion issue that many people have been having about hip-hop and the effect that it has in the culture, you said you haven't heard a peep from the white fans who essentially underwrite the industry. And I wonder, is part of that that white people don't feel it's their conversation to have?

Mr. ROSS: Well, for sure. And I wondered if it was my right to have that part of the conversation.

MARTIN: I was wondering, because you're kind of backing off the argument that you made very clearly in your op-ed piece. And now you're kind of hedging it. And I wonder whether you feel like you got some push back, like, why are you in it?

Mr. ROSS: I'm not asking anybody's permission to be in this. I'm in it because I'm in it. You now, it's wrong. And if something were affecting white kids or Latino kids or Asian kids or black kids, I would hope that the rest of the culture stood up.

MARTIN: You wrote about the fact that maybe the tipping point for you came when your 3-year-old wanted to listen to music on the iPod and you checked out what was there.

Mr. ROSS: Yeah. Yeah.

MARTIN: And there was nothing on it that you were willing to let her listen to, and you'd bought it all this year. What happened?

Mr. ROSS: Yeah. I just - I did have a lot of stuff that I, you know, we listen to. We listen to, frankly, for you D.C. listeners, we listen a lot of Chuck Brown in my family. You know, a lot of - there's a lot of good stuff that we listen to. But I realized, wow. You know, here I am. I've been waxing intellectual about this thing for a long time, and I'm still buying it.

MARTIN: So what are you going to do?

Mr. ROSS: I'm not buying it anymore. I'm not going to buy it. I'm not going to download it. I'm not going to do anything. I'm going to support artists, and I'm going to encourage everyone I can to support artists that don't rely on pushing stereotypes and pushing misogyny and things like that. There's so many good artists out there. You know, folks like Common and folks like Talid Qualy(ph) and Kanye and, here in D.C., a guy named Wale(ph), but you don't hear it on the radio.

I think that white folks have, you know, been aloud this sort of psychic distance because of the music, because of the imagery, and frankly, sort of the overt discussion of whom they are speaking to and about when they're saying killing. I'm going to kill that guy, you know? And I think it allows white folks sort of the psychic distance to be like, oh, well that's sort of interesting and cute and whatever. But they're not talking about me.

If the music was we're coming to the suburbs. We're going to push, you know, dope in the suburbs. We're going to beat down white men, would we still be listening to it? I can assure you the answer is no, speaking on behalf of all white people in America. The answer is no. And I - and it's - so therefore, you know, it's hypocritical and it's wrong. And I don't want to be a part of it.

MARTIN: Reaction to the piece?

Mr. ROSS: Overwhelmingly supportive. I've heard from people from France, from South Africa, all over the world, and, you know, across racial lines. I did, you know, no question, I had some detractors that - there was a misunderstanding that I might have been saying something about - bad about Public Enemy. I just want to make sure - absolutely not. Public Enemy is one of the reasons I love hip-hop.

MARTIN: What is our favorite Public Enemy cut?

Mr. ROSS: "Fight the Power," of course.

MARTIN: What else?

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. ROSS: What else?

MARTIN: Justin Ross, a Democrat, represents Prince George's country in the Maryland House of Delegates. You can find a link to his article on our Web site, npr.org/tellmemore. Delegate Ross, thanks so much for coming here.

Mr. ROSS: Thank you very much.

(Soundbite of song, "Fight the Power")

PUBLIC ENEMY (Singing Group): (Rapping) Swingin' while I'm singin'. Hey. Givin' what you're gettin'.

MARTIN: And that's our program for today. I'm Michel Martin, and this is TELL ME MORE from NPR News. Let's talk more tomorrow.

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