A Composer On The Couch: Mahler Meets Freud Baltimore Symphony Conductor Marin Alsop's latest musical adventure muses on a famous meeting between the troubled composer Gustav Mahler and the father of psychoanalysis, Sigmund Freud.
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Marin Alsop Discusses Mahler With Scott Simon

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A Composer On The Couch: Mahler Meets Freud

Marin Alsop Discusses Mahler With Scott Simon

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Going to be a big summer for Gustav Mahler in symphony halls across America and Europe. The Austrian composer and conductor was born 150 years ago this July 7th. The Baltimore Symphony Orchestra will be among those honoring Mahler when it opens its season this fall with the performance of Mahler's Seventh Symphony. Of course we're joined by our friend Marin Alsop, musical director of the BSO. Thanks very much for being with us.

Ms. MARIN ALSOP (Musical Director, Baltimore Symphony Orchestra): It's great to be here, Scott.

SIMON: And I should mention, we left this piece out, that Mahler died in 1911...

Ms. ALSOP: Right. But do you know...

SIMON: ...in case people are expecting a big birthday party.

Ms. ALSOP: We like to try to extend and expand these anniversaries as much as possible.

(Soundbite of laughter)

SIMON: Yes. All right, well, he was considered a bridge between centuries, wasn't he?

Ms. ALSOP: Oh, absolutely. As my great mentor and teacher Leonard Bernstein said, Mahler was the prophet of the 20th century, and I really think that's true. I mean, he was pushing the envelope of composition in terms of length of symphony. Every symphony becomes an epic journey. It becomes about the exploration of not only the world around him but his inner psyche and his relationship to humanity and spirituality. So you know, this was something new.

(Soundbite of music)

SIMON: I believe a great observer of the music scene, you, said that to understand what Mahler's presence was like you have to understand what it's like to be a rock star now.

Ms. ALSOP: Oh, definitely. He cut a pretty dashing figure. You know, he was very slim, very mysterious, quite exotic. He always wore a cape. And so there was this mystery about him and people were just he was magnetic, I think, as a person. And people were - gravitated toward him like magnets.

(Soundbite of music)

SIMON: You've chosen Mahler's Seventh to open the season in September. Why that?

Ms. ALSOP: Well, the Seventh Symphony, for me, is every single Mahler symphony, I should say, is an adventure. It's a journey. You know, because Mahler, in each symphony, he's not just trying to capture one idea, he's trying to deal with the entire question of life existence, after life, why we're here. It can get pretty heavy, you know, and he's trying to cover a lot of territory.

The Seventh Symphony has two movements that are called Night Music - Night Music 1, Night Music 2. So in the midst of these huge orchestrations, you know, 120 people on stage, suddenly there are these little almost intermezzi, you know, intimate song-like experiences. In the fourth movement he uses a mandolin and a guitar. It's such a quiet, intimate experience in the midst of this insanity, you know, of dealing with the destruction of civilization to suddenly have this beautiful moment.

(Soundbite of music)

Ms. ALSOP: Also there's another fascinating quality for me about his music, which is that he loves to incorporate popular music. You know, people think Mahler's so inaccessible, but suddenly a klezmer band breaks out or a funeral band marching away.

SIMON: Cowbells...

Ms. ALSOP: Cowbells. He puts cowbells in. I mean, for us today it sounds a little bit odd. But of course in the time it would've been extremely evocative of, you know, rural life of the day.

(Soundbite of music)

SIMON: That's Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic, 1966 recording.

How well received was he as a composer as opposed to a conductor in this time?

Ms. ALSOP: Well, as a composer it was secondary, if not completely subservient to his renown as a conductor. He changed everything about conducting. You know, conducting, when Mahler did it, suddenly took on a leadership role. He was the one, for example, who demanded that the Viennese public arrive on time to the opera or they couldn't get in until there was a break in the music.

SIMON: Try that with your major donor circle these days.

Ms. ALSOP: Yeah, really, exactly, you know, those kinds of things. Or he was the first person to demand that people not applaud in the middle of pieces or between movements because it would break his concentration. I mean, you know, he really changed and upped the ante tremendously for conductors. And as a matter of fact, in his own music it's really fascinating. He leaves little notes for the conductor don't do this and this and be sure you do this and don't forget about this all over the place. And, you know, and they're now footnotes in the published scores, because he knew that the conductors around him wouldn't pay as much attention to the detail as he wanted.

So it's interesting. It's kind of fun to do his music because you have all these direct little notes and you're going along Marin, don't, no, no, I told you not to do that.

SIMON: Is that intimidating? I mean, it's a note from Gustav Mahler.

Ms. ALSOP: It is a little intimidating, especially when you decide to ignore the note.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Ms. ALSOP: Which I do occasionally, but not often, I promise. I promise.

SIMON: You make a comparison between Mahler's Symphony Number Five and Beethoven's Fifth.

Ms. ALSOP: Well, you know, Mahler felt that Beethoven was his almost, you know, to use the lingo of the time, archetypal father figure. And he put Beethoven, as most composers did and continue to do, on a pedestal, unlike any other. And he revered his Fifth Symphony. Of course we all know the opening, ba-ba-ba-ba, to the Fifth Symphony, so much that in Mahler's Fifth Symphony, he opens with the same figure. It's slightly different, ba-ba-ba-ba, ba-ba-ba-ba.

(Soundbite of music)

SIMON: Well, they say great artists don't borrow, they steal.

Ms. ALSOP: That's true, isn't it? I mean, it's fantastic. And this idea, also, of the Ninth Symphony having some kind of superstitious connotation because, you know, Beethoven wrote nine and he started on his tenth, and of course died. So Mahler tried to avoid this fatalistic experience and instead of writing a ninth symphony at the time, he wrote "Das Lied von der Erde." And then went on to compose his ninth symphony, and then died right after his ninth symphony while he was working on this tenth.

SIMON: Goodness gracious.

Ms. ALSOP: It didn't work.


(Soundbite of music)

SIMON: Not background music, is it?

Ms. ALSOP: Definitely not. It's every Mahler symphony to me is a it's really an adventure. And every time I conduct a Mahler symphony, at the end I feel that my life has been changed somehow.


Ms. ALSOP: Wow, I know. I'm sorry. I don't mean...

(Soundbite of laughter)

SIMON: I don't think you've ever I've never heard you say that about another composer.

Ms. ALSOP: Oh, well, you know, I just I really feel strongly about these symphonies. And immersing myself in the Seventh, you know, as we're going to open our season with the Seventh, I end up feeling, ah, this is definitely my favorite Mahler symphony. But then I just recently conducted "The Resurrection," the Second Symphony in London with a chorus of 600 people. And of course all I could think all week was, oh, this is definitely my favorite.

So, you know, it's one of those I'm thrilled that he wrote so many symphonies and that we can all have this year to celebrate and explore his music. Who knows, maybe people will really understand what an incredible rock star he was.

SIMON: Marin, thank you.

Ms. ALSOP: My pleasure. Thank you, Scott.

SIMON: Marin Alsop, musical director of the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra, which is opening its season this fall with a performance of Gustav Mahler's Symphony Number Seven.

(Soundbite of music)

SIMON: To hear more music by Mahler and read about Gustav Mahler's (unintelligible) meeting with Sigmund Freud - you wonder, did Freud bill by the hour? You can go to our Web site, NPR.org.

This is WEEKEND EDITION from NPR News. I'm Scott Simon.

(Soundbite of music)

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