MELISSA BLOCK, Host:
NPR's Tamara Keith has this story on the debate over what comes next.
TAMARA KEITH: It's now very clear that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were a bum deal for taxpayers. They reaped huge private profits and ultimately stuck taxpayers with the losses. The government now runs them and it's costing a lot of money. So it's not all that surprising that so many people here in Washington, D.C. are saying the same thing.
TIMOTHY GEITHNER: We need to wind down Fannie and Freddie and substantially reduce the government's footprint in the housing market.
SCOTT GARRETT: Goal one is to get the taxpayers off the hook. Goal two, or part of one, is to make sure that the taxpayers never again will find themselves in this situation.
BARNEY FRANK: I think they should be abolished. The only question is, what do you put in their place?
KEITH: That was, in order of appearance, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, Republican Congressman Scott Garrett and Congressman Barney Frank, a Democrat. So, we've got the Obama administration, an influential Republican and an equally influential Democrat and they all seem to agree. But, wait, what did Barney Frank say at the end there?
FRANK: The only question is, what do you put in their place?
KEITH: For decades, the U.S. government implicitly stood behind Fannie and Freddie. Now it's explicit. The question really is, in the future, do we need the government involved in mortgages? And if so, how much? Dwight Jaffee says, not at all. He's a professor at U.C. Berkeley who studies mortgage markets.
DWIGHT JAFFEE: If I were here telling you why we should get the government out of the beer business, you wouldn't be very surprised. In fact, you would say, well, why would we ever get the government in the beer market? Mortgage markets lending is the same story. Why would you ever want the government in it?
KEITH: Jaffee points to European countries with better home ownership rates than here in the U.S. who don't have the government involved in mortgages. What he's saying seems so incredibly reasonable, and yet, not many people agree.
LAWRENCE YUN: So, let's make it very clear. Let's have a government role right at the front.
KEITH: This group benefited from the existence of Fannie and Freddie. Yun and the Realtors are now pushing to replace them with a new government agency that does a lot of the same stuff. And they're using the same arguments they used in support of Fannie and Freddie. Housing isn't like beer. Yun says it's special.
YUN: It's just ingrained in the American mindset to say, I own a property, I own piece of America. I think that's all good for the country.
KEITH: Yun and a lot of others warn if the government pulls out of housing too far, loans will be harder to get, interest rates will go up. Without a government guarantee, all those pension funds and foreign governments who lent me money to buy my house won't want to anymore. People like this guy.
SCOTT SIMON: We typically are one of the largest holders in the world of agency mortgages.
KEITH: This is Scott Simon. He works at a money management firm called PIMCO. He buys a ton of the mortgage-backed securities created by Fannie and Freddie. If the government backing goes away, he says a lot of investors wouldn't take the risk on borrowers like me.
SIMON: If it's not the banks, if it's not money managers and it's not overseas, who exactly is going to be this magic pool that takes a trillion dollars of mortgage origination every year and puts it on their balance sheets? And the answer is, we don't know.
KEITH: But to Bethany McLean, that starts looking a whole lot like a new reconstituted version of Fannie and Freddie. McLean is co-author of "All the Devils Are Here," a book about the financial crisis. She says Fannie and Freddie started out small and limited, too.
BETHANY MCLEAN: You can put all the safeguards you want in place, you can do this with the best of intentions and everybody will say, oh, we're going to do this so that it's safe this time. So that these companies with the government guarantee aren't taking that much risk. And it will start off that way.
KEITH: And then inevitably, McLean says, we'll forget what it was like before. The housing market will get better. The companies will start taking more risks.
MCLEAN: And we will be right back where we were before. So, the most likely solution is really a re-creation of Fannie and Freddie, except everybody will pretend that it's not.
GARRETT: And that would be tragic.
KEITH: Congressman Scott Garrett is a Republican from New Jersey, and he's head of a subcommittee that will play a critical role in deciding whether McLean ends up being right.
GARRETT: Every day that we don't wind them down and eliminate them and end them totally means it's another day that they are guaranteeing another mortgage that effectively could fail the next day that you and I have to pay taxes for. We have to stop the bleeding and not allow it to reconfigure to a day that it could start bleeding all over again.
KEITH: Tamara Keith, NPR News, Washington.
BLOCK: You can hear Planet Money's entire series on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac at NPR.org/money.
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