Weekly Wrap: "Lying In Wait." It's Friday: Sam's feeling like a rockstar with New York Times reporter Caitlin Dickerson (@itscaitlinhd) and host of 'The News' from BuzzFeed, Julia Furlan (@juliastmi). They're discussing Michael Cohen, family separation, and another #MeToo story, but one with the usual gender roles reversed, plus a call to a Catholic mother processing the recent report of sexual abuse and cover ups in the church. Tweet @NPRItsBeenaMin with feels or email samsanders@npr.org.
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Weekly Wrap: "Lying In Wait."

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Weekly Wrap: "Lying In Wait."

Weekly Wrap: "Lying In Wait."

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AUNT BETTY: Hey, y'all. This is Sam's Aunt Betty. This week on the show, New York Times reporter Caitlin Dickerson and the host of The News from BuzzFeed, Julia Furlan. All right - let's start the show.



Hey y'all. From NPR, I'm Sam Sanders - IT'S BEEN A MINUTE. This week, we are in, as Alicia Keys says, the concrete jungle where dreams are made of. Why did she end that sentence with a preposition?


SANDERS: I'll never know. But we're in New York - happy to be here. Betty called it - two great guests today.

DICKERSON: Thank you, Betty.

SANDERS: Caitlin Dickerson, covering immigration at The New York Times and lots of other stuff, too, and Julia Furlan, host of the BuzzFeed news podcast, which is called The News, and also supervising producer of the BuzzFeed Podsquad - glad you're here.

JULIA FURLAN: (Imitating airhorn). It's so great to be here.

SANDERS: Oh, that was nice. Do it again.

FURLAN: (Imitating airhorn).

SANDERS: That was a good one. That was a good one.

DICKERSON: Is that a requirement for the job?

FURLAN: Yes - very serious.

SANDERS: (Laughter) We also have in studio with us right now the sounds of Post Malone.


POST MALONE: (Singing) ...Trying to grab up on my pants. Hundred (expletive) in my trailer - say they ain't got a man.

SANDERS: Why are you laughing? I like this song. And this song had a big week.


SANDERS: This Post Malone song is called "Rockstar."


POST MALONE: (Singing) I been (expletive) I been popping (expletive) - man, I feel just like a rock star.

SANDERS: Every word is bleeped. But he says rock star.

FURLAN: (Laughter).

DICKERSON: There we go. There we go.

SANDERS: Anyways, I'm playing the song because this song "Rockstar" won song of the year this week at the MTV Video Music Awards - big deal, right?


SANDERS: So it was a great event for Post Malone. He performed onstage with Aerosmith at the show. He was having a great week. But then the next day, his plane got in trouble. You know about this, huh?

FURLAN: Yeah. The plane drama was wild.

SANDERS: I know.

DICKERSON: What happened?

SANDERS: So his - two of the tires blew out on the plane. And they had to have an emergency landing. But it took hours before they could emergency land and...

DICKERSON: So they were just circling?

SANDERS: They were doing something in the air for over four hours. But because Post Malone is 23, he was tweeting about the entire ordeal throughout.



SANDERS: So he tweets like, y'all, it might be an emergency. These tires went out. We're in the air. I'm scared. And instead of the Internet being a nice place...

FURLAN: No. It never is.

SANDERS: ...People on Twitter were like, we hope it crashes. Why is the Internet so mean, Julia?

FURLAN: You know, it's both things all at once. It's not a monolith. But it's usually bad immediately.

SANDERS: (Laughter).

FURLAN: Anything that happens, like, time-sensitive-wise...


FURLAN: ...It's usually bad first.

SANDERS: So poor Post Malone is in the air, not sure if you're going to get down. And everyone's tweeting at him, RIP, RIP, RIP.

FURLAN: (Laughter).

SANDERS: So he makes it down. And he is the bigger adult of this whole situation. He tweets, I landed, guys. Thank you for your prayers - can't believe how many people wished death on me on this website. But not today.

FURLAN: (Laughter).

SANDERS: Post Malone, I salute you. I'm glad you're OK. You are, dare I say, a rock star.

DICKERSON: That's how a rock star handles death threats...

SANDERS: (Laughter).

DICKERSON: ...Or death wishes.

SANDERS: Exactly, exactly.


POST MALONE: (Singing) Rock star, rock star.

SANDERS: All right - Julia and Caitlin are here with me to look back on the week of news and culture and everything else. We have a lot to talk about.

FURLAN: Oh, god. It was a week.

DICKERSON: It's been a week.

SANDERS: It was, like, seven weeks.

DICKERSON: It's been a massive week.

SANDERS: It's been a lot. Also, all you Friday listeners, I want to send you back in our feed to our latest Tuesday episode. I talked with Kari Skogland. She's one of the directors of "The Handmaid's Tale." And she tells me how she gets through being on set for some of the most difficult-to-watch scenes on TV right now. All right - let's get into it. Going to start as we always do, going to have my panelists describe their week of news in only three words. Caitlin, we're having you go first because I know that you're going to talk about something other than Michael Cohen and Paul Manafort, which I appreciate you for (laughter). Go ahead.

DICKERSON: It's my pleasure.


DICKERSON: So this week, my three words are time will tell.


DICKERSON: And journalists know that that's the way we never want to end stories. We make fun of it. And we think it's the most terrible and trite way.

SANDERS: But we just find other ways to end it that way?

DICKERSON: So we find other ways of saying time will tell.


DICKERSON: And that's what I keep doing every time I write a story about family separation.

SANDERS: Which has, like, been your issue for the last three months.

DICKERSON: For the last year, really.


DICKERSON: Up and down - and right now, there are hundreds of kids who are still in limbo whose parents were deported without them or whose parents have minor criminal records - all these designations that government lawyers used to sort of pull them out of the class of people who had to be reunited by deadlines that were imposed by a federal court in San Diego. As a result, we have no idea what's going to happen with these kids.

SANDERS: How many kids do we know it to be right now?

DICKERSON: It fluctuates because some have gone back by now. But it's still several hundred children.

SANDERS: Wow. And this is all a result of the Trump administration's...

DICKERSON: ...Family separation policy...

SANDERS: ...Which is supposed to be this deterrent.

DICKERSON: Right - exactly.


DICKERSON: It was supposed to deter people from coming to the United States by basically, you know, threatening them - that if they do, they were going to have their kids taken away. And that's what happened for a lot of people. And there are just a lot of kids who really - even after this judge tried to force the reunification - fell through the cracks and now are stuck. And only time will tell what's going to happen to them.

SANDERS: So from what I read about this, it seems as if when the Trump administration put this policy in place, they had a plan to separate the families but no plan to reunite them.

DICKERSON: That's exactly the case.

SANDERS: In one court proceeding, they said that the ACLU should do it. Are they any closer now to having a plan for this? Or is what we see now execution of their plan?

DICKERSON: So now, just as you said, the ACLU and other advocacy groups and just law firms who have stood up and said, we want to help - they're taking control of how to deal...

SANDERS: Really?

DICKERSON: ...With these other kids because the government just sort of gave it up to them. Like, it was going to take too long. It was going to be too difficult. They had people raising their hands, saying they wanted to do it. And I think at this point, the advocates and, you know, the people who were suing the government didn't really believe that it was going to happen in good faith or happen quickly. And so they were, quite honestly, happy to take on the work. But it is really shocking that after all of - after everything we've been through with the family separation...

SANDERS: Oh, yeah.

DICKERSON: ...Policy, the government is not going to do the hard work of reconnecting.

SANDERS: Also, just the headline - Trump administration partners with ACLU on anything.

FURLAN: I mean...

DICKERSON: Well, that's...

SANDERS: Isn't it something?

FURLAN: That's not the Trump - I mean, I don't think the Trump administration necessarily wants to do that. There's a really wonderful episode of The Daily. They did a two-part series on family separation this week. Caitlin, I'm...

SANDERS: Caitlin's in it. You can check it.

FURLAN: You know, of course.

DICKERSON: Thank you.

FURLAN: But there is this one image that really stuck with me, which is that, at the end, it's following, you know, a group of children. And they're leaving the courtroom in downtown Manhattan. The children, the lawyers, the advocates - all this. And there's, like, a pallet of water - just, like, of bottled water. And Annie Correal, the reporter, says basically like, this is all that the government gave them. This is it. And it's...


FURLAN: ...Just like, a bunch of bottled water. Meanwhile, everybody has, like, snacks and toys and paperwork and blah...

DICKERSON: Backpacks and...

FURLAN: ...Blah, blah.

DICKERSON: ...School stuff.

FURLAN: Yeah, all of that stuff. And I think that that really symbolizes a lot.

SANDERS: You guys, I have three words.

FURLAN: What are they?

SANDERS: Lying in wait. And they are about Mr. Cohen and Mr. Manafort. I...

DICKERSON: Ooh. How to condense it down.

SANDERS: ...Really wish - if you have the last name Manafort, you should pronounce it as...

FURLAN: (Imitating Italian accent) Manaforte (ph).

SANDERS: ...Audaciously as...

DICKERSON: (Imitating Italian accent) Manaforte.

SANDERS: ...Possible. Yes.


SANDERS: (Imitating Italian accent) Manaforte. So I want to talk about how Democrats are responding and faux responding to all the news of this week. So Michael Cohen, Donald Trump's private attorney, former Trump campaign chair Paul Manafort - they are both facing prison time. And Michael Cohen in his plea deal - he basically said, I broke the law at the direction of my boss, who was a federal candidate. That is some Watergate-level stuff. But I don't bring up lying in wait to talk about that. I want to talk about how Democrats are playing this. They're just chomping at the bit, you guys.


SANDERS: They are just ready, ready, ready, ready, ready to see all of this keep moving forward. But the one word that they will not say is impeachment. It's really quite interesting.

FURLAN: Interesting.

SANDERS: Several stories this week where Nancy Pelosi and the rest of them have told Dems up and down, do not use the word impeachment, whereas Republicans are using that a lot - saying, if you vote for Dems, they'll impeach this guy.

DICKERSON: I just wonder, as somebody who doesn't cover Congress, you know, are the Democrats sitting in secret backroom bars and meeting and coming up with a master plan? Or is it a lot more disorganized, and people are just nervous, and they know they shouldn't use the I word, but they don't know what they should do instead?


FURLAN: I have a secret conspiracy theory, which is that, like, the Republicans are, like, on some sort of secret email chain. And they are like, all aligned with like, all of their words and their concepts. And the Democrats are just like, how do I do this?

SANDERS: Oh, yeah.


FURLAN: And they are really not aligned.

SANDERS: Yeah. But what I find really interesting is how they are actually preparing all of these contingency plans to get ready for Mueller dropping some other shoes.

DICKERSON: Oh, really?

SANDERS: They won't talk about it, but there's, like, these secret plans. So...


DICKERSON: Interesting.

SANDERS: ...All of these liberal groups are basically making plans on how to protest should Donald Trump pardon people involved in this or fire someone like Mueller, right?


SANDERS: So moveon.org, this big leftist group - they already have a plan called the Mueller Firing Rapid Response. If any of the key figures - Rosenstein, Jeff Sessions, whoever - are fired, they have actions planned. They say if the actions are triggered before 2 p.m. local time, events will begin at 5 p.m. local time.


SANDERS: They say if actions are triggered after 2 p.m. local time, events will begin at noon local time the following day. They're, like...

FURLAN: The specifics.

SANDERS: ...Ready, ready, ready.

DICKERSON: Wow, yeah.

SANDERS: Yeah. And like, you see this with Democrats, too. They're already drafting up language to craft bills to protect all of Mueller's information should Mueller be fired.

DICKERSON: Interesting.

SANDERS: Like, seeing what Dems and the left are doing right now, it's like when you have a friend who thinks they're about to be, I guess, proposed to.

FURLAN: (Laughter).

SANDERS: And the...

FURLAN: You are so right about this.

SANDERS: ...Person hasn't asked them yet.


SANDERS: But they're still picking out the venue.

FURLAN: They're getting...


FURLAN: ...Their nails done.

SANDERS: They're still...

DICKERSON: Getting the dress ready.

SANDERS: ...Doing wine samples.

FURLAN: (Laughter).

DICKERSON: Yeah, yeah.

SANDERS: But you're like, they haven't proposed yet. And the person's like, they might.

DICKERSON: Well, I need to have my nails done when they do.

SANDERS: Yes. The Dems are getting their nails done.

FURLAN: (Laughter).

SANDERS: They're so ready. So they are...

FURLAN: In conclusion.

SANDERS: Yeah, so...

DICKERSON: Listen, you got to stay ready.

SANDERS: ...That's why my three words are lying in wait.

FURLAN: Lying in wait.

SANDERS: Yeah. Julia, what are your three words?

FURLAN: My three words are not her too, which is sort of like what was going around on Twitter in relationship to the Asia Argento news. Asia Argento is an Italian actress who was really at the forefront of the #MeToo movement. She was one of the people who was like, really like, leading the charge.

SANDERS: She had allegations...

FURLAN: Against Harvey Weinstein...


FURLAN: ...Yes. And she gave the speech at Cannes that was like very, you know, emotional. And everybody was like, sort of like, oh, Asia Argento. Wow. So this has been a week of sort of like - I felt an almost, like, vertigo about it...


FURLAN: ...Where it's just, like, this pit of your stomach. Jimmy Bennett is an actor who was in a movie with Asia Argento when he was 7 years old, which is how they met. And basically, it came out this week that Jimmy received a payment of $380,000 from Asia Argento related to an alleged assault that he experienced when he was 17 and Asia Argento was 37.

SANDERS: And this was...

FURLAN: In 2013.

SANDERS: ...In California...

FURLAN: Yeah, in...

SANDERS: ...Where the age...

FURLAN: ...California, where...

SANDERS: ...Of consent...

FURLAN: ...The age of consent is 18. And he was 17 in 2013 when it happened. And, you know, ever since then, there were a lot of immediate questions, like, what does this mean for the #MeToo movement? What are we going to do? Because, you know, a predator - at first it was just like, everyone is good, and everyone is bad. And, you know, as all movements go on, it gets really messy and complicated.

SANDERS: Well, and it's like - I saw one headline where it basically was, like, this case proves that women are human, too.


FURLAN: I mean...

DICKERSON: ...I'm sorry, Julia.

FURLAN: ...No, please, go.

DICKERSON: Just was going to say that I hated that headline because, of course, sexual assault is not human. You know, when you say...

SANDERS: It's mostly male. It's mostly men doing it.

FURLAN: Almost.

DICKERSON: Well, but also it's like, when people use that phrase like, oh, you're human, it's because, you know, everybody tells a white lie every once in a while.

FURLAN: Exactly.

DICKERSON: I don't think sexual assault is quite considered, you know, just like - it happens.

SANDERS: I mean, do you think, Julia, that this changes the movement?

FURLAN: I don't think it can. If you talk to - every single woman I know has been dehumanized because of their sexuality in some way. Like, every single one - 100 percent of women. And if you take this one sort of, like, reverse-gender sexual assault situation and decide to, like, sweepingly discount these very true, very constant, very culturally present stories, then you're not - you're doing a disservice to everyone - both the victims and the perpetrators because the perpetrators of sexual assault don't have a face. They don't have a gender. They don't have anything - that you just need to believe victims.


FURLAN: That is the most important thing.

SANDERS: What has she said about it?

DICKERSON: She's denied it.

FURLAN: She denied it.

DICKERSON: She sort of said he was suffering psychologically and financially at the time. And we just wanted to help him.

FURLAN: Yeah. That was her sort of line of defense. But I just hope that people are able to sit with the nuance and still talk about the important facts and the important, like, changes that need to be made.


FURLAN: Somebody can be both a victim and a perpetrator. Violence is very complicated and difficult to understand. It's hard.

SANDERS: It is hard.


SANDERS: Yeah. Coming up, we're going to talk with a member of the Catholic Church on how she's dealing with the latest reports of abuse by priests. You're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE. We'll be right back.


SANDERS: We are back. You're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR, the show where we catch up on the week that was. I'm Sam Sanders here with two great guests today - Julia Furlan, head of audio at BuzzFeed and also host of a podcast about the news called The News.


SANDERS: I love that. I love that.

DICKERSON: I like it, too.


FURLAN: (Laughter) It's certainly simple. It does the job.

SANDERS: It does the job.


SANDERS: Also Caitlin Dickerson, covering immigration for The New York Times. Glad you're here.

DICKERSON: Thank you.

SANDERS: You got to go back to work as soon as we're done here, right?


SANDERS: (Laughter) OK, well, we'll move on. All right. Before we get to the next segment, quick question. Have either of you ever used those rentable, dockless, motorized scooters?

FURLAN: I have not. And I've never even seen one, actually.

SANDERS: Really? They're all over LA.

FURLAN: I know. I've seen them in pictures. Yeah, I would also - I'm a bike girl myself.

SANDERS: I hear you. What about you, Caitlin?

DICKERSON: I would do it. I have, and I did see them all over - like, littering the streets of LA when I was there a couple of weeks ago, and it looks bad.

SANDERS: Yeah. I'm bringing up scooters this week because there's a news report out from BuzzFeed...

FURLAN: Indeed.

SANDERS: ...All about how scooter use is leading to more doctors and emergency room visits.

FURLAN: Yeah, it's not great.

SANDERS: People are crashing on those things.

FURLAN: And they're tripping over them.

DICKERSON: Electronic scooters?


DICKERSON: I wonder what the age of these people are because on my street in Brooklyn - oh, my God. It's swarming with babies on scooters.

SANDERS: (Laughter).

DICKERSON: Swarming - like, you - I can't walk to get a freaking bagel or to pick up my dry cleaning.

SANDERS: I can't get a freaking bagel.


DICKERSON: I was trying to get my dry cleaning this morning, and I almost got mowed over by, like, a dozen 4-year-olds on scooters...

SANDERS: Four-year-olds?

DICKERSON: ...And some of them - they're tiny. And some of them can push themselves like with their tiny, little feet.

SANDERS: (Laughter).

DICKERSON: But a lot of them - they have both feet on the scooter, and then their parent is just pushing their back.

SANDERS: Not the motorized scooters - just, like, scooter...

DICKERSON: No, not the motorized scooters. No, no, no, no.

SANDERS: OK. All right. So scooters in general - bad.


SANDERS: But these motorized ones that you can rent - apparently, they're sending folks of the ER. It's so bad that Catherine Lerer - she's a personal injury attorney - she told BuzzFeed, quote, "I think there's blood on the hands of every city that allows them to operate, knowing how many riders and pedestrians are being injured." Blood on the hands.

FURLAN: So metal.

DICKERSON: What kind of injuries?

DICKERSON: What kind of injuries...

FURLAN: So metal.


DICKERSON: What kind of injuries are these people having?

SANDERS: You know, just banged up...

FURLAN: Broken ankles.

SANDERS: ...Missing a tooth...


SANDERS: ...Just falling.

DICKERSON: ...Like, how do you fall...

FURLAN: Teeth. Yeah.


FURLAN: Because people are - basically, like, there are two kinds of injuries.

DICKERSON: You hit a bump, and you fly?

FURLAN: Like, the people who are riding on the scooters and getting injured. And then there are people who are tripping over them because they're just, like, laying askew on the thing.


DICKERSON: That makes sense to me. I definitely saw that in Los Angeles. That's interesting - like, not only does it look really terrible, but hello...

SANDERS: They're dangerous.

DICKERSON: ...People just trip over it.

SANDERS: Although, I also think that there is a secret agenda of all press to just shade the hell out of scooters. I don't know what it is, but there's never been a positive headline about these scooters.

FURLAN: (Laughter) You're right.

SANDERS: All right, guys. Now it's time for segment that we call Long Distance....


SANDERS: ...Where we call up someone somewhere in the world and talk with them about the news in their neck of the woods. This week, people are still dealing with the news that came out of a grand jury investigation in Pennsylvania. That grand jury uncovered widespread sexual abuse of children. The report said that more than 300 priests abused more than 1,000 children for several decades. I mean, it's just a sad, sad report. And the report also found that the church consistently covered this all up. They would settle with victims out of court. They would relocate priests who were known abusers.

We heard from a listener to this show. Her name is Megan Vera. She reached out to us and wanted to talk about all this. She's Catholic. She is a mother of two young children. And she lives about five minutes away from the Pennsylvania border in Maryland. So this story is touching her and hitting her hard. Also, Megan has a really deep relationship with the church - maybe deeper than most folks do - because she teaches theology. She's an adjunct professor at Mount St. Mary's University. Of course, in this call, she's not speaking for the school. She's speaking for herself. But her point of view is probably very, very common right now amongst a lot of Catholics who have big questions about their church. So I called up Megan. She's from Emmitsburg, Md. Here's our chat.

Hey, Megan, you there?

MEGAN VERA: Yes. Hey, Sam.

SANDERS: How are you?

VERA: Good, good.

SANDERS: So this report now out of Pennsylvania has been out for a week - a bit over a week. But save for the severity of this report, this isn't new for the Catholic Church.

VERA: Right.

SANDERS: You know, there were some reports like this as early as 15-plus years ago. So when you heard about this one, were you surprised?

VERA: I know I shouldn't have been, right? But for some reason, it really sideswiped me. It hit me pretty hard.

SANDERS: Why do you think that is?

VERA: On a personal note, I'm a mother now...


VERA: ...When I wasn't, you know, in 2002. I was just a teenager. But also, just as a member of the church, I think it hit me harder this time because I felt like we should know better by now. Like, we should've taken care of this the first time in a...

SANDERS: We being the church.

VERA: Right, right. Like, we as a church should've handled this already. And if this is happening, you know, all around in Pennsylvania, that gives me every reason to think this could be happening all around me. I mean, the people that I know, like the priests that I know and the bishops I know I love and trust. But I'm sure that the members of the parishes in Pennsylvania felt that way, too, you know? So it's just so - among the faithful, we are deeply angry. We want this to stop now. We want the priests and the bishops who participated in this - we want them gone.


VERA: Like, we are not OK with this. And I just - I'm trying to figure out, how can we get the hierarchy to see how angry we are?

SANDERS: Yeah. How have you dealt with all of this with your kids? I mean, they're very, very young, but...

VERA: Yeah.

SANDERS: ...I'm sure you're wondering about how to deal with this with them.

VERA: Yes. My husband and I are already just really highly sensitive about making sure that we have conversations, even with our 3-year-old now, about what is, you know, appropriate behavior between him and other adults. And if he ever feels uncomfortable, you know, what - how he should react to that and how he can talk to us about that. And all of this news has reminded me that a part of how I talked to him about that now even has to be saying, no matter who it is, you know, you can talk to us, and we'll take your side. You know, we're with you.

SANDERS: Are there any things that you used to feel comfortable doing in the church that you're not going to do anymore?

VERA: Yeah. Something I've always been careful about is almost never leaving my children with other people. It has definitely brought conversations between my husband and I about, OK, well, are we going to let our kids be altar servers if they want to the altar servers some day?


VERA: How are we going to send our kids into confessionals someday? You know, like, when they have their first confession - these things that we just have to be thinking about. And to be honest, it really hurts that I have to be thinking about that because the church has been such a source of light and life and joy for me. And to have this kind of - can I say evil? - and darkness...

SANDERS: Yeah. I would say evil, yeah.

VERA: ...In a place that has been such an important and life-giving place for me is just - is really heartbreaking.

SANDERS: So I hear you saying that, in your gut, you're a little worried about sending your children to do certain things at church because there's a risk that a predator could be there. And I guess in my mind, what I'm asking is, well, if you had a grocery store that you went to a lot, but you found out that store managers throughout the store chain were molesting kids, you'd stop shopping there?

VERA: Yes.

SANDERS: Why not, if you have this fear now - why not just leave the church?

VERA: Yeah. I hear you, Sam. I actually chose to become a member of the Catholic Church. Like, I didn't - I wasn't raised in the church. I converted to Catholicism when I was a teenager. And I entered the church because I experienced the ministry of Jesus through the ministry of the church in a really profound way.

SANDERS: What was that way?

VERA: Yeah. I was invited by friends to come to the church and to participate in some youth ministry events. And I did. And at first, I was actually pretty weirded out because there are rituals, you know? And there are bells. And there's incense. But what I found was that - especially through the sacraments and the Eucharist - the Catholic Church believes that it's the real presence of Jesus with you. And I actually experienced - like, I felt that it in a kind of tangible way...

SANDERS: What did it feel like?

VERA: ...That I haven't anywhere else. It feels like if your eyes are closed, but you know there's somebody in the room. And it's someone that you know and love and knows and loves you. And I can't turn away from that. I can't. And I want to - I actually want to fight for that.

SANDERS: Yeah. What has your church, your parish done in response to this report?

VERA: So when I went to Mass this past Sunday, everybody - as everybody was filing in, like, we were all kind of looking at each other. It was kind of quieter than usual in the church as everybody was coming in. And I think we were all wondering, like, is our pastor going to say something? Is he going to face this? Is he going to pull it into the light and talk about it? And I was so relieved he, you know - in the first few minutes of the Mass, of the service, he was just saying, clearly, we are here today to pray for the victims of this abuse and to think through and be together and heal together as we look at what - at the terrible things that these priests have done and the way that - the terrible ways that these bishops have covered it up. So - and that was what he preached on, you know, during the homily, during the sermon. And I was really grateful that he brought it into the light in the church, in our community.

SANDERS: Yeah. Yeah.

VERA: And in some ways, I wonder if that's where we have to start. And so I hope that within my parish family, within my church family, we can start to think through, how can we respond to this here...


VERA: ...And make it better and safer here?

SANDERS: I really appreciate this. I know it's a very difficult, sensitive issue to talk about. But I know you sharing your story is going to move our listeners.

VERA: Thank you for making a space for this conversation. It needs to be talked about. So thank you very much for that.

SANDERS: It most definitely does. Thank you so much for your courage.

VERA: Thank you.

SANDERS: Thanks again to listener Megan Vera from Emmitsburg, Md. Back in the studio now with Caitlin and Julia. So the pope was quiet for a few days after this report came out. But he did finally speak. He spoke earlier this week. And some parts of his letter were quite poignant. He said, quote, "We are challenged as the people of God to take on the pain of our brothers and sisters wounded in their flesh and in their spirit. If, in the past, the response was one of an omission, today we want solidarity, in the deepest and most challenging sense, to become our way of forging present and future history." But I notice with those comments, one thing he did not do was call for any specific action out of this.

VERA: Yeah.

SANDERS: He didn't name names. He didn't say all these folks are fired. Calling for patience and for penance and for prayer and for fasting - it's a little thoughts-and-prayers-y (ph).

FURLAN: One of my best friends is - lives in Pennsylvania and...

SANDERS: Really?

FURLAN: ...Is part of the diocese that - yeah...

SANDERS: Part of the diocese?

FURLAN: Yeah. She's like - she's - that's the church that they go to - is part of the diocese.

SANDERS: So she knows some of folks that were caught up in this.

FURLAN: The guy's dead - the one that was part of their church who had abused kids. But I've been talking to her a lot. They didn't go to church last week.


DICKERSON: My mom didn't, either. And...

SANDERS: She's Catholic?

DICKERSON: She's Catholic. And also...

SANDERS: Were you raised Catholic?


SANDERS: What'd your mom say?

DICKERSON: She just said she's struggling. And she's having a really hard time. And she hasn't gone to church. And she doesn't know when she will again. And she wants to understand better how we got here because I think what's becoming more and more clear to Catholics is how the structure of the church was sort of built to allow for this kind of thing.

SANDERS: And the pope seemed to address that when he finally spoke about it...


SANDERS: ...Because for a while it was, like, oh, there's just some bad apples. But now there's this acceptance, I think, that there was a structure that allowed this to go on for a long time.

FURLAN: And a playbook...

DICKERSON: A playbook.

FURLAN: ...A playbook that said, if you discover abuse, then you shuffle the person around. It specifically, in some ways, said, like, you know, don't...


FURLAN: Don't bring shame to the Catholic Church as sort of, like, the main point. And that was held above believing the victims...



FURLAN: ...Or taking action.



SANDERS: It's time for a break. You're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. We'll be right back.


SANDERS: Dating has never been more complicated. Trust me. I know. But our friends over at the WNYC show Death, Sex & Money - they have been spending their summer trying to figure it all out. Host Anna Sale has been checking in with a group of listeners as they date in real time - swiping and ghosting, navigating open relationships and consents and, of course, falling hard. You can binge the entire summer of episodes at deathsexmoney.org/hotdates. It's a great website. And you can look out for the final episode of the series on September 5. They will check in with the summer daters to hear where they've landed. And you'll also hear some terrible dating stories that other listeners were inspired to send in. All right. Again, find the series at deathsexmoney.org/hotdates.


SANDERS: You're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR, the show where we catch up on the week that was. I'm Sam Sanders here with two guests - Caitlin Dickerson, who covers immigration for The New York Times just down the road. How far was your walk here this - today?

DICKERSON: I didn't go to work before. I went - came straight here...

SANDERS: (Gasping) Oh.

DICKERSON: I WFH'd this morning.

SANDERS: Nice, working from home. And Julia Furlan, head of audio at BuzzFeed and host of the BuzzFeed news podcast called...



FURLAN: The News.

SANDERS: The News. You guys, it's time for my favorite game...


KANDI BURRUSS: Who had been saying that?

SANDERS: ...Who Said That.


PORSHA WILLIAMS: Who said that?

KENYA MOORE: Who said that?

SANDERS: Oh, this is your first time playing Who Said That.

FURLAN: I've been playing in my head for so long.

SANDERS: (Laughter). Caitlin's an all - have you won when you played before?

DICKERSON: I won last time...


DICKERSON: ...Which is shocking...


DICKERSON: ...Because my knowledge of pop culture is abysmal.

SANDERS: You guys know how this game works. I share a quote from the week. You have to guess who said that or at least get close, get the story it's referring to. Of course, the winner gets absolutely nothing, but it's still going to be fun, OK?


SANDERS: You ready?


SANDERS: First quote. "Queen of the week may go to Harriet Tubman."


SANDERS: "Had she just sat there and ate her rice, your history would've been a lot less triumphant." What famous rapper was out here comparing their struggle to Harriet Tubman's this week...

FURLAN: Oh, my God.

DICKERSON: Who in God's name...

FURLAN: I kind of want to say - I - I'm - this is a total guess on my part. Is it Azealia Banks?


SANDERS: It's another female rapper.


SANDERS: Another female rapper. Just start throwing out names...

FURLAN: Nicki?




FURLAN: Nicki...

SANDERS: Nicki Minaj has been on a tear all week because her newest album "Queen"...

FURLAN: Oh, right.

DICKERSON: Of course.

SANDERS: ...Came out at No. 2 on the Billboard charts, not No. 1. She was mad about that...



SANDERS: ...And she says that the way that Spotify prioritizes streams and plays and whatever led to her being undercounted for her streaming numbers and...

DICKERSON: Much like Harriet Tubman...


DICKERSON: ...Also struggled in her life.

SANDERS: So she basically was saying that her...

FURLAN: Yeah, no.

DICKERSON: Yeah. No, honey.

SANDERS: She was saying on her Beats radio show - she said her struggle...


SANDERS: ...With Spotify was just like Harriet Tubman's struggle with...


SANDERS: ...I don't know - the institution of slavery (laughter)?

FURLAN: I hate this.

SANDERS: Also, let Harriet make a rap album. It's probably...


SANDERS: ...Going to be better than Nicki's latest one.


FURLAN: Agreed.

SANDERS: Agreed. Next quote. And you can just get the topic of this one.


SANDERS: "Pure poison, one of the worst foods you can eat." There's a food that's been in the news this week that has been getting a lot of pushback on its health claims.

FURLAN: Oh, is it coconut oil?




FURLAN: I found this - mmm.

SANDERS: Did you find it suspect?

FURLAN: I was - let people put coconut oil in their stuff.

SANDERS: This quote is from a Harvard professor named Karin Michels. She had this speech on coconut oil that went viral in the last week. It got, like, a million views.


SANDERS: She basically says that we've all been lied to by Big Coconut (ph), that coconut oil is not a health food at all. She says that it's bad or worse than butter and lard because it has more saturated fat.

DICKERSON: Well, butter and lard are both great.

SANDERS: Not ingesting in large quantities.


SANDERS: They taste great. Why do we think it's good? Because - have you seen it? It doesn't...

FURLAN: Doesn't look like coconut oil?

SANDERS: It doesn't look healthy. It looks like lard.

FURLAN: It's perfect. It's good the way it is. I have two...

DICKERSON: There's something in it...

FURLAN: ...I have three kinds of coconut oil in my home, currently. I feel...

SANDERS: Oh, do you eat it or just apply it to your skin...

FURLAN: I can't eat it. It doesn't agree with me. I can't...


FURLAN: Like, if I eat it, it does not work.

DICKERSON: Wow. And you are out here defending it. But you actually can't even digest it...

FURLAN: I will defend it. Yeah...

SANDERS: As a body butter?

FURLAN: As a - yeah. I, like, use it on my body, whatevs...

DICKERSON: Maybe we should just put it on our bodies...

SANDERS: It'll be on your skin?

FURLAN: Yeah, on our bodies...


DICKERSON: ...And maybe not in our bodies...

FURLAN: Exactly.

DICKERSON: ...As much.

SANDERS: Aretha Franklin used to swallow a little bit of olive oil before she sang to lubricate the vocal chords.

FURLAN: That makes sense.


FURLAN: That seems logical.

SANDERS: Yeah...

FURLAN: I'm going to say yes to that.

SANDERS: Yes. OK. Yeah.

DICKERSON: Yeah. Support.

FURLAN: Anything Aretha did is fine, TBH.


DICKERSON: We're behind it.


DICKERSON: Doesn't matter.

SANDERS: Yeah. Julia, you're up 2-zip in a game that has three questions. I'm not going to say you won already. I will say this last one will be worth three points, so Caitlin...

DICKERSON: Can we do Daily Double? OK.


FURLAN: Yes. Do it.


SANDERS: All right. Here we go.

DICKERSON: ...Daily triple.

SANDERS: All right. Ready?


SANDERS: The quote is, "Sometimes, we see cats and dogs but never goats."

FURLAN: Oh, my God.

SANDERS: Go through, like, trending in New York this week for a big reason...

FURLAN: Oh, right. The goats...

SANDERS: This is...

FURLAN: There were goats...

SANDERS: Where were they?

FURLAN: ...Running in Iowa?


SANDERS: No. It...

FURLAN: There were goats. Were they...

SANDERS: There were...

FURLAN: ...In Prospect Park?

SANDERS: They were, like, even in a more New York place.

FURLAN: Times Square.

DICKERSON: Empire State Building.

FURLAN: Empire State Building. Oh, my God.

SANDERS: How do you...

FURLAN: What are you doing?

SANDERS: ...Commute...

DICKERSON: Brooklyn Bridge?

SANDERS: ...In New York?

FURLAN: Brooklyn Bridge?

DICKERSON: The Manhattan Bridge?

SANDERS: No. How do you commute...

DICKERSON: The subway.

SANDERS: ...In New York? Yes.

FURLAN: Oh, my God.

DICKERSON: There were goats in the subway.



DICKERSON: It was commissioner of the MTA.

SANDERS: It was commanding officer of the Transit District 34. We'll give it to you, Caitlin.

FURLAN: I'm great (cheering).

SANDERS: (Laughter).

FURLAN: Caitlin, congratulations...

SANDERS: I'm going to say...

FURLAN: ...On this important win. I cannot believe that I didn't get that one.

SANDERS: Y'all didn't see this?

FURLAN: I'm not the GOAT. I am not the greatest of all time.

SANDERS: (Laughter).

FURLAN: That's what GOAT is.

SANDERS: There were goats - two goats on the inline subway tracks this week wandering the tracks.


SANDERS: The official twitter for MTA - this is the Metropolitan Transit Authority - they tweeted, two very baaaaad (ph) boys...

FURLAN: Oh, my God.

SANDERS: ...Because New York. But then - because New York - Jon Stewart, hometown hero, rescued them.


SANDERS: He picked them up from like, the office they were having to chill at.

FURLAN: (Laughter).

SANDERS: And he took them to the shelter.



SANDERS: He's a stand-up dude.

DICKERSON: Hero. He was just like, who's taking care of the goats? Like, where...

SANDERS: He took care of the goats.

DICKERSON: ...Are they going to go tonight? Wow.

SANDERS: If you saw goats on the subway, what would you - I would not run towards them.

FURLAN: I would 100 percent run towards them. It's a goat.

SANDERS: (Laughter).

FURLAN: You're going to see it once in your life.

DICKERSON: They're cute.

FURLAN: There...


FURLAN: ...Are lots of things that happen on the subway.

SANDERS: Some of them are aggressive.

DICKERSON: Oh, a goat in the subway once in your life. I was like, I've seen goats...

FURLAN: Yeah. (Laughter).

DICKERSON: ...A few times.

FURLAN: No, on the subway.

DICKERSON: I don't like to brag, but...

FURLAN: The subway is a place where you have to capture every tiny, little droplet of joy that you can.

SANDERS: No. The subway is a place - whenever I'm in the city, I spend the whole week being like, I hope those kids that dance don't come on my train because they make me so nervous.

DICKERSON: Showtime.

SANDERS: The Showtime kids.

FURLAN: I'm pro-Showtime.

SANDERS: I'm like, you're going to hit somebody.

FURLAN: I'm pro-Showtime.

SANDERS: They're going to hit somebody.

FURLAN: I gave five bucks to the Showtime dancers...

DICKERSON: Oh, my gosh.


FURLAN: ...Last week. They were so good. They were really good at, like...

SANDERS: But their feet are right in front of your face.

DICKERSON: It's so dangerous. I don't want them to get hurt...

FURLAN: I don't want me to get hurt.

DICKERSON: ...But they did not look like they were going to get hurt.

SANDERS: I don't want me to get hurt.


SANDERS: Let me go to Cirque du Soleil for that. Anyways...

FURLAN: You're right. You're right.

SANDERS: Well, I tell you what. Our listeners won today...

FURLAN: They did.

SANDERS: ...Regardless of who we deem the winner of this game.

DICKERSON: Yes, they did.

SANDERS: It was a fun little bit of audio. All right. Now it's time to end the show as we do every week. We ask our listeners to share with us the best thing that happened to them all week. We encourage folks to brag. They do. Brent, hit the tape.

NIKKI: Hey, Sam. This is Nikki (ph) from California. And the best thing that has happened to me all week is that my friends have come from all corners of the country to celebrate my birthday this weekend. And the second-best thing that could happen to me this week is if this played on your podcast on Friday, which is on my actual birthday.


SANDERS: (Laughter).

UNIDENTIFIED CROWD: (Chanting) Play it. (Cheering)

NIKKI: Thanks, Sam. We all love your podcast.

CAITLIN: Hi, Sam. This is Caitlin (ph) calling from Denver, Colo. And the best part of my week was that I got to go camping with my dog, my friends and their dogs in Buena Vista, Colo.

SAMANTHA: Best thing that happened to me this week was I picked out my wedding gown.

GRACE: I successfully paid off the rest of my student loans.

BRIAN: After four years of being out of education, I'm back as a high-school math teacher. And it is so fun to be thinking and talking about math again. And I can't wait to do it with classrooms full of new students.

JENNIFER: Hey, Sam. It's Jennifer (ph). The best thing that's happened to me this week is that we accomplished the miraculous feat of engineering of getting everything packed into the car that my daughter needs her freshman year of college. While we're away, our other daughter will leave for her sophomore year. So I've warned them that it's my prerogative to shed some tears, but I'll try not to be too embarrassing.

CHARLIE: Hey, Sam. This is Charlie (ph) from Richmond, Va. And the best thing that happened to me this week was that I ran a mile from my house to the bakery in my neighborhood. It was special because that happened to be the bakery I used to walk to every day during chemotherapy in order to stay active. What a difference a year can make. Hope you're doing well and that your week was good, too.

BRIAN: Thanks for the show.

GRACE: Thanks.

NIKKI: Thanks.

CHARLIE: See you later.


SANDERS: Oh, man. Charlie, I'm happy for you.


SANDERS: I'm happy for all of them.

FURLAN: Yeah, Charlie. Everybody.

SANDERS: Many thanks to all the voices you heard there - Nikki and all of her friends, Caitlin, Samantha (ph), Grace (ph), Brian (ph) Jennifer, Charlie - we're glad to hear that you're doing well.


SANDERS: We listen to all of these that come in. You can email me the best part of your week, in any week, at any point throughout the week at samsanders@npr.org - samsanders@npr.org. Many thanks to two of the best parts of my week, my guests - Julia Furlan, head of audio at BuzzFeed, Caitlin Dickerson covering immigration at The New York Times. And, I guess, thanks to Post Malone...

DICKERSON: Thanks, Post Malone.

FURLAN: Thanks, Post Malone.

SANDERS: ...For never giving up.

FURLAN: Has he landed yet?

SANDERS: (Laughter).

DICKERSON: For living another day.

SANDERS: Living another day (laughter). Post Malone, we salute you. The show was produced this week by Brent Baughman and Kumari Devarajan. Steve Nelson is our director of programming. We had editing from Jeff Rogers and Jordana Hochman. Our big boss is NPR's VP of Programming, Anya Grundmann. Listeners, refresh your feed Tuesday morning from my chat with Syd. She is an R&B singer that you should get to know. She's great. She does her own solo work. She's also making really great stuff right now with her band The Internet. They have a new album out, been playing it nonstop the last few weeks. We talk about her album and how she is kind of rewriting the playbook on what it means to be a queer artist today. Also note - we're off next Friday. It's Labor Day weekend. People are doing things. I'll be officiating my first wedding.


FURLAN: Wow, what a lucky couple.

SANDERS: Well, I'm lucky to be able to do it. As I'm gone that weekend, we're going to have a special episode of our show with conversations that I had with Brian Tyree Henry, who plays Paper Boi on "Atlanta," and with Rachel Brosnahan, who is the lead of one of my favorite shows, "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel." Check for that next Friday. They're both up for Emmys. I think they'll win.

DICKERSON: Such good shows.

FURLAN: I would give them an Emmy.


FURLAN: (Laughter). Yeah. Totally.

SANDERS: Would you give Post Malone an Emmy?



DICKERSON: He doesn't - he just won a big award.

SANDERS: Is it a big award?

FURLAN: Yeah, he's good.


DICKERSON: And he lived.



DICKERSON: And he lived.

SANDERS: ...A big award? He lived.

FURLAN: It's climbing towards relevance.


SANDERS: (Laughter) Post Malone lives. Thank you all for listening. I'm Sam Sanders. Talk soon.


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