Review
Code Switch
Review
Code Switch
KAREN GRIGSBY BATES, HOST:
Just a heads up, this episode contains some strong language - not on my end, though. Don't @ me. All right, on with the show.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
BATES: This is CODE SWITCH from NPR. I'm Karen Grigsby Bates.
DOUALY XAYKAOTHAO, HOST:
And I'm Doualy Xaykaothao, shadow of the moon - (non-English language spoken).
BATES: Fam, remember last year when we were saying, oh, this year, can't wait for 2021?
XAYKAOTHAO: There have been some improvements, some light in this pandemic that we are all trying to live through.
BATES: For instance, a lot of us got into cooking.
XAYKAOTHAO: Many of us spent more time with our loved ones, and a lot of us went out and got pets.
BATES: And we watched a lot of TV.
XAYKAOTHAO: I hate to admit this, but in my hours of darkness and isolation, I watched all five seasons of a Turkish TV series on Netflix called "Resurrection Ertugrul."
(LAUGHTER)
XAYKAOTHAO: This is an epic fictional drama about the father of the Ottoman Empire, and now I use the word eyvallah in just about every sentence. Eyvallah has so many meanings, including thanks and trust in God - eyvallah (laughter).
BATES: Good lord.
XAYKAOTHAO: Well, team CODE SWITCH has a lot to share about the stuff we've all been watching because, this year, there are a bunch of shows that actually had a lot to say about race, culture and identity. In a minute, we'll hear how a new show staffed almost entirely by Native Americans gave us a way different view of Indian life than the stereotypes usually do.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "RESERVATION DOGS")
PAULINA ALEXIS: (As Willie Jack) Hell nah, not an owl.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Oh, my God.
ALEXIS: (As Willie Jack) Yo, that's not a good sign.
BATES: Also a delightful comedy about a Muslim women's punk band and a unique children's series that haunts ghosts in old Los Angeles.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "CITY OF GHOSTS")
AUGUST NUNEZ: (As Zelda) Hi, I'm Zelda, and welcome to "City Of Ghosts."
XAYKAOTHAO: But first, Karen, you watched a show recently that you were kind of surprised to fall in love with. What's that about?
BATES: I did. This year, the '80s hit "The Wonder Years" got reimagined, Doualy. Instead of Kevin Arnold and his family in an unspecified suburb somewhere, we got a new family, a Black family in Montgomery, Ala.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE WONDER YEARS")
DULE HILL: (As Bill Williams) Bad enough my son doesn't have rhythm.
ELISHA WILLIAMS: (As Dean Williams) Hey.
HILL: (As Bill Williams) Yet - my son doesn't have rhythm yet.
BATES: And in this series, Kevin is Dean - Dean Williams.
XAYKAOTHAO: I'm guessing the new "Wonder Years" is looking at some things the original one didn't, like race.
BATES: That's right. And I'll be honest, Doualy, I was worried that the new version would be the white Arnold's in Black bodies. But as I started to watch, I realized that this new version of "The Wonder Years" was its own thing. Dean's big sister, Kim, falls for a charismatic Black Panther and has to sneak around to see him before she dumps him. His older brother, Bruce, is in the Army in Vietnam, and whenever Dean gets too nosy about things that they thought didn't concern him, his parents are quick to tell him...
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE WONDERS YEARS")
DULE HILL AND SAYCON SENGBLOH: (As Bill Williams and Lillian Williams) Stay out of grown folks business.
XAYKAOTHAO: I think most cultures have a similar saying about how kids don't need to be concerning themselves with things the elders are trying to figure out. Like in my Hmong house, it was always (non-English language spoken) this is for adults only. But in this new "Wonder Years," Karen, what's your favorite moment so far?
BATES: My favorite episode so far is centered on Lillian Williams. Lillian is the mom in the family. Everyone adores her. But like a lot of moms, she gets taken for granted. Narrator Don Cheadle is the grown-up Dean who looks back on his childhood.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE WONDER YEARS")
SAYCON SENGBLOH: (As Lillian Williams) Well, now that I think about it, today would be a good day for Dean to go to work with me. We have a lot of fun stuff planned.
DON CHEADLE: (As Narrator) I didn't know where my mom worked, but I could tell by her sweater, her job was boring.
BATES: Oh, just you wait, kid. So I wanted to talk to Saycon Sengbloh, who plays Lillian, about her character and that episode. In it, Dean goes with her to Take Your Child To Work Day. Sengbloh says there are some similarities between her and Lillian.
SENGBLOH: Similar to my character, I love crunching numbers and I like the books to be balanced. So no, I'm not an accountant, but I do care very much about how my money is spent.
BATES: Dean figures, as his father and sister do, his mother had things pretty much handled at home, but going to work with her was a revelation.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE WONDER YEARS")
CHEADLE: (As Narrator) I never knew the role Mama played at work. I knew she had a job, but I just pictured her grocery shopping and running errands all day. She ran that place. People listened to her. People had to listen to her.
BATES: Although that had a price. Lillian was a senior accountant with a master's degree at the state Treasury Department - the only person there with those credentials - so she had to gently step around male egos - most of those egos belonging to white males - to do her work. Sengbloh sees it this way.
SENGBLOH: Sometimes, you got to play the game, you know? You got to play a game (laughter) so I think she's just like, let me play this game. I will say this, though - I think it must have been exhausting in that era, as much as it requires finesse in how you talk to people and how you deal with people at work.
BATES: Especially when, like Lillian, you are the only Black executive. Dean saw the fine line his mom had to walk.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE WONDER YEARS")
ELISHA: (As Dean Williams) You're not going to go to the cafeteria with the other account execs?
SENGBLOH: (As Lillian Williams) Oh, they don't want to eat with me.
ELISHA: (As Dean Williams) What about the secretaries?
SENGBLOH: (As Lillian Williams) They have other things to worry about.
CHEADLE: (As Narrator) I guess for a Black woman in the position my mom was in in the 1960s, working mom meant you didn't have a place at anybody's lunch table, but it didn't slow her down. And that made her even more of a hero to me.
BATES: Dean started the day kind of clueless about what his mom did. But by the end of it, he had huge respect for all she's balancing. Saycon Sengbloh says in a lot of ways, 1968 Alabama and what Lillian was dealing with isn't so different from what we're seeing in the United States right now.
SENGBLOH: You know, you can't deny that the growth and the change and all the wonderful things that have happened and the abilities that people have to live their life freely and enjoy lifestyles freely. But it's certainly been a mirror, for sure, and really uncanny how similar the errors are considering how much we think has already changed.
XAYKAOTHAO: That is not "The Wonder Years" I remember from the '80s.
BATES: Exactly, Doualy. It's focusing its stories and a lot of American history through a Black family's eyes. And that's something we don't see very often.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
BATES: OK. Now we're going to bring on some other members of the team. Doualy, you spoke to CODE SWITCH producer Kumari Devarajan about a show she loved.
XAYKAOTHAO: I did. How's it going, Kumari?
KUMARI DEVARAJAN, BYLINE: It's good. It's good.
XAYKAOTHAO: It's so good to be with you. I miss seeing you at NPR West.
DEVARAJAN: I've missed seeing you. For those of you who don't know, Doualy used to sit directly behind me. So I really miss turning my chair around and looking at you working so intently while I was distracting myself and others.
(LAUGHTER)
XAYKAOTHAO: Well, Kumari, what TV show were you bingeing this year?
DEVARAJAN: I was watching "We Are Lady Parts." It's a musical comedy about a punk band in London that is made up of all Muslim women.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "WE ARE LADY PARTS")
SARAH KAMEELA IMPEY: (As Saira) We are Lady Parts. Here's a little something we thought you might like.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
XAYKAOTHAO: Excellent. I'm excited already. I miss live music. What drew you to this show?
DEVARAJAN: Well, what felt really different about this show was, OK, so obviously it's a whole new frontier when it comes to representation on screen. But usually when I see shows that are one of a kind in that sense, they feel kind of, like, dumbed down and pandering.
XAYKAOTHAO: Like they're trying to check boxes or trying to appease a really broad audience maybe?
DEVARAJAN: Yeah, exactly. And in contrast, "We Are Lady Parts" felt so authentic. The jokes are really sophisticated and high level, and they felt kind of insider-y (ph).
XAYKAOTHAO: As a viewer, I appreciate that. And you're right. You know, you don't see that a lot. So what happens in the show?
DEVARAJAN: Well, I'm going to have one of the actresses answer that. Her name is Anjana Vasan.
ANJANA VASAN: The story of "Lady Parts" is from the perspective of Amina, the character that I play, and her journey with joining the band. When we first meet Amina, she's very bookish, and she seems very, you know, straight-laced. But she seems like the furthest idea from punk. But she's secretly a genius guitarist.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "WE ARE LADY PARTS")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Oh, so hang on. You are a guitarist?
FAITH OMOLE: (As Bisma) She's a guitarist?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character) She's a guitarist.
IMPEY: (As Saira) Play something.
OMOLE: (As Bisma) Play something.
LUCIE SHORTHOUSE: (As Momtaz) Play something.
VASAN: (As Amina) I don't play. I just teach.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) You've got to play to teach.
VASAN: (As Amina) I don't perform. My nervy disposition induces diarrhea and vomiting.
OMOLE: (As Bisma) Ew.
XAYKAOTHAO: Oh, what could go wrong?
DEVARAJAN: (Laughter) Right.
XAYKAOTHAO: How does Amina's character fit in with the band then?
DEVARAJAN: Yeah. So it's a little rocky at first. One conflict comes to a head over lyrics to a song called "Voldemort Under My Headscarf."
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "WE ARE LADY PARTS")
VASAN: (As Amina) Sorry. Did you say "Voldemort Under My Headscarf"?
JULIETTE MOTAMED: (As Ayesha) Yeah. You got a problem with my lyrics?
VASAN: (As Amina) No (laughter). No, not at all. I get it. It's just - I don't know. Some people might find it offensive.
DEVARAJAN: Amina then tries to rewrite the song.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "WE ARE LADY PARTS")
VASAN: (As Amina) OK. So maybe instead of "Voldemort Under My Headscarf," you could do maybe (singing) I love to wear my headscarf...
MOTAMED: (As Ayesha) I knew it.
(CROSSTALK)
DEVARAJAN: I also spoke with Juliette Motamed. She plays Ayesha, the drummer who wrote the song. So most of the women in the band wear a hijab.
MOTAMED: They're calling out to the viewer, the person who's watching them saying, why are you so scared? If this was a hat or a helmet or anything else, you wouldn't be looking at me with fear. But let me tell you, underneath this headscarf, there's Voldemort. Like, I'm going to fight you kind of thing.
DEVARAJAN: For me as a viewer, it was one of my favorite songs. But initially, like, on first listen, it made me sort of uncomfortable. I hear people say horrible things about hijabs and people who wear them all the time that even hearing it done in a satirical way, it made me nervous to think about how people would react to that.
MOTAMED: Of course, I actually really understand your kind of initial feeling of discomfort with that...
DEVARAJAN: Here's Juliette again.
MOTAMED: ...Because I think a lot of the time, stuff like this can be handled really clumsily or perhaps heavy handedly in a way that doesn't quite serve the audience that it's for and can end up feeling maybe a little bit insensitive - 'cause I think when you see the issue on paper, it doesn't quite hit the same way as it does when we're screaming it over a mic being absolutely ridiculous. Like...
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "WE ARE LADY PARTS")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS: (As characters, singing) What could I be hiding? What could I be hiding? What could I be hiding? Voldemort's alive and - Voldemort's alive and he's under my headscarf. He's alive. He's alive. Voldemort's alive, and he's under my headscarf.
DEVARAJAN: I think the show left room for viewers like me to feel a bit uncomfortable. Here's Anjana, who plays Amina.
VASAN: That discomfort is basically Amina's discomfort.
XAYKAOTHAO: And Amina, that's the bookish one. She's the shy girl, pukes when she performs.
DEVARAJAN: Yeah.
VASAN: And here, the girls are being loud and unapologetic. And she's probably thinking, well, they're being too loud and too unapologetic, and maybe the lyrics are too on the nose. And actually, while she's playing the song, she gets really into it. And then she realizes that, oh, no, this is just a spoof. This is satire. This is making fun of the fear. And by saying it out loud, you know, with a certain amount of ridiculousness, it dispels the fear and makes it, like, not a scary thing.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "VOLDEMORT UNDER MY HEADSCARF")
LADY PARTS: (Singing) Voldemort's alive and - Voldemort's alive and - Voldemort's alive and he's under my headscarf. He's alive. He's alive. Voldemort's alive and...
XAYKAOTHAO: Thanks, Kumari.
DEVARAJAN: Thanks, Doualy.
BATES: I saw the first episode of this, and I have to say I fell in love, and now I'm addicted.
XAYKAOTHAO: I know. Me too.
All right, after the break, we're coming back with more shows that illuminated something about race and identity for other members of the CODE SWITCH team.
BATES: Including one of my problematic faves.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BACHELORETTE")
UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: Tonight on "The Bachelorette"...
XAYKAOTHAO: So stick around. We'll be back in just a minute.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
BATES: Karen.
XAYKAOTHAO: Doualy.
BATES: CODE SWITCH.
XAYKAOTHAO: So we are talking TV here - stuff we love and that maybe you will, too.
BATES: Up next, we're going to be talking about one of my guilty pleasures. It's a show that I can't tell if I love or just love to hate.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BACHELORETTE")
UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: Tonight on "The Bachelorette"...
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: This is the woman I've been waiting for my entire life.
BRANDON JONES: And I'm just like, nothing can go wrong.
LAVONNE YOUNG: Michelle?
BATES: That's right. It's the "Bachelor"/"Bachelorette" franchise, a show that's been running in different iterations for almost 20 years. And if you've somehow missed it, a quick explanatory comma. The premise is basically that a cadre of young women or men compete to find love with one eligible bachelor or bachelorette, ideally ending in an engagement.
Joining me to talk about the latest season of "The Bachelorette" is CODE SWITCH editor Leah Donnella. Hey, Leah.
LEAH DONNELLA, BYLINE: Hi, Karen.
BATES: Leah, I think it may surprise some people that you and I are both, to some extent, citizens of Bachelor Nation. So tell me what made you want to talk about this franchise for CODE SWITCH. I mean, I have some guesses.
DONNELLA: So one of the things I find really interesting is that this show tries so hard to be a complete fantasy where all that matters is falling in love. You rarely hear contestants talk about politics or religion or the news or gender roles or even, like, what their real jobs are besides, like, pizzapreneur (ph).
BATES: (Laughter).
DONNELLA: The episodes are shot in these beautiful locations, and the contestants are largely isolated while the show is filming. But even within this kind of dream world, it just has not been able to avoid the topic of race, especially in the past few years.
BATES: Boy, this is true. I mean, for years and years, the "Bachelor" franchise was criticized for its lack of diversity when it came to the show's contestants. In fact, in 2012, two Black men actually sued "The Bachelor" for casting discrimination. The judge ultimately dismissed that case while not denying that the show had a preference for white cast members, but rather said that choosing to do so was within the production rights under the First Amendment.
DONNELLA: Yeah. So, I mean, they've been pretty successfully skirting the issue of diversity on the show for years.
BATES: Yeah.
DONNELLA: But then, as you know, during the racial uprising in 2020, it seems like the show decided it couldn't not talk about race and it couldn't not have more Black people specifically on the show, which led to some really, really uncomfortable moments, including the show's longtime host, Chris Harrison, stepping back from his role for a bit.
BATES: More recently, "The Bachelor" and "The Bachelorette" have been casting more and more people of color in prominent roles. They've now had three Black women cast as "The Bachelorette," one Black man as "The Bachelor." And since 2020, it seems like they've been trying to center these discussions about race, although largely, it's only been about Blackness and whiteness.
DONNELLA: So, Karen, I wanted to better understand why race became a topic that the show ultimately decided to talk about. So I called up Lauren Michele Jackson.
LAUREN MICHELE JACKSON: Assistant professor of English at Northwestern University. I'm also a contributing writer for The New Yorker and the author of an essay collection called "White Negroes."
DONNELLA: Lauren wrote an essay in The New Yorker about race and "The Bachelor." And she told me that whether or not it's made explicit...
JACKSON: There's always a racial dimension to how people select partners, how people date, who people view as desirable. And that decision is made again and again and again with each season of "The Bachelor."
DONNELLA: She said that explains why even though there have been a number of people of color cast as contestants on the show, there's never been a Black contestant who's made it to the point of getting engaged.
JACKSON: You cannot laissez-faire into diversity, representation, et cetera, et cetera, right? Someone actually has to make an intervention and put somebody into a certain role.
DONNELLA: Which is especially awkward for a show that's supposed to be about the magic and mystery of falling in love.
BATES: Yeah. It's not so romantic when the producers come around and say, you, bachelorette, have to interview at least three people of color for the role of your husband.
DONNELLA: (Laughter).
BATES: And you have to consult with a diverse hiring panel before making any final decisions. So Leah, talk to me about this current season because it's a little different. It centers around Michele, a biracial Black woman. And many of the contestants vying for her hand are Black men.
DONNELLA: Yeah. And not only that, I mean, the show actually spends a lot of time talking about race. Michelle talks about what it was like to be the only Black girl in her classes growing up.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BACHELORETTE")
MICHELLE YOUNG: I was, oftentimes, the only person of color in my classroom.
DONNELLA: She talks about the assumptions that are made when she is seen with a Black man versus a white man.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BACHELORETTE")
YOUNG: Any time I'm with a man of color, I'm - we're a couple. That's what everyone sees it as.
DONNELLA: She talks about ending a relationship with a white partner because he was minimizing the racism she had to deal with.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BACHELORETTE")
YOUNG: If I have to explain that, well, I'll also be explaining that the relationship's not going to work.
DONNELLA: And I'm - I mean, I'm curious, Karen, because you've been watching the show, too. How do those conversations land with you?
BATES: I don't know whether Michelle is, but I think the show is very conscious of the fact that most of "The Bachelor's" and "Bachelorette" watchers are not people of color. They're white people. And so they don't want them to feel like they've missed anything. And so the conversations about race to me - and remember, I work at CODE SWITCH, so it's a little bit different here.
DONNELLA: (Laughter).
BATES: They seem very Race 101.
DONNELLA: I felt really similarly. Like, they're definitely trying to perform these conversations. But I think the overall experience of watching the show is still really awkward. And Lauren Michele Jackson said, that kind of makes sense.
JACKSON: I watch a lot of reality TV. I watch a lot of Bravo. And Bravo also - similarly, has also been trying to diversify, add women of color to its cast, introduce conversations about race in the show. And it's been one of those things that, as a Black viewer, has been probably just as uncomfortable for me as it has been for white viewers of the show because, you know, I don't watch "The Real Housewives" to think more deeply about race in America, which is not to say that race isn't always there.
BATES: It goes back to what you said earlier, I think, Leah. This show started out as a silly, kind of numbing escape for you. And then, when it starts having conversations about race, when it starts going deeper and gets really serious, it becomes far less of an escape.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
DONNELLA: Yeah. It suddenly feels much more like real life, where I'm constantly waiting for someone to say something weird and then trying to unpack it.
BATES: You said it. So Leah, the show you're watching but not necessarily recommending is Season 18 of "The Bachelorette." Thanks so much.
DONNELLA: Thank you, Karen.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
XAYKAOTHAO: Now to one of the best series this year, in my humble opinion, "Reservation Dogs" on Hulu. Our CODE SWITCH fellow, Sam Yellowhorse Kesler, is here to talk about this excellent production. Hey, Sam.
SAM YELLOWHORSE KESLER, BYLINE: Hey, Doualy.
XAYKAOTHAO: So I watched "Reservation Dogs" and could not get enough of it. I wanted so much more. The title itself is kind of a joke. I picked up on the Tarantino reference. It's a play on "Reservoir Dogs." But there's another kind of nod there, right?
KESLER: Yeah. Rez dogs are a real phenomenon on reservations. They're, like, these scrappy, wild dogs that roam about without a proper home. And they have a real charm to them. And so that kind of describes our protagonists as well, four Native teenagers in Oklahoma who think of themselves as modern-day bandits. They're trying to commit enough petty theft to buy their way out of the rez to California.
XAYKAOTHAO: There's so much I loved about this show. And the writers and the main cast are entirely indigenous, right?
KESLER: Yeah. And so I was interested in talking with someone who has a hand in both of those. And one name stuck out in particular.
DALLAS GOLDTOOTH: Hi. My name is Dallas Goldtooth.
KESLER: Dallas is an actor in the first season of the show. And he's a writer on the second season. And he made it clear that "Reservation Dogs" is all about showing people a side of Native Americans that they rarely get to see on TV.
GOLDTOOTH: We're well aware of how the outside world sees us. And Native American people - they see it as a monolithic culture that is, like, you know, the topless warrior on top of a horse spewing out wisdom left and right. And so we very much wanted to upend that.
XAYKAOTHAO: When I first saw him on "Rez Dogs," I was like, what? Yes. And I could not stop laughing, especially because I've seen his very serious side, you know, when I was covering the Standing Rock protests in the Dakotas. And then, he was a different kind of force. So seeing him so exaggerated, that was just priceless.
KESLER: Yeah. And I should say that the first time you see him, he does come riding up on horseback, bare chested, just a full-on stereotype. And, I mean, I think that's what he was really talking about was putting these kinds of stereotypes on display.
GOLDTOOTH: Yeah. So the character I play in "Reservation Dogs," his name is William Knife-Man, but most people know him as Spirit. He is - he's a spirit. He is a person that once existed in the late 1800s and died at the Battle of the Little Bighorn.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "RESERVATION DOGS")
GOLDTOOTH: (As Spirit) I didn't kill anybody, but I fought bravely. Well, I didn't actually fight. I actually didn't even get into the fight itself. But I came over that hill real rugged like (shouting) I saw Custer like that, that yellow hair, he was sitting there. Son of the morning star, that guy right there. F***, I really hated him. So I went after him. But then the damn horse hit a gopher hole, f****** rolled over and squashed me. I died there.
XAYKAOTHAO: Every scene that Goldtooth is in, I mean, he just has me laughing out loud. There are so many good characters in "Res Dogs," though, and I'm curious, what drew you to Dallas Goldtooth?
KESLER: Honestly - because I really loved his character this season, just as you did, and I wanted to talk to him about that. But also Dallas has kind of an amazing resume. He's an activist, a writer, an actor, and he was in the Indigenous comedy group The 1491s.
XAYKAOTHAO: The 1491s is this crew out of Minnesota and all five members, according to Goldtooth, are hardcore Prince fans. So as he explains, party like it's 1491, you know, the year before it all went to - well, you know, Columbus arrives.
KESLER: They have this great video about an Indian store where Dallas plays a similar character to the one we just heard.
(SOUNDBITE OF VIDEO)
GOLDTOOTH: (As character) I had to go on a vision quest and ask for the raccoon spirit to come to me. I humbly put out tobacco for him, and when he came, I killed him.
XAYKAOTHAO: So before, he was performing comedy for Indigenous audience, and now he's working on a show for FX and Hulu. I'm guessing that's kind of a different audience to play to.
KESLER: I thought so, too. So I asked Dallas about that.
GOLDTOOTH: To be absolutely honest, in my experience in the writers room thus far is that we actually spend very little time worried about how non-Native people are going to perceive the show. Like, the vast majority of our time is spent on, are we telling a good story? Are we actually being very smart and intelligent and not taking our audience for granted and make sure that, you know, we're giving them a smart show?
KESLER: And what I actually loved about "Reservation Dogs" is that the writers were so unafraid to make jokes that only appealed to Natives. It felt so good at certain times to be in on these jokes.
XAYKAOTHAO: Did Dallas have any moments in particular that he loved from the show?
KESLER: Yeah, we actually both had the same moment we really loved. Here's Dallas again.
GOLDTOOTH: The sequence when they go visit - when the reservation dogs go to visit Uncle Brownie and they encounter an owl.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "RESERVATION DOGS")
ALEXIS: (As Willie Jack) Man, I'm not going to the door.
DEVERY JACOBS: (As Elora) Hey, Uncle.
ALEXIS: (As Willie Jack) Aw, f***. Hell nah, not an owl.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #5: (As character) Oh, my God,
ALEXIS: (As Willie Jack) Yo, that's not a good sign.
GOLDTOOTH: I love that so much because it's so - it's such like a - it's like an inside joke. Like, folks in - there are - not all Native communities have taboos that are - but there are some commonalities between certain tribes. And, like, the motif of owls is a common one enough to where it - that joke really resonated with a lot of people.
XAYKAOTHAO: So true. So true. Well, that's Dallas Goldtooth talking about "Reservation Dogs." Thanks for bringing us this show, Sam.
KESLER: No problem, Doualy.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
BATES: And our final recommendation comes from our producer, Christina Cala. Hey, Christina.
CHRISTINA CALA, BYLINE: Hey, Karen.
BATES: So I know you really like animated series, and you brought us one today, right?
CALA: I did. So the show I wanted to share today is called "City Of Ghosts." It's this really earnest, tender show that blends animation and real life beautifully. It's all about LA, and it's for kids. But, honestly, I think it can be enjoyed by anyone because it's full of really cool, true stories.
BATES: So for people who haven't seen it, Christina, tell us what it's all about.
CALA: So it's mockumentary style, and it follows a girl from Boyle Heights named Zelda, who loves ghosts.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "CITY OF GHOSTS")
AUGUST: (As Zelda) Hi, I'm Zelda. And welcome to "City Of Ghosts."
ELIZABETH ITO: She has a ghost club that's a bunch of kids from around LA that go around looking for ghosts to record their stories.
CALA: That's creator Elizabeth Ito. She's the show's director. She's an animator, and she's an LA native.
BATES: You know, I recognize the animation from her previous work, "Adventure Time." That was a huge hit with kids, and with grown-up critics. But, Christina, why a ghost club?
CALA: So there's a few reasons for that. For one, it was inspired in part by an incident when Elizabeth was 6. One night, she got up to go to the bathroom, as one does sometimes.
BATES: Yeah.
CALA: And she saw her great-grandmother's ghost.
ITO: When I was, like, sitting there, I thought I saw this, like, foggy shape in the hallway. And so I just called out to my parents. Like, somebody help me. There's a ghost out here. And my dad shouted back, like, it's fine. Go to bed. And so I did that. And then the next morning he asked me, basically, like, oh, so you saw a ghost in the hallway? And then he said, like, he saw it too earlier in the night, and he didn't get up to help me because he was scared.
(LAUGHTER)
BATES: Her dad is no fool. I would be scared, too.
CALA: Same, same. And even though she's an adult now, Elizabeth has kept thinking about that moment and how she reacted.
ITO: I wish that wasn't my response because, like, when I think about it with, like, my great grandmother, I loved my great-grandmother, so I would have loved - I would love now if I was able to talk to her and find out more about her life.
CALA: For the show, she was also looking for something where a kid could be seen as more of an expert than an adult.
ITO: If there are ghosts, I feel like that's why kids see them a lot - because they're open to it, and they're open to understanding why something might be there (laughter).
BATES: Which makes perfect sense.
CALA: (Laughter).
BATES: So who are some of the ghosts Zelda and the Ghost Club meet? I mean, since it's set in LA, I'm guessing there are some really cool ones.
CALA: There absolutely are. There is a jazz drummer in Leimert Park, an alebrije who likes Korean barbecue. I mean, who doesn't?
BATES: (Laughter).
CALA: A punk ghost who loves drinking her daughter's coffee and gets hype on the caffeine. And one of my favorite episodes is about the Tongva. There's this kid, Jasper, who is Tongva, and comes to the Ghost Club for help because he's hearing this voice, and he wants to figure out where it's coming from. Along the way, he and the Ghost Club meet this guy, Mr. Craig, who is also Tongva and who helps guide them.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "CITY OF GHOSTS")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #6: (As character) Tongva? What's Tongva?
L FRANK MANRIQUEZ: (As Mr. Craig) Tongva is a name that we use today, the Indigenous people of the Los Angeles Basin. I have ancestors that come from all over the world, but the ones that I'm very connected to are the ones that come from this place. And for us, the Tongva, there's an extension to that because we also consider some of these first people in our stories, these nonhuman people, are ancestors as well.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #6: (As character) Whoa. Like lizards or clouds?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #7: (As character) Or roly-polies...
BATES: Where does the show get inspiration for who these ancestors and ghosts are going to be?
CALA: Yeah. So since the show blends animation and reality, the adults that the kids are learning about and learning from are all real people, and these are their real stories. So when they talk to the raven, they're learning about the Tongva from Tongva writer and activist L. Frank Manriquez. Or there's an episode where they learn about LA punk icon Atomic Nancy, and Nancy Sekizawa is still alive, though she plays a ghost (laughter). Her parents owned a punk rock cafe called the Atomic Cafe in Little Tokyo. Here's Elizabeth again.
ITO: That's how people and kids specifically learn the best about the communities they live in. Like, they learn about what used to be in their community by, most of the time, I think, it's like asking adults. I mean, it was also supposed to be kind of, like, a reflection of me because, like, I learned about everything in this city initially from my parents, you know? Like, my dad going all the time at the holidays to get tamales from La Mascota in East LA and me later on in life being like, why do we get tamales all the time at the holidays? (Laughter) Like, we're Japanese people. And his response was really just like, that's what people in my neighborhood did when I was little, so that's what I do, and I like it.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
CALA: I mean, Karen, I know you live in LA. I grew up in the suburbs, and I rep LA so hard (laughter), so I'm always on the lookout for shows about the city that feel like real representations of the place, and this one absolutely feels that way.
BATES: Well, thank you so much for bringing this our way, Christina.
CALA: Thank you, Karen.
BATES: Christina's recommendation is "City Of Ghosts" from creator Elizabeth Ito.
XAYKAOTHAO: Wow, Karen. I'm not an LA native, but I've spent a lot of time there, and listening to your conversation with Christina makes me want to be back, maybe not hunting for ghosts myself but enjoying Boyle Heights and other neighborhoods.
BATES: You can come stay with me.
XAYKAOTHAO: Excellent.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
BATES: And that's our show. We want to hear from you. You can follow us on Twitter and IG. We're at @nprcodeswitch. Tweet at us and tell us what show you're bingeing this season. I'm at @karenbates. And subscribe to our newsletter at npr.org/codeswitchnewsletter. And email us at codeswitch@npr.org.
This episode was produced by Kumari Devarajan. It was edited by Leah Donnella and Steve Drummond.
XAYKAOTHAO: And shout-out to the rest of the CODE SWITCH fam, some of whom you heard from today - Christina Cala, Sam Yellowhorse Kesler, Alyssa Jeong Perry, LA Johnson and Summer Thomad. Our Intern is Aja Drain. I'm Doualy Xaykaothao.
BATES: And I'm Karen Grigsby Bates.
XAYKAOTHAO: (Non-English language spoken).
BATES: See you.
GENE DEMBY, HOST:
What's up, y'all? This is Gene. Level up your listening with CODE SWITCH+. You'll unlock sponsor-free listening and know that you're supporting our podcast. Subscribe now at plus.npr.org/codeswitch.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
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