Stuart Duncan: Why do we need safe virtual play spaces?
MANOUSH ZOMORODI, HOST:
It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Manoush Zomorodi. And today on the show, the power of play.
STUART DUNCAN: So I've always been a gamer my whole life. But, of course, for me, gaming was, you know, taking rolls of quarters to the arcade.
ZOMORODI: This is Stuart Duncan.
DUNCAN: And they had all the classics like Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat.
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DUNCAN: But even older than that, we had, like, the old tabletop games - Pac-Man, Centipede (laughter), those old, old classics on a table. Like, I literally - I had one of those actual huge boxes with a knob at each end of the thing and a switch in the middle, and that was Pong.
And I always thought of it as a tool to increase my problem-solving, my hand-eye coordination, my reflexes, all that sort of stuff. I got better at things because of trying to figure out these video games.
ZOMORODI: Fast forward, and video games have changed. But so has Stuart. He's a web developer and a single dad.
DUNCAN: Yeah, I have two teenage sons, 16 and 14. The oldest is Cameron. He is autistic. And his younger brother, Tyler, is not autistic.
ZOMORODI: And when Cameron was diagnosed, Stuart realized that maybe playing video games could be a way to help his son.
DUNCAN: We were getting him into speech therapy, occupational therapy. He - and to this day, still struggles with motor control. So - and the beginning was gross motor control, you know, just doing the really big movements. And then, of course, eventually, the fine motor control - writing with a pencil and stuff like that.
And I had the idea - if you remember the Wii, the first one, the controller - you could put it into a steering wheel and play Mario Kart, and you would drive it like a car, like an actual steering wheel.
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CHARLES MARTINET: (As Mario) Woo (ph).
DUNCAN: And I put the wheel in his hand, and all he had to do was turn his hands a little bit and press one button to make it go. He didn't have to coordinate, do any button combinations, none of that stuff. And, of course, at first, he would twist his arms all the way around. So, you know, Mario was just spinning on the track and stuff. But over time, he started to get the smaller movements, the gradual turns, this and that, and knowing when to back up and stuff like that. And he picked that stuff up. And then he started beating me in races.
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MARTINET: (As Mario) Mario's No. 1.
DUNCAN: So he developed really good gross motor skill controls by playing Mario Kart on the Wii. They've been gamers ever since.
ZOMORODI: So you started with Mario Kart. But at some point, you guys discovered Minecraft - right? - which is pretty much one of the most popular online games ever. But for people who haven't played it, just describe it, Stuart. What is Minecraft? How does it work?
DUNCAN: So basically, you start Minecraft - it literally plops you into the middle of a randomly generated world. So your world will not be the same as anybody else's. And there'll be trees. There'll be oceans. There'll be deserts. There'll be little animals running around, like chickens and cows and stuff. And then at night, monsters come out. And you're basically just left to fend for yourself in this gigantic, open, infinite world where you can do just about anything your imagination can think of.
ZOMORODI: And that's because everything is kind of made out of these virtual blocks, right?
DUNCAN: Yeah.
ZOMORODI: You can build the house of your dreams with a pool. You can build a mansion. It is like Lego on steroids.
DUNCAN: And that's kind of the beauty of it. Like, I describe it as, there's no wrong way to play. Like, nobody can tell you you're doing it wrong. Like, yeah, some people do exactly that. They'll make themselves a nice little house with a pool and a garden. Other people build castles and entire medieval villages around them. Some people recreate the landscapes in "Lord Of The Rings." One person built a Nintendo emulator inside of Minecraft. So they were actually playing Mario Brothers inside of Minecraft because the game is just that robust. There's just so much to it that, literally, when I say there's no limit, there really is no limit.
ZOMORODI: But Stuart started noticing a downside to Minecraft.
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DUNCAN: I saw parents on social media reaching out to other parents, asking if their autistic children could play together. And the reason is that when they tried to play on public servers, they kept running into bullies and trolls.
ZOMORODI: Here's Stuart Duncan on the TED stage.
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DUNCAN: When you have autism, you behave a little differently sometimes - sometimes a lot differently. And we all know that a little bit of difference is all you really need for a bully to make you their next target. So these terrible, terrible people online, they would destroy everything that they tried to make. They would steal all their stuff, and they would kill them over and over again, making the game virtually unplayable. But the worst part, the part that really hurt the most, was what these bullies would say to these kids. They'd call them rejects and defects and retards. And they would tell these kids, some as young as 6 years old, that society doesn't want them and their own parents never wanted a broken child, so they should just kill themselves. And, of course, these kids, you understand, they would sign off from these servers angry and hurt. They would break their keyboards. They'd quite literally hate themselves, and their parents felt powerless to do anything. So I decided I had to try and help. I have autism, my oldest son has autism and both my kids and I love Minecraft. So I have to do something. So I got myself a Minecraft server.
ZOMORODI: Stuart, this is so upsetting to hear what these kids experienced online. They just wanted a fun place to play. But you saw that and you thought, you know, maybe I can fix this.
DUNCAN: Yeah, yeah. I don't know. It was starting to break my heart the more and more and more I saw it because you keep seeing people saying, I wish there was a server where my kids could play. I wish that they could play without being - I wish there were - and I saw a need for these kids to be able to play together where that sort of behavior wouldn't be allowed. Now, keeping in mind - I had a full-time job at the time. I have two kids. I was busy enough already. But to me, I thought, maybe we'd get a few hundred people to join the server, and it would be something I could do in my spare time and just give them this place where trolls wouldn't be able to get in. But little did I know what I was getting myself into. There was a whole lot more need for it than I ever realized.
I spent about two weeks building a really makeshift village. I put a big welcome sign in the sky so that people felt welcomed. I built a lodge on a mountaintop so people could gather - just basic little things that, you know, were just the worst. Compared to any other Minecraft servers - it was so bad. But it would be theirs, and it would be safe. So I built it up. Two weeks later, I go on Facebook. And I post it to my friends - which is a list of, like, 300 people on Facebook - just to see. And I said, I started a Minecraft server. It's just for children with autism and their families. Other people are welcome to join - like, you know, brothers, sisters, friends, and that's it. That was, like, literally two sentences shared to my friends. And I got about 750 emails in the first two days.
ZOMORODI: Oh, my gosh (laughter).
DUNCAN: Word just spread like wildfire. There was just - the autism community just came together and went, you need to know about this.
ZOMORODI: Stuart named his Minecraft world Autcraft. And there were guidelines, rules. No breaking things or stealing. No fighting or killing. No cursing or being mean. And parents and friends would be there to enforce these rules and just make sure kids were having fun.
DUNCAN: And it was pretty amazing because it just - it formed this really close, supportive, encouraging family, like, almost instantly. Everybody was there for each other. Everybody - when somebody had a bad day, everybody would be like, oh, it's OK. You can talk to us if you need to. You know, tell us all about it or whatever. And a lot of them just never used the chat, never opened up, never talked. They were afraid of awkward situations, of being teased about this or that or - but pretty much from Day 1 that Autcraft opened, these kids would come in, be quiet. And the talkative ones would say, this is how you can do this. This is how you can get this protected and stuff and everything. And they would open up.
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DUNCAN: I started hearing from parents who said that their nonverbal children were starting to speak. They only talked about Minecraft, but they were talking.
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DUNCAN: Some kids were making friends at school for the first time ever. Some were starting to share and even give things to other people. It was amazing. And every single parent came to me and said it was because of Autcraft. It's because of what you're doing. But why, though? How could all of this be just from a video game server? Well, that goes back to the guidelines that I used when I created the server, guidelines that I think help encourage people to be their very best, I hope.
For example, communication - that can be tough for kids with autism. It can be tough for grown-ups without autism. But I think that kids should not be punished. They should be talked to. Nine times out of 10, when the kids on the server act out, it's because of something else that's happened in the day at school or at home. Maybe a pet died. Sometimes it's just a simple miscommunication between two children. They don't tell the other person what they're about to do. And so we just offer to help. We always tell the children on the server that we're not mad and they're not in trouble. We only want to help. And it shows that not only do we care, but we respect them enough to listen to their point of view.
On most servers, players are rewarded for how well they do in a competition, right? The better you do, the better reward you get. That sort of thing can be automated. The server does the work. The code is there. On Autcraft, we don't do that. We have things like Player of the Week and CBAs, which is Caught Being Awesome. Our top award, the AutismFather Sword, which is named after me because I'm the founder, is a very powerful sword that you can't get in the game any other way than to show that you completely put the community above yourself and that compassion and kindness is at the core of who you are. We've given away quite a few of those swords, actually. I figure if we're going to watch the server to make sure nothing bad happens, we should also watch for the good things that happen and reward people for them.
ZOMORODI: So, Stuart, the world you have described in Autcraft - it sounds fair, almost utopian for kids with autism and their families. But I guess I need to ask, you know, does this really prepare these kids for reality? I mean, the world is not a nice place where people follow the rules or get called out for bad behavior and then coached to communicate better. Some might think that you're coddling kids in this place and that it will not serve them when they need to fend for themselves in the real world.
DUNCAN: Yeah, yeah. I hear that a lot, and I also hear, you know, these kids should be learning these social skills face to face and not online.
ZOMORODI: Yeah. So what do you say to that?
DUNCAN: I would say I would prefer a child to make mistakes without fear of being harshly punished for it. I want them to learn from their mistakes and be encouraged to make mistakes, to learn right from wrong rather than just walk away going, I don't know what I did wrong. Some of them are in their late teens, early 20s, and it's really hard for them to filter themselves so that what they say and do is adequate for, like, a 6- or 7-year-old. But they do it, and, you know, like, it's a lot of being constricted by rules just like society but also having the freedom to be able to make all the mistakes they want and try all the things they want without fear of, you know, just being shut down and hurt and bullied for it.
I'll give you this example from last Christmas, one year ago. This kid joined the server in 2013, way back when. And I believe he was, like, 12 at the time. So you think, like, eight years ago or seven years ago, at the time, he was 12 years old. He had joined the server. And he was quiet and shy and super-scared because he was about to go into high school. And so we supported him. And we were there for him. And we talked about it. And it was hard, and studying and homework and all of this stuff for four years - and then after that came university. And then he was really scared about university. And he went through that. And he did all that sort of stuff.
And then he kind of dropped off the server because he was busy, obviously. And then he came back last Christmas, near the end of the year. And I was like, hey. I haven't seen you in a while. It's good to see you and everything. He says, listen. He messaged me privately. He says, I just wanted to come back. I'm so happy to see the server is still here and doing well. So I wanted to tell you that, like, when I joined, I was 12. He said, I never would have made it through high school. I never would have been able to join the social clubs and do well. He said, I never - I probably never would have went to university and been outspoken and done the stuff I wanted to do if I had never been on Autcraft. And now I'm back specifically to tell you that I just got my dream job at Lego headquarters.
ZOMORODI: (Laughter) Wow.
DUNCAN: And he's telling me, you know - he says, I owe so much to Autcraft because I learned how to make friends and to join groups and to be, like, a team leader on projects - and this and that and, you know, get involved with other people and do stuff. And he's like, I just - I'm so happy to see Autcraft is still here and doing well. And I was like, that just made my whole year
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ZOMORODI: Like, seriously, though, how do you do all this, Stuart, because on the one hand, you're the admin? So you're actually - you know, technically, you're in charge of all of this. But then it also sounds like you are acting as therapist and referee and CEO. And, I mean, this is your full-time job now, right?
DUNCAN: I wish I only did the hours of a full-time job.
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ZOMORODI: But did you give up your other...
DUNCAN: Yeah.
ZOMORODI: ...Your, quote-unquote, "real job" to do this?
DUNCAN: Yeah. My job was struggling. I wasn't able to meet deadlines. I was having to, like - I was, like, in the middle of meetings saying, oh, can we continue this a little bit later? There's a player that needs me right now.
ZOMORODI: Oh (laughter).
DUNCAN: Yeah. My - I wasn't able to keep up with the two because, literally, Autcraft - I wake up usually 7 a.m. And I check on everything. And I'm continuing right up until midnight.
ZOMORODI: Who is paying you?
DUNCAN: Supporters. I took a huge - I still, to this day, don't make as much as I did as a web developer. But it was enough that I was able to cover my bills. It's - you know, you hear from these parents who say that their children are happy. One person tweeted that their son said that they had the most amazing day. And she never thought she would ever hear that from them again. Like, it's been forever. So that's that reward (laughter).
ZOMORODI: So Stuart, I have to ask, do you have a message for parents, parents of kids who are obsessed with playing Minecraft, whether they are autistic or not? And maybe these parents just don't get it. Like, what do you say to them?
DUNCAN: I don't know how much you know about the autism community. But there's one specific expression that comes up a lot. And it's, your child is not ignoring you. They're waiting for you to enter their world. And I can think of no more literal interpretation of that than Minecraft. Like, pick up a controller or mouse and keyboard and join them in their world. And you will find, like, the most meaningful bond with your child that you've ever had, because then you start planning builds. You start planning adventures. You're having a great time.
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DUNCAN: And I love nothing more on my server than when I see entire families, four or five people - mom, dad, kids. We recently had a mom just join. She's, on her application - hope she doesn't mind. I'm not telling her name. But she's 60. And she's joining in to play with her son. And she's having a great time. And if I could get parents to know one thing, it's simply just join them. If 5 and 6-year-olds can figure this out, if they can sit in front of a screen and figure out the controls, then you can, too. You just have to put in the effort. And it's worth it.
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ZOMORODI: That's Stuart Duncan. He runs Autcraft, a Minecraft server for kids with autism and their families. You can see his full talk at ted.com. Just thinking back on this episode, we heard how play inspires Jacob Collier's unique style and how Yana uses it to change people's minds. My takeaway is - and maybe yours is, too - that the spirit of joy, curiosity and just plain fun can lead to so many unexpected outcomes. Next week, the final episode in our series Work, Play, Rest. Get ready for some unusual ideas about how we relax and reset.
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ZOMORODI: To see hundreds more TED talks, check out ted.com or the TED app. This episode was produced by Rachel Faulkner, Fiona Geiran, and James Delahoussaye. It was edited by Sanaz Meshkinpour. Our TED Radio production staff also includes Jeff Rogers, Diba Mohtasham, Katie Monteleone, and Matthew Cloutier. Our audio engineer is Brian Jarboe. And our intern is Margaret Cirino. Our theme music was written by Ramtin Arablouei. Our partners at TED are Chris Anderson, Colin Helms, Anna Phelan, Michelle Quint, Sammy Case, and Daniella Balarezo. I'm Manoush Zomorodi, and you've been listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR.
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