KAREN GRIGSBY BATES, HOST:
Just a heads-up - the following episode is about the history and current use of a racial slur, the N-word. You'll be hearing the word in its entirety at various points throughout the episode, so please proceed accordingly.
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GENE DEMBY, HOST:
What's good, y'all? I'm Gene Demby.
GRIGSBY BATES: I'm Karen Grigsby Bates.
DEMBY: And this is CODE SWITCH from NPR. We spend a lot of time on this team talking about language. Code switching, as a lot of y'all may already know, comes from social linguistics. We have a whole series on the blog and on the podcast that we call Word Watch, where we take some word or some saying or some phrase that tells us something about race or has a hidden history around race.
GRIGSBY BATES: Yep, we've tried to dissect words like yellow, brown, POC and, sigh, BIPOC...
DEMBY: Gross.
GRIGSBY BATES: ...(Laughter) I know - spook, white trash, white tears, boy, outside agitator, namaste, terrorism.
DEMBY: Also gung ho, podunk, nappy, hispandering, mixed, sassy, mumbo jumbo, sold down the river. We even took on, you know, the word racism itself.
GRIGSBY BATES: But Gene, there's one word we have never touched here on CODE SWITCH, in part because there's so much to say about it and in part because it feels like there's nothing left to say about it...
DEMBY: Right.
GRIGSBY BATES: ...And in part because, well, should we even be saying it on the air?
DEMBY: That word, for those of you who are still confused or who missed that disclaimer at the top, is nigger. And that's what we're talking about today. That word, it's history, its current use, or I guess I should say uses, and what, if anything, makes it different from other racial slurs. Like, why are we still debating after literal centuries of conversations about this word? Why are we still debating this word? So we're going to be using, and you're going to be hearing this word throughout this episode. And if you're like, nope, I don't want to hear that word spoken, I don't hear discussed, we understand that. And this is your cue. You can bounce. This episode is not for you.
GRIGSBY BATES: And no judgment there. This is a word with an incredibly long, violent history, as we'll hear in a little bit. For hundreds of years, it's accompanied acts of violence and terrorism. So there are plenty of good reasons that people will want to skip this episode. At the same time, this is a word that we felt like we had to talk about eventually. There's always some new controversy in the news every couple of months, if not weeks or days, where people publicly start rehashing the rules around who can use it and when and why.
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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #1: Joe Rogan is now apologizing after videos resurfaced of him using the N-word multiple times on his podcast.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #2: Winston Churchill High School in Montgomery County is dealing with a racist incident. Students were caught handing out passes, giving them permission to use the N-word.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #3: I'm going to get right to the president's interview. This was just released. First, he speaks very candidly about racism, and he uses the N-word to do so. So listen to this.
GRIGSBY BATES: Without fail, it gets messy.
DEMBY: That is right. And one other caveat here before we get too deep into this conversation - in case you all didn't already know, Karen is Black. I'm Black. So before you go around thinking you can use this word in casual conversation or you can reference this episode and be like, oh, I heard it on NPR, don't be that person. That's not what this is about.
GRIGSBY BATES: No. We can't stop anyone from using the word, and we can't stop anyone from slapping you for using the word...
DEMBY: Exactly.
GRIGSBY BATES: ...Not would we (laughter) necessarily try. So please, proceed accordingly. You have been warned. Anyway, Gene, I wanted to start out by asking you, what was the first conversation you had about this word on CODE SWITCH because I know there's a backstory there?
DEMBY: Oh, there's a literal story because I had to write about it. It was during one of the many, many controversies in the news about what the rules are around nigger. And me and my then-editor, Matt Thompson, sat down, and we did this piece, and it was about this idea of context and consequences, right? Like, there aren't really rules around a word like this so much as there are contexts that carry (laughter) different ramifications - right? - if you use it. And what people should be endeavoring to be more mindful of is why those contexts are different and when they're shifting between those contexts. And, you know, of course, Karen, this is, like, social linguistics 101. Like, language changes depending on who the speaker is and who the audience is. That's not really a controversial thing. Like, I'm paraphrasing Ta-Nehisi Coates here, but he said, you know, he could call his wife baby, and he can call his wife sweetheart, but if her boss were to call her baby or sweetheart...
GRIGSBY BATES: Oh, no.
DEMBY: ...It might be some problems.
GRIGSBY BATES: ...(Laughter) No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
DEMBY: So, you know, like, there's a tendency to treat this word as if it operates differently than the rest of language, and that's just not true. What about you, Karen? Do you say the word? I'm curious, actually.
GRIGSBY BATES: (Laughter) My kid, who is a young adult, said to me, I don't know, a couple of years ago, you know, I've noticed that you never use that word. And I wouldn't say never, but I would say I use it way less than he and his friends do...
DEMBY: Right.
GRIGSBY BATES: ...Some of whom are Black, and some of whom are not. But yeah, no, I don't very much.
DEMBY: One of the strangest things about the conversation around this word is, like, it is uniquely radioactive, right? When I was writing that piece about this word back in the early days, of course, which - what one of the linguists I spoke to told me was that, like, this word has always been, like, an especially, like, venomous word. Like, even slave owners would have refrained from using it. It was considered very low class, like, that kind of riffraff would use. And he also said that's probably part of the reason it stuck around - right? - because it had this unique sort of frisson around it where other anti-Black slurs sort of fell by the wayside. But, you know, again, like, that's sort of the paradox of the word, is that it's both, like, verboten, and yet, it's kind of everywhere.
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DEMBY: Nigger, and all its variations, are part of pop culture in a way that feels really distinct.
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BORIS GARDINER: (Singing) Every nigger is a star.
DEMBY: Like, it's in hip-hop.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "ALRIGHT")
KENDRICK LAMAR: (Singing) Be alright. Nigga we gon' be alright...
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "JESUS WALKS")
KANYE WEST: (Singing) Niggas might snatch ya necklace. And next these niggas might jack ya Lexus...
DEMBY: It's in comedy.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "CHRIS ROCK: BRING THE PAIN")
CHRIS ROCK: ...Black people. And there's two sides - there's Black people, and there's niggas...
(LAUGHTER)
ROCK: ...And niggas have got to go.
DEMBY: It's in movies.
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BLAKE ANDERSON: (As Will Sherwood) And this is where I would insert that word.
KIERSEY CLEMONS: (As Diggy) It's nothing personal. You still my nigga, but I got to slap the shit out of you based on principle.
DEMBY: It's in books.
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JAMES BALDWIN: 'Cause I'm not a nigger. I'm a man. But if you think I'm a nigger, it means you need it.
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GRIGSBY BATES: It's clear that there's a lot to unpack about this word, so I called up someone who actually wrote a book about it.
DEMBY: I think I know the person and the book you're talking about.
GRIGSBY BATES: I'll bet you do.
RANDALL KENNEDY: I'm Randall Kennedy. I teach at Harvard Law School, and I've been there since the summer of 1984.
GRIGSBY BATES: And as we were just alluding to, Randall is also the author of a book, the title of which is "Nigger: The Strange Career Of A Troublesome Word."
DEMBY: Yep. I have that book, as it happens, on my bookshelf right now. It's kind of hard to miss. Got a black cover, with the word - that word - written out in bright white lettering.
GRIGSBY BATES: That's right. That means we each have the original version, which was published in 2002. Because the new version that was just released this month has the word written in dark gray on a black background. You can barely read it.
DEMBY: That makes sense. I mean, you probably don't want to put, like, a book that says nigger in bright white letters, like, on the stand at the front of the Barnes and Noble, you know what I mean?
GRIGSBY BATES: Not unless you want to replace the (laughter) glass in your window every other day, because people have strong feelings about it.
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KENNEDY: I wrote the book in the first place because I thought an interesting book could be written about this powerful, volatile, troubling word. It's a word that I had grown up with. It was a word that was used a lot in my household. It was a word with which I was, you know, deeply familiar. And one day when I was thinking about a lecture, I thought, well, where does this word come from? What's the history of this word? And I thought, well, I'm a lawyer. How has this word affected the law, and how has the law dealt with this word? So those were some of the questions that prompted my research. I think I was really hooked when I went to a source and asked this source - this computer source - to give me the citation for every federal court case in which the word nigger appeared. There were thousands.
GRIGSBY BATES: There were thousands.
DEMBY: Thousands. And then I did it for state courts, and then I did it for military courts. And there were just thousands and thousands and thousands. And then I just started reading.
GRIGSBY BATES: How far back did that go?
KENNEDY: Oh, that went very far back. I mean, that, you know, went back to the 19th century, certainly - early 19th century. And I just read lots and lots of cases. And then I started having to - I took notes and I started filing the cases away in various categories - arson cases, murder cases, rape cases. And then that showed me that - you know, that I was really on to something, that this is a word that warranted extended investigation and analysis.
GRIGSBY BATES: Can you give me a brief history of the word? It didn't just pop up in the 19th century. It's been around for a while, right?
KENNEDY: It's been around for a while, yeah. So, I mean, if you go to the Oxford English Dictionary, the Oxford English Dictionary gives a - you know, an etymology of the word. The word stems from Latin for black. In the United States, words or words like it appear in the 17th century. We don't know how it became a slur. I mean, the word, you know, or words like it appear, but initially they appear, you know, just as descriptions. And then the question is, well, how did this word that was a description of people - how did it become a way of referring to these people in a derogatory way, in a demeaning way? How did it become a rhetorical weapon of terror? And that's a little bit unclear, actually. We can see when people start complaining about it. So early in the 19th century, in the 1830s, there's a free Black man who writes a pamphlet, and he's complaining about racism. And he says basically, you know, why do you call us - and then he, you know, uses the infamous N-word. Why do you call us this? So clearly by then, it had become understood as a word of abuse. But how exactly that - you know, that came about, it's not altogether clear.
GRIGSBY BATES: When you wrote the book originally, and again in the new foreword of the republished book, you said you didn't really expect the word to disappear completely. And lo and behold, in the past few weeks alone, it's come up in multiple news stories. One recent example was the UCLA women's gymnastics team, which had a racial blowup, in part because a member of the team was singing, very loudly, a song that used the N-word. She was not Black. And the questions I saw people asking in response to that incident were, one, people know they're not supposed to use it, so why do some people still do that? And, two, knowing how regular this type of occurrence is, why do Black people still get so worked up when non-Black people use it?
KENNEDY: Absolutely. It remains a troublesome word. It's a singular slur. There are lots of slurs. There's lots of derogatory terms in the American language. There are all sorts of racial and ethnic put-downs. But this one really has distinguished itself. And I think one reason why it has been able to distinguish itself, or one thing that this shows us is the peculiar virulence of anti-Black racism. I mean, there's various sorts of racisms in American life. There are all sorts of ethnic and group prejudices. But, you know, why is it that of all of the slurs, this one stands alone in terms of its prevalence, in terms of the controversies that it generates?
Now, you asked me before, you know, what's changed? In a certain sort of way, not a lot has changed. Twenty years ago, this was a word that was in the background of episodes of racial atrocity. That's the case today. And every couple of months I check on this. You know, where has the word appeared? And, you know, what do I get? I get arson, murder, police brutality, racial discrimination at the workplace, all of these - and one could go on and on and on. So on the one hand, the word still is part of the soundtrack of anti-Black racism. But, of course, that does not exhaust the meaning of this word because this word is also put to other uses. You know, you could go to any number of comedy acts I think - you know, Dave Chappelle.
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DAVE CHAPPELLE: Who decided the word nigger would make Black people mad for the rest of history?
(LAUGHTER)
CHAPPELLE: How did they come up with that? Did they have, like, a big meeting back in the 1600 - order. Order.
(LAUGHTER)
CHAPPELLE: We need to figure out a name to call those Black people.
KENNEDY: Katt Williams.
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KATT WILLIAMS: White people, though, let me say this. Y'all need some nigger friends. Get you some nigger friends. Just don't ever, ever call them your nigger friends. Don't ever.
(LAUGHTER)
WILLIAMS: That'll the fuck the relationship up. There's my nigger friend.
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WILLIAMS: You guys say it all the time. What? White people, you need your nigger friends so they can tell you when shit is not appropriate.
KENNEDY: The infamous N-word is all through their performances.
GRIGSBY BATES: Yeah. If you took it out, their acts would be a lot shorter, wouldn't it (laughter)?
KENNEDY: It would be. But, you know, are they using the word to put down Black people? No. They're putting this word to comedic uses, to satirical uses. There are people who use this word in an antiracist fashion. So, you know, Dick Gregory titled his memoir "Nigger: A Memoir" (ph).
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DICK GREGORY: And what they really wanted me to do was give it a humorous title so white folks would think they was buying a joke book. And I said to Leo (ph) - I said, you know what? I'm not going to trick white folks. So I got to come up with a name, and I'm going to name it "Nigger" because I want to take this nigger snake and defang it.
KENNEDY: And he was using his memoir and that title in an - what he viewed as an anti-racist fashion. So what can I say? It's a complicated term. That's why I wrote a book about it.
GRIGSBY BATES: You say the word has been used to both create and divide communities. I'm assuming the creation is something like when you say, you know, you heard it growing up in your own household. People were using it in a different way than the people who might be using it to divide communities.
KENNEDY: Well, again, nigger or nigga or words like that have been used as terms of endearment. And they are - they can be community-forming. I mean, especially if you take the position that we - whatever, you know, we, our in-group, us - we can use this term. We're going to tell these other folks, y'all can't. You can observe us. You can like our music. You can like our fashion. You can dig what we're doing. But you cannot use this word. This is our word. Well, in that way, it's a rhetorical device for community formation. So that's what I'm - that's what I was referring to.
I mean, has it been used as a way of dividing people? Sure it's been used as a way of dividing people. I mean, throughout American history, there have been people - there have been white people who - deeply impoverished, uneducated, subjected to all sorts of mistreatment. But their bosses, their superiors tell them, hey, don't rise up against us because guess what? You might be ignorant. You might be impoverished. But guess what? You're doing better than the you-know-whos.
GRIGSBY BATES: You're still white.
KENNEDY: You're still white.
GRIGSBY BATES: Be grateful.
KENNEDY: And that, of course, has been a very powerful force in American society and, alas, still is.
GRIGSBY BATES: Knowing that this word is so toxic for so many people of African descent, why do so many white people insist on maintaining the ability to use it or insist on using it, period? You know, if it's got these ramifications, why don't you find another way to express what you're feeling?
KENNEDY: Well, I mean, of course, you know, there are many people who use this word for very traditional reasons - the traditional reason being it's a word that expresses prejudice, expresses derision, expresses, you know, the - puts right out there - makes very clear that they think that Black people are lesser. This is a very quick way and a very clear way to express that message. And clearly, you know, there are millions - in fact, and let's be real - there are tens of millions of Americans who have that sentiment, those beliefs. Now, you know, there are others. There are others who are drawn to the word for various - you know, for various reasons.
They see celebrities, you know, using this word. They see comedians. They - you know, I mean, there is a - in hip-hop. I mean, hip-hop is, you know, is very alluring. It's a very popular musical form. And this word is all through it. And there are people drawn to it. And so, you know, there are those people. But, again, I don't want to - I think it's very important to hammer home the notion that this is a word that stems from American racism. That's why, in my book, the first big stretch of the book is about the awful ways in which this word has been used. And in my new introduction - you know, in my - in the introduction to the 20th anniversary edition, I begin by detailing episodes - horrific episodes of racist violence and the way in which this word figures into that racist violence.
I do that because I want to make clear - before I get into complications, before we get into ambiguities, before we get into paradox and irony, I want to make clear that, you know, there is a reason why this word has its special place. And the reason why this word has its special place has to do with the racist use of the word. And so I - you know, I try to make that clear.
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DEMBY: All right. So there's obviously a lot more to talk about here. And it's clear, we are just getting started.
GRIGSBY BATES: Yep. After the break, Randy and I get into the always-touchy issue of who's allowed to use the word.
KENNEDY: If you use this word, you have to be aware that you are putting a tremendous burden on yourself. And one of those burdens is the burden of miscommunication - is the burden of mistake.
DEMBY: Stay with us.
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DEMBY: Gene.
GRIGSBY BATES: Karen.
DEMBY: CODE SWITCH.
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DEMBY: All right. So, Karen, you and Randall Kennedy of Harvard Law School got into the specifics of who you think can and can't - or, rather, should and shouldn't - be using the word.
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GRIGSBY BATES: There seems to be an evergreen conversation about who's entitled to use the N-word, and people feel very strongly about that. What do you think? Should anybody be able to say the word?
KENNEDY: In my view - and this is one of the more controversial stances I take in my book. In my view, yeah, anybody should be able to use this word in a nonracist way. Now, there are some people who are going to say to me that you cannot use it in a nonracist way.
GRIGSBY BATES: That using it at all is calling forth racism.
KENNEDY: Yeah. To use it at all is bad. And I - you know, I disagree with that proposition. Again, I, you know, would refer to, well, what about James Baldwin? What about Toni Morrison? What about when Martin Luther King Jr., in "Letter From A Birmingham Jail," talks about the significance of, you know, the infamous N-word? What about Malcolm X? I mean, these are all people who have written or spoken the N-word. Are you saying that that's illegitimate? Now, if someone says to me, what about white people, my view is that there ought not be boundaries in the realm of culture. So I will judge someone based not on their racial status, but on what they are doing. A Black person, by the way, can certainly use this word in a racist way, as far as I'm concerned. And if that happens, I'm against it. Just like if a white person uses this word in a racist way, I'm against it. On the other hand, if a white person is talking - you know, if I'm in a discussion with a white person about - whatever it is, and this word is pertinent, and this comes out of their mouth, no, I'm not going to - I don't object to that, no.
On the question of misunderstanding, by the way, for years and years and years, I would get emails from teenagers. Usually they were white teenagers, very often white teenagers. And basically, what they would say is, hey, listen; I hang out with my Black friends. We like rap. And what I want to know from you, you having written the book, can I say this word out loud while, you know, singing along with my friends to rap? And I got so many letters of this sort that I created a form letter.
GRIGSBY BATES: (Laughter) Did you really?
KENNEDY: Yeah, I created a form letter. And basically, what I said was, listen; thanks for your letter. Couple of points - one, I think, you know, this is a conversation that you should probably have with your friends. But, two, regardless of what your friends tell you, if you use this word, you have to be aware that you are putting a tremendous burden on yourself. And one of those burdens is the burden of miscommunication, is the burden of mistake. So it might very well be that, you know, you talk with your friends, and they know where you're coming from, and, you know, everything's OK. But then you go to a movie, and you're talking with your friends, and this word comes out of your mouth. Well, a second later, somebody who's sitting right behind you might throw a punch that lands in your jaw because, you know, they don't know about your relationship with your friend. They don't know about where you're coming from. What they do know is that you're white, and this word came out of your lips.
Now, it seems to me that one thing you ought to take into account in thinking about whether you want to use this word is the problem of mistake. And I would urge you to be prudent and to be careful. And if - you know, frankly, if you're unsure, in my view, my bottom line would be avoid, avoidance, stay away.
GRIGSBY BATES: When in doubt, don't.
KENNEDY: When in doubt, don't.
GRIGSBY BATES: Save yourself some agony.
KENNEDY: Mmm hmm.
GRIGSBY BATES: In your work, you've talked about people like Lyndon Johnson, who was famous for using the N-word quite liberally yet signed laws that empowered the very people the word refers to. How do you square that?
KENNEDY: I don't square it. I embrace the contradictions. In fact, in the - I talk about Lyndon Johnson, and one of - and I give the example, when Lyndon Johnson was right on the cusp of nominating Thurgood Marshall to be the first African American on the Supreme Court of the United States, he's talking with someone, and the person says, well, you know, you could nominate - and he gives the name of another Black jurist. And Lyndon Johnson says in - shoots back, when I put a Black person on the Supreme Court, I want everybody to know that I have put a nigger on the Supreme Court. That's what he said. And it brings together - I mean, on the one hand...
GRIGSBY BATES: What did he mean by that?
KENNEDY: What he meant by that was he was indicating that he wanted to strike a blow for racial justice. That's - you know, that's part of what he was doing. But he was also indicating to the person with whom he was speaking that he understood that there would be a lot of people looking on who would use this word, and he was also indicating that, you know, he came up in a Texas in which this was the word used for African Americans. And so, I mean, he was - there was a lot going on there. Anti-racist - he was being partly satirical. He was partly, you know, realpolitik. All of those things were going on in his use of the infamous N-word in that one episode.
GRIGSBY BATES: And also, perhaps indicating that he wasn't necessarily appointing an accommodationist, somebody for whom getting along was going to be the ultimately - ultimately, the most important thing, that there might be some pushback.
KENNEDY: Oh, yeah. And I mean, Lyndon Johnson, he - you know, he knew that he was appointing Mr. Civil Rights. And again, you know, we shouldn't - you know, I mean, Lyndon Johnson - there were others, and certainly there have been Black Americans of varying ideological persuasions who have used this word. Again, you know, I'll go back - autobiographical. I'll go autobiographical. In my household, this word was used a lot. Both my parents used it, particularly my father, and he used it in every - he used it to - in settings in which he was describing people that he admired. That's a smart nigga. And he used it in - and you could tell from his, you know, intonation of his voice - he used it in a way to put down people. That Uncle Tom nigger should be ashamed of himself. But, I mean, did he use the infamous N-word? Absolutely. And that's - you know, that's how I grew up, like I say, in a setting in which it was liberally used. And, you know, I'm sure that there are many, many, many African American households in which similar sorts of discussions have emerged.
GRIGSBY BATES: The N-word is a tripwire for a lot of academics who maybe need to use it or have occasion to use it when they're actually quoting something. And yet, there's this hesitation by many people. You feel strongly that if people need to say it, they should say it. Why?
KENNEDY: First of all, there's more than hesitation. There are many, many, many academics who would not mention the title of Dick Gregory's memoir. I think that what they would - they might very well - they would engage in bowdlerization. They might say, N-word, a memoir. But they would not mention the title. I know this to be the case because I - you know, I - there are plenty of people who won't mention the title of my book. I'd say now it seems like every month there's some teacher either at the high-school level or in higher education who is being disciplined because they are reading maybe from my book or somebody else's book, or maybe they're reading something that was, you know, written 200 years ago and that has this word in it. But this is a real thing in academia. And there's a real fight being waged.
Now, in my view, the proper thing to do is to quote accurately. And so, you know, I did not like it when that documentary was made about James Baldwin, "I Am Not Your Negro." That's not what he said. He said, I am not your nigger. He was very clear. He - that wasn't just a cavalier thing. He had a purpose for how we use the term. And I don't - I think this bowdlerization, I think that this cover-up, this denial, is bad. It is tampering with our cultural history, and we need to - we need realism. We need to be very attentive to facts, even facts that we view as ugly.
GRIGSBY BATES: When you have said that you believe that there shouldn't be boundaries and that you have gotten blowback from that, what kind of responses have you gotten from people who say, hell yeah, there should be boundaries?
KENNEDY: Oh, yeah. I mean, I've gotten a lot of blowback. And by the way, I should say I've gotten a lot of blowback from thoroughly reasonable people, people whom I like a lot and respect a lot. And what they basically say to me is we're talking about a word that has blood dripping off it.
I'll never forget when the book was first published, one of the first places I went for - on a book tour was a bookstore in Philadelphia. At the end of the discussion, an elderly Black man held up his hand, and he said, I've been here. I've been listening carefully. I understand your theory. I understand your theory, but I reject it. I reject it. And the reason why I reject it is because when I hear the word nigger, it makes me think of when I was put in the back of the bus. And if I wanted to live, I had to stay in the back of the bus. It makes me think of when I was deprived of the right to vote. And the word that you're talking about, that's what that word means to me. And I want all of that to be done. I want that to be in the past. I don't want - I understand what you're talking about, but this word is so horrific that I, frankly - this man said to me, I do not trust the ability of people to draw the sorts of distinctions that you are drawing.
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KENNEDY: And I thought that was a very powerful position that he took. I really took that on board. I disagree with him, but I do not think that it is an unreasonable position to take.
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GRIGSBY BATES: Once again, that was Randall Kennedy, a professor at Harvard Law School and author of the book, "Nigger: The Strange Career Of A Troublesome Word." The 20th-anniversary edition of that book was just released this month 'cause that word is still very much with us.
DEMBY: It sure is. And that, y'all, is our show.
(SOUNDBITE OF PODINGTON BEAR'S "SUPERSTANDIN")
DEMBY: We want to hear from you. As always, you can follow us on IG and Twitter. On both of those platforms, we're @nprcodeswitch. You can email us at codeswitch@npr.org and subscribe to our newsletter by going to newsletters.npr.org.
GRIGSBY BATES: This episode was produced by Summer Thomad with help from Alyssa Jeong Perry and edited by Leah Donnella. And a shoutout to the rest of the CODE SWITCH fam - Kumari Devarajan, Jess Kung, Christina Cala and Steve Drummond. Our intern is Nathan Pugh. Our art director is LA Johnson. I'm Karen Grigsby Bates.
DEMBY: And I'm Gene Demby. Be easy, y'all.
GRIGSBY BATES: See ya.
(SOUNDBITE OF PODINGTON BEAR'S "SUPERSTANDIN")
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