Losing Roe v. Wade, plus, Summer of Books : It's Been a Minute Protests erupted across the nation this week in the wake of a leaked Supreme Court brief suggesting the landmark "Roe v. Wade" abortion ruling will be overturned. The decision could endanger people seeking medical care and set a precedent for challenging other reproductive rights. Guest host Elise Hu discusses patients' concerns with health and gender reporter Shefali Luthra of "The 19th" and Dr. Jennifer Kerns, an OBGYN and associate professor at the University of California, San Francisco.

Then, Elise chats with authors Jasmine Guillory and Emma Straub about the best books to read this summer. They also play Who Said That.

Some books mentioned in this episode:
By the Book - Jasmine Guillory
This Time Tomorrow - Emma Straub
Love Radio - Ebony LaDelle
Funny You Should Ask - Elissa Sussman
Bomb Shelter - Mary Laura Philpott
Sorrow and Bliss - Meg Mason
The Lifestyle - Taylor Hahn
I'll Be You - Janelle Brown

You can follow us on Twitter @NPRItsBeenAMin and email us at ibam@npr.org.

The consequences of losing Roe v. Wade, plus Summer of Books

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  • Transcript

ISABEL HU: Hi. This is Isabel. I'm here to introduce the host, my mom, Elise. All right, let's start the show.


You're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Elise Hu. On Monday night, my 5-year-old was lingering too long in the bath, and I checked my phone. And probably, like a lot of you, a friend had texted me with the news. A draft opinion leaked from the Supreme Court shows it's poised to overturn Roe v. Wade, the 1973 ruling that legalized abortion nationally. Justice Samuel Alito wrote it. It reads, it is time to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people's elected representatives. Given the steady erosion of reproductive freedom over the past decade or more, the fall of Roe is something many were anticipating. After all, about half of U.S. states have either already severely restricted abortion - passing laws forcing clinics to close or criminalizing providers - or are ready to ban the procedure if and when the high court overturns Roe.

SHEFALI LUTHRA: This wasn't a surprise, and yet reading the words on Monday night, seeing how frankly they were written, it's different, right? It's different when you see it.

HU: That's journalist Shefali Luthra. As a health reporter at The 19th, a news site on gender and politics, Luthra talks regularly with those seeking reproductive care and with physicians who provide abortions. One of them is Dr. Jennifer Kerns, an OB-GYN at the University of California, San Francisco.

JENNIFER KERNS: Reading the writings of Justice Alito kind of lays bare just how removed Justice Alito and the rest of the court in the majority opinion are from this issue. It's sort of like we're living in two different worlds. You know, when you sit in front of patients and hear their stories and see them sort of moving through their lives, it feels like a very different world than that that is painted by Justice Alito.

HU: Dr. Kerns has been traveling from the Bay Area to Oklahoma City to provide reproductive care, given the outsized need in some parts of the country. So we called Shefali Luthra and Jennifer Kerns to help us process what a post-Roe America will look like. Dr. Kerns began by sharing a little about her patients.

KERNS: You know, it's really people from all walks of life. Just a couple weeks ago, I was in Oklahoma. The clinic has been seeing a lot of patients from Texas since SB8 was enacted in Texas. And those patients are, you know, people who are traveling anywhere from three to 10 hours to Oklahoma City for their appointments. First of all, many of them had very similar stories, which was something like, I missed a period, I took a pregnancy test, found out right away I was pregnant, got into a clinic, and they detected a heartbeat. So it was sort of like some group of people who were best-case scenario in terms of detecting pregnancy, and they were still incredibly delayed and burdened in terms of accessing abortion.

And, of course, that doesn't paint a picture of the scores of other people who couldn't make it out of state, who didn't have the means, didn't have the social support, didn't have the funds or detected pregnancy much later. And that delay pushed them past any gestational limits.

HU: Wow.

KERNS: I saw patients who really talked about their decision to undergo abortion as a decision that was right for their family. I saw one patient who had four kids.

HU: Yeah.

KERNS: She was in her mid-20s. She had just gotten a new job and was looking forward to some economic stability in her family...

HU: Sure.

KERNS: ...And really felt like this was the way that she would be the best parent to her existing four kids. So it was really - it's a decision that comes from a place of love.

And I think what's - what was really just a stark contrast on Monday night when I read some of Justice Alito's writings in the Politico report - you know, his writings and the anti-abortion movement have really sought to dehumanize people who seek and undergo abortion and to dehumanize people who work in abortion care. And, you know, even the language that Justice Alito uses by using the word abortionists - incredibly dehumanizing language. The way that the movement - that the anti-abortion movement talks about patients who undergo abortion is incredibly dehumanizing. And so my experience, my colleagues' experiences, the experiences of patients I see is actually one that's totally opposite that. It's one of deep connection to humanity.

HU: Shefali, when the federal protection for abortion falls, as it is expected, walk us through what is likely to happen. What can we expect the immediate impact to look like?

LUTHRA: So every state is different, and there are - right? - 13 states that have these so-called trigger laws on the books - right? - laws that are meant to ban abortion as soon as Roe is overturned. Five more states that don't have trigger law - or, yes - also have these laws from prior to 1973 that would ban abortion but haven't been enforced - right? - for decades. Some of them...


LUTHRA: ...Go back to the 1800s. What the question there is, what will it take for these laws to be enforced? And some of these trigger laws are written so they would take effect right away. Some require the attorney general to certify the opinion. Others require action from the governor. Some will take a month to take effect. With these pre-Roe bans, there is a lot of open questioning about whether they can be enforced immediately or whether...

HU: Yeah.

LUTHRA: ...They have to be repassed. There is actually a lawsuit - or two lawsuits in Michigan right now to answer that very question. It's very possible that we see - right? - 18 states ready to ban abortion within weeks of Roe being overturned, especially given how clear the language of this opinion appears to be.

HU: A decision like this obviously affects everyone in various ways, but who will experience the most direct effects?

LUTHRA: It's the people who have the fewest resources to travel - right? - the ones who have historically been marginalized by our system. Because if you live in a small town in southern Texas - right? - if you live near the border, it can cost hundreds or thousands of dollars to get somewhere where you'll be able to have a legal abortion. That's money that people don't have. And those with means will be able to find states where they can access care. But the people for whom, in some ways, an unwanted pregnancy could pose the greatest burden are the ones who will be affected the most.

KERNS: You know, it's estimated that somewhere around 300,000 people will be affected by this decision in terms of living in states that are projected to ban abortion. And the projection is that about a third of those people might be able to manage leaving the state. So that leaves, you know, a couple hundred thousand people that we're talking about who will be denied access to an abortion.

And we know what that looks like. We've learned this story before. We've learned it in this country. We've learned it through research. More recently, we know that being denied an abortion, you know, leads to increased poverty, having to stay in abusive relationships, existing children staying in poverty, not being able - the woman not being able to achieve educational outcomes, as well as physical health problems.

HU: Yeah, this is to say nothing of the health risks of pregnancy...

KERNS: Correct.

HU: ...And labor, right?

KERNS: Exactly. Exactly.

HU: Well, in the meantime, what kind of workarounds are you seeing in states where abortion access is already restricted, Shefali?

LUTHRA: So obviously, travel is a big one. One thing that we're talking about and that has emerged in Texas is the possibility of ordering pills online, correct? And we did see some folks order pills in Texas through this organization called Aid Access - right? - which sends medication - abortion pills from Europe.

Now, this is really complicated because we know it's very safe, but it is something that is outlawed in a few states. And even in states where it is not, there's a real risk of being prosecuted under other sorts of charges. We just saw in Texas - right? - a woman who allegedly tried to induce her own abortion was thrown in prison. And the charges were dropped eventually. But what this really speaks to is that this so-called self-managed abortion - right? - through medication - it is safe, but there are real risks. And the folks who are most likely to bear the risks are those who are already most often under police scrutiny - right? - most often people who are lower income, people of color.

HU: Gosh.

LUTHRA: And at the same time, there is, in all likelihood, going to be a really strong push from Republican state lawmakers, especially those who've succeeded in outlawing abortion, to go for these pills next - right? - to restrict when and how they can be mailed, to put new penalties for trying to induce an abortion on one's own. And that will only make it harder for this to fill in those gaps.

KERNS: Yeah, that's exactly right. This is not the norm in our country, to be accessing abortion outside of the medical system. And yet with the restrictions and then with this pending post-Roe world that we're going to be in, it is likely that self-managed abortion will be safer for some people, meaning it'll be safer to stay outside of the medical system. You know, we - what we saw in Texas with the person who was arrested was that there was a disclosure of this by medical personnel. And there are states that are moving to require health care providers to disclose this kind of information.

HU: Wow. Some states are going to strip health care privacy, too, then.

KERNS: That's exactly right. And this is very different state by state - what health care providers are required to disclose to authorities.

HU: OK, Dr. Kerns and Shefali, let's flash forward to five years from now. What will abortion and other reproductive health care look like in America? What does a potentially post-Roe world look like?

LUTHRA: Oh, boy. There's a lot of ways this can go. I think it is pretty fair to say that, if not a majority, that a substantial number of states will have banned access to abortion. We will see really intense need in blue states - right? - where folks are traveling for care. The bigger questions, and the ones I don't think we have answers to - there's two. One is given what happens in federal elections with Congress and with the White House, is there momentum for a federal abortion ban? And this is something that some Republican senators are talking about. And there's a question as to whether Republicans are willing to take that step. But it is on the table and something we should be talking about.

And then the other thing that this draft opinion really brings to mind - right? - is what comes after abortion, right? There's been a lot of talk for years about whether the anti-abortion movement moves on to contraception next. A lot of the folks I've talked to who are involved in the anti-abortion movement think that Plan B, the morning-after pill, should be limited or prohibited, as well. And even looking beyond reproductive health, the draft opinion - right? - raises questions about gay marriage protections. It raises questions about interracial marriage protections. And once we go down this path of overturning Roe v Wade, there is a real possibility for a dramatic change in the rights that have been won over the past 50 years or so.

KERNS: Yeah, boy, it's such a rollback of where I think we all thought that we were. It's like a blip in time since SB8 was enacted in Texas. And I'm already hearing stories from some of my colleagues in Texas, of people with life-threatening ectopic pregnancies...

HU: Oh, gosh.

KERNS: ...Which is a pregnancy that implants outside of the uterus...

HU: That's very dangerous.

KERNS: ...And - very dangerous, and needs to be treated immediately - stories of those patients being transferred outside of Texas. So the fear that is going on among health care providers is real. And the people who are victims of this all are, you know, sort of everyday women. I don't know the way that this is going to go politically. What I do know, you know, is that one year, two year - two years, five years from now, we're going to just see suffering kind of writ large. We're going to see a lot more morbidity. We're going to see an increase in maternal mortality. That is a - that's a story...

HU: Which is already high in the U.S. compared to the rest of the world.

KERNS: Correct. You know, I think we're all bracing ourselves for being on the end of this and trying to figure out how to best support people in their health and in their lives.

HU: What kind of conversations or reactions have you heard that you would like to hear more of or you haven't heard discussed in the fallout from this SCOTUS leak that maybe we should kind of keep an ear out for?

LUTHRA: I think the voice of patients is just so incredibly important. Last night, I spoke with a woman who had traveled from the Dallas-Fort Worth area to Oklahoma City to get an abortion. And we were talking about how she felt about the Texas ban and the Oklahoma ban and the decision to overturn Roe v. Wade. And what she felt most was, like, offended because she thought about this a lot, and to have this thrown at her that she hadn't - it was really dehumanizing. And I just think that these are the voices that we don't spend time emphasizing when we talk about the national story of abortion - or not as much time as we should. And these are the people who matter because they are the ones who got pregnant. They are the ones who sat with this. And in my experience, talking to patients, it's not something they take lightly.

HU: Shefali Luthra is a health reporter for The 19th and Dr. Jennifer Kearns is an OB-GYN at the University of California, San Francisco. She's been traveling to Oklahoma to provide reproductive care. Thank you so much to both of you. I know it's been a crazy week.

LUTHRA: Thank you.

KERNS: Thank you so much.

HU: Coming up, a slight change of pace. We're talking books. I chat with authors Jasmine Guillory and Emma Straub about what we should be reading this summer.


HU: It's May, and that means we're putting away our winter wardrobes in favor of summer wear. As the weather warms up, I'm putting away my winter books, too. I've been reading a ton of nonfiction, and I'm eager to shove it aside in favor of snappy, fun summer reading. But as high as that stack of books on my nightstand already is, I always love new recommendations, so I called up authors Jasmine Guillory and Emma Straub to get their picks for what to read when the sun stays out real late and what goes into a great summer read. All right, let's get to it. Enjoy.

Can you first start by introducing yourselves and how we might know you?

JASMINE GUILLORY: I am Jasmine Guillory. I have seven books out now. My new book, "By The Book," just came out, and you might know me from "The Wedding Date" or "The Proposal," which were my first two. And I write romance novels.

EMMA STRAUB: So I am Emma Straub. I am Jasmine Guillory's biggest fan.


STRAUB: I am a novelist and a bookstore owner. I own Bookstore Magic in Brooklyn, N.Y. And my new book, "This Time Tomorrow," comes out in May.

HU: So exciting that y'all both have books about to come out or just out. Y'all are here with me today to talk about summer reading. I know it's still spring, but Memorial Day is just around the corner and I want my stack ready. So is there something - first, just to kind of establish this conversation, is there something about summer and going into this season that makes reading or the way you think about reading different?

GUILLORY: For me, for summer reading - I want books that I can, like - I think about the books that I want to read if I'm in a hammock. I haven't actually been in a hammock for a long time...


GUILLORY: ...But that's what I picture in my mind. Like, I want to be there. I want a book that I can just, like, open and then, two hours later, come back to Earth and realize like, oh, my gosh, it's been so long, but I've been deep into this book. Like, those are the books that I think of when summer reading - like, plenty of time on my hands to just throw myself inside of a book.

HU: Yeah, that makes sense.

STRAUB: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think, for me, it's like there's no, like - there are no genre requirements or even subject matter requirements for summer reading. It has much more to do with, like, the propulsiveness (ph) that I want. Like, I really want something that I don't want to put down. That's my favorite kind of book to read in the summer.

GUILLORY: Yes, exactly. I totally agree.

HU: Do y'all's books fit in that category? Because I want to give you a chance to talk about your books that are coming out.

GUILLORY: I mean, I will speak for Emma. I think her books absolutely do.

HU: You know what? Let's do that. Jasmine, why don't you talk about Emma? And then, Emma, why don't you talk about Jasmine?

STRAUB: I love it.

GUILLORY: I think that's a great idea. I love Emma's books. I cannot wait to read this next one, even though I have been told it's going to make me cry, which is not a thing I usually like to do for books. But I will do it for Emma because every time I open one of her books, I never want to put it down.

HU: Emma, it's called "This Time Tomorrow." Will you give us a quick synopsis?

STRAUB: Yes. Yes. Thank you, Jasmine, first of all. I love you. And I - the check is in the mail.


STRAUB: So "This Time Tomorrow" is about a 40-year-old woman who has a dying science fiction writer father. And it's her 40th birthday, and everything kind of sucks. And then she goes out and gets too drunk and wakes up, and it's the morning of her 16th birthday in 1996.

HU: Oh.

STRAUB: So it's what I like to call my autobiographical time-travel novel because, you know, this is how it happened for me. How am I to tell other people how their time travel works? But this is how mine works.

HU: What was 1996 like?

STRAUB: For me personally, I was 16. Life was awesome. I was a very heavy smoker, and my parents bought me a case of champagne for my birthday party, and everybody barfed.


STRAUB: So 16 was awesome. 1996 was awesome.

HU: The halcyon days of youth.


HU: All right, Jasmine, your book is called "By The Book" - or your latest book is called "By The Book." Tell us a little more.

GUILLORY: So "By The Book" is a contemporary reimagining of "Beauty And The Beast" with a Black woman as the princess in this story. It is published by Disney so there's a little - I tried to sprinkle a little bit of magic throughout the book - not real magic, but, you know, just - I wanted sort of that magical feeling.

Isabelle is a publishing assistant. She's sort of feeling a little discontented with her life. She hears kind of a side comment from her boss about this guy who is supposed to write his memoir and hasn't done it. He is a former child star. He sort of disappeared after signing this big deal for his memoir. So she goes to his house and kind of bangs on his door...

HU: Oh.

GUILLORY: ...To see if he will deliver the book and then ends up moving in with him as they work on his book together. And then they fall in love.


HU: Well, yes, I imagined that would be the case.


HU: Emma, how do you know Jasmine, and what are you excited about with her book?

STRAUB: OK. Well, thank God that Jasmine Guillory is as productive and prolific as she is because every single time Jasmine publishes a book, I read it instantly - like, immediately. If it comes into my house, I put down whatever I'm reading, and I start reading hers.

HU: Aw.

STRAUB: It's really fun. It's really fun to see someone whose work I love play with this story that we all know.

HU: Yes.

STRAUB: And Jasmine's books are always smart and funny and sexy. And one of the things that I love about "By The Book" in particular - that there is so much food in this book.


HU: Yes. I'm so excited.

STRAUB: There is so much food. They're always eating. And then when they eat something delicious - honestly, Jasmine, I - like, I have never seen this written in a book before. I think that's why I'm so fixated on it. But when they eat something delicious for dinner, they have more...


STRAUB: ...You know? It's like - it's something so absurd that, like, I do all the time. Like, if I'm making a lasagna, I'm not stopping after one piece. I'm, like, going to go and, like, pretend that I'm not having a whole other piece, but, like...

GUILLORY: You are.

STRAUB: I am. And that is what the characters in this book do.

HU: Oh, I love that.

STRAUB: And I just - I love it. I love it. So thank you, Jasmine.

GUILLORY: Oh, thank you, Emma. You're wonderful.

STRAUB: You're welcome.

GUILLORY: I did not pay her to say this, but I will now.


HU: I think you have a lot of us out in the audience that would say the same thing. So I'm really excited about all this food conversation, too.

All right, I want to hear the tried-and-true books that you would recommend to any friend looking for things to read on their vacations or even at home this summer. Jasmine, you want to take it first?

GUILLORY: Yeah, I'll start. So my first recommendation - it's a young adult book called "Love Radio." It's by Ebony LaDelle. It comes out at the end of May. It's a young adult romance about these two Black teenagers in Detroit. You know, she's a girl who hates all things romance. She can't wait to get out of Detroit and go to college. But he's this radio star, and he has this show called The Teenage Love Doctor, where he gives advice to people about their relationships. And he is trying to get her to go out with him and bets her he can get her to fall in love with him in three days. And so it's just, like, such a fun read. There's so much joy in it, but it's also about real things that they're dealing with - about family and growing up and leaving home. And I just loved it to pieces.

HU: Emma, why don't you share one of yours?

STRAUB: Yeah. OK, so I will also start with the romance on my list, which is called "Funny You Should Ask" by Elissa Sussman. This is one of those books that, like, even before I opened it, I just knew how much I was going to love it. It's about a journalist who writes a profile of a movie star that is quite sexy, and it gets very popular. And, like, he's - like, his star is on the rise, and it becomes sort of a part of their story. And the novel follows up with these characters, like 10 years after, when he is sort of, like - he's sort of on the decline, but she has, like, published books. And, like, this essay about him has sort of made her famous. And it's a romance, and it's just - it's really funny. And I just - it was one of those books where I was just like, oh, no, no, I'm just going to read one more chapter. I'm just going to read one more chapter - which is the best kind of book, of course.

HU: I like that you have both introduced recommendations that have, A, a radio star, and, B, a journalist in them. Thank you.


HU: Thank you.


HU: All right. What else? What else?

GUILLORY: This is Jasmine. I'm going to go - I'm going to switch gears. And this recommendation is about a memoir. It's called "Bomb Shelter" by Mary Laura Philpott. It's a memoir and essays. It reads so fast. It starts with an incident where her teenage son has a seizure in the middle of the night. She and her husband wake up and hear this and sort of go running. And then the whole book is sort of - goes forward and backwards about their family and their lives and how they all sort of come together about this incident and what happens. And it's just about, like, how to deal with, you know, someone that you love going through something scary. You have your own anxiety about it. You're trying to be there for them, what to do.

It sounds heartbreaking, and it is. But it's also so funny. I laughed so hard during parts of this book. And I read it, I think, in two or three days. I mean, it was a quick, short read. And also just, like, I couldn't stop reading it. So many people will really understand this book because I think so many of us have gone through this feeling of like, a loved one has a sudden emergency. What do I do? And often it's, I can't do really anything. I just have to be there for them. And I just loved everything about this book.

HU: I'm glad you brought up funny because, Emma, is there a particular funny one in your list?

STRAUB: There is, Elise. How did you know? How did you know?

HU: I didn't. But I'm so glad.

STRAUB: You know, it's funny that, like, funny books are quite tricky. It happens all the time that people come into the bookstore and they're like, I want something kind of funny. And it's - it can be a real stumper. I'm going to give you the book that made me laugh the most recently. It's called "Sorrow And Bliss" by a woman named Meg Mason. It's sort of like a Sally Rooney sort of feeling but 10 years older. Like it's about a British woman who has, again, been a journalist. It's romantic. It's sexy. It's hilarious. It confronts mental health issues in a way that I just hadn't seen before. It also sort of reminded me of "Fleabag," "Fleabag" a little bit. It's got sort of "Fleabag" vibes.

HU: That's going to get some readers.

STRAUB: Yeah. So if you liked "Fleabag," I heartily recommend "Sorrow And Bliss."

GUILLORY: I want to read that. I've never read that.

HU: Jasmine, let's round out the rest of your list.

GUILLORY: So this is another book that I just, like, ripped right through. It's called "The Lifestyle" by Taylor Hahn. It's her debut novel. I picked it up one night, and it was that exact experience where, like, hours later, I was like, oh, I guess it's time to go to bed.

HU: I love it when that happens.

GUILLORY: But I just got so deep into the story. So it starts with a woman who thinks that she has her whole life together. She has everything just how she wants it. Everything is perfect. And then one day, late at night at work - she and her husband are both partners at the same law firm. She walks into her husband's office, and he's in there having sex with an associate. And, you know, sort of her whole life that she kind of thought was perfect is kind of falling apart. But she's like, nope, I'm going to fix it. And her way of fixing it is that they should become swingers. It's just, like, such a funny, fun story because - and then, you know, at a party, of course, she runs into an ex-boyfriend. I'm not going to spoil what happens, but I just, like, had so much fun reading this book. The whole story was just so fun to read, and I can't wait to talk to other people about it.

HU: And we are going to have the list all on our website. So this is going to be available at npr.org for those of you who have missed the titles. Emma, anything else on your list that you want to talk about?

STRAUB: Yeah. Yeah. So one book is called "I'll Be You" by Janelle Brown. It's a mystery thriller-y (ph) book. Suspenseful, I would call it. It's a suspenseful book about two sisters who are, I think, sort of Olsen twins inspired, like, former child actors who are now adults. One of them has a totally perfect life, and one of them is, like, the disaster. And it's about what happens when the one who has the, you know, supposedly perfect life basically joins a cult. And so you've got child stars. You've got drug addiction. You've got cult. Like, it's got everything one could possibly need. And Janelle Brown is one of my favorite contemporary writers for relationships between women. In this book, it's really all about this relationship between these sisters who are, at this point, quite estranged. I love it. I love her books. And this is a great one.

HU: Getting through the whole stack of all these books that sound so engrossing is tough, for me, anyway, because it's not like I'm on vacation for the entire summer. So what tips do you have to make time to get through our summer reading lists?

GUILLORY: For me, I have always been a person who just brings a book everywhere I go. We're on our phones too much, I think, sometimes in this world. So it's nice to, like...

HU: What? Really?

GUILLORY: I know, I know. Terrible, right? And so if you have, like, that time when you're waiting in line, or when you're, you know, on the subway or you're waiting to pick up something, you can just pull out a book and, like, spend those 10, 15 minutes deep into another story. I also am a big, like, I-read-in-the-bathtub-every-night person. That is where I get, like, the bulk of my reading done. There's some books where I have, like, gotten in the bathtub, opened it, and then, like, come to life three hours later, shivering, because I was...

STRAUB: (Laughter).

GUILLORY: ...So deep in the book. But...

HU: I'm always scared I'm going to electrocute myself because...

GUILLORY: (Laughter).

HU: ...I read on a Kindle.

GUILLORY: Yeah, with the e-reader. I know, I know. I love reading books in many different formats - I like e-books, I like paper books - but I feel like the bathtub is a good place for the paper books...


GUILLORY: ...Because I don't mind dropping my books in the bathtub. I don't want to electrocute myself with a device. So, yeah. So I think just, like, finding your, like, snatches of time where you can read is great for me.

STRAUB: I totally agree with Jasmine. I think it's all about just having that book in your bag no matter what. I also have started in the past few years listening to audiobooks. I hope you don't mind if I give a quick plug to Libro.fm, which is my preferred audiobook company because it's independent and works with independent bookstores. And so you can buy audiobooks and some - a percentage of it goes to your favorite independent bookstore, which I love.

But I - yeah, I, like, will just listen to books. Like, I listened recently to Mel Brooks' most recent memoir. I don't know if he's written other ones. But it's called "All About Me!" And I listened to it, and it's so wonderful. And Mel Brooks just kept me company while I was, like, doing the dishes...


STRAUB: ...And folding the laundry, all of those things. So that is a - like, a really time-efficient way to sneak in more reading. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's - the beautiful thing about owning a bookstore is that I have more books than I could ever read in my entire lifetime.

HU: What a dream.

STRAUB: Don't you feel, Jasmine, that, like, every time you get to pick what to read next, it's just, like, a little gift to yourself?

GUILLORY: Yeah, absolutely. That Scholastic Book Fair feeling, right?



HU: I relate to that.

GUILLORY: That joy of, like, what do I get to read next? Oh, it never goes away.

HU: I got to say, as you all have been sharing these recommendations, I've just been sitting here writing notes of the book...


HU: ...Titles, even though I know that I can go back and replay this interview. Thank you so much for all these great books. I know I'm already adding a bunch to my list. Emma and Jasmine, thank you.

GUILLORY: Thank you so much. It's been so great talking to you and talking to Emma.

STRAUB: Yes. Such a pleasure. Thank you, thank you.

HU: And will the two of you stick around to play a quick game?


GUILLORY: Yes. I'm scared but yes.


HU: OK, fantastic.


HU: Who Said That? is coming up next. That's after the break.


HU: OK. We're now going to play a game called Who Said That?


KANDI BURRUSS: Who had been saying that?

PORSHA WILLIAMS: Who said that?

HU: We're going to do things a little differently this week. Here are the rules. I'll share a quote from a book that's been adapted for the screen, and you'll guess who said it or which TV series or movie it's from. They're all very popular because I know you ladies were a little nervous...

GUILLORY: Yeah (laughter).

HU: ...About playing Who Said That?

STRAUB: (Laughter).

HU: And I'll even give you more hints if you...


HU: ...Need them.


HU: There's no buzzers. You can just yell out the answer. And, as usual, zero prizes. You win nothing, just bragging rights. But this is still a competition. We're in capitalism, after all.

STRAUB: Oh, God.

GUILLORY: All right. OK.

HU: All right. Are you two ready?


STRAUB: We're ready, yeah.

GUILLORY: As ready as we'll be.

HU: OK. Here's the first quote. "I wasn't aware that my eye line fell under the jurisdiction of school rules." Maybe I should say it faster because I feel like the character would deliver it faster. "I wasn't aware that my eye line fell under the jurisdiction of school rules."

STRAUB: Oh, my God. I literally have no idea. Jasmine, do you have any idea?

GUILLORY: The Jenny Han book - what was that?

STRAUB: "Lara Jean?"


HU: Eh.

STRAUB: Oh my God.

GUILLORY: Yeah, we need a better clue.

HU: All right, here's a hint. I should have read the quote in an Irish accent.

GUILLORY: Oh. The...

STRAUB: Is it "Normal People?"



HU: One point for Emma Straub. That was Marianne Sheridan, the protagonist in "Normal People" by Sally Rooney, adapted for TV by Hulu. That quote is from a scene where Marianne is sitting in class, looking out the window, and her teacher eventually calls her out.


MUIRIS CROWLEY: (As Mr. Kerrigan) Marianne, something outside caught your attention?

DAISY EDGAR-JONES: (As Marianne) I suppose so.

CROWLEY: (As Mr. Kerrigan) Eyes forward, OK?

HU: And Marianne's response to her teacher is that she didn't know her eye line fell under the jurisdiction of school rules.

STRAUB: Got it.

HU: Did y'all watch the show?



GUILLORY: (Laughter).

HU: I assume you read the book.

STRAUB: I did read the book.


STRAUB: I did not watch the show. Sorry, Sally.

HU: The show was very well done. Very well done. OK. Point for Emma. That's Emma, one; Jasmine, nothing. But this is your chance to tie it up.

GUILLORY: (Laughter) OK.

HU: "If you're going to be sad, you might as well be sad in Paris." I tried to say it like the character.


HU: I don't know if that worked. I'm not an actress. I'm a journalist.

STRAUB: If you're going to be sad, you might as well be sad in Paris. I mean, is "Emily In Paris" from a book?

GUILLORY: I don't think that was a book.


STRAUB: OK, forget it. I didn't watch it anyway (laughter).

GUILLORY: I know. That was my - that was going to be my first guess, but then I was like, I don't think that's a book.

HU: OK, here's my hint. Go back to the mid-aughts. It's a little earlier zeitgeist.

STRAUB: Oh, my God. Elise, you are, like...

GUILLORY: (Laughter).

HU: Just letting y'all flail about. OK. OK.

STRAUB: ...Just going to be so disappointed in us.

HU: Here's more hints, more hints. XO, XO.

GUILLORY: "Gossip Girl."


HU: That was Blair Waldorf. Blair Waldorf, the character who owned more headbands than any one person should reasonably have.


LEIGHTON MEESTER: (As Blair Waldorf) What are you doing this weekend?

BLAKE LIVELY: (As Serena van der Woodsen) Eating leftovers and feeling horrible.

MEESTER: (As Blair Waldorf) No, you're coming to Paris. If you're going to be sad, you might as well be sad in Paris.

HU: Did either of y'all read or watch "Gossip Girl"?

GUILLORY: Oh, I watched it religiously. Yeah.

HU: Oh, good. Good, good, good. OK.


HU: OK. For the winning point, final quote - "If you were mine, you wouldn't be able to sit down for a week."


GUILLORY: "Bridgerton?"


STRAUB: "Fifty Shades Of Grey" or whatever...


HU: Emma got it with "Fifty Shades of Grey," though "Bridgerton" was a really good guess.

STRAUB: (Laughter) Yeah, I know.

HU: "Fifty Shades of Grey." That was a quote from Christian Grey in the movie "Fifty Shades of Grey," originally a book series by E.L. James. And it started out as Twilight fan fiction.



HU: Christian says this...


HU: You're like, yeah. Really great turns of phrase in there. He says this to his love interest, Anastasia Steele, as part of his seduction.


JAMIE DORNAN: (As Christian Grey) If you were mine, you wouldn't be able to sit down for a week.

HU: I don't even know. I...


HU: ...Don't know if it's a reference to - I assume it's a reference to spanking.

GUILLORY: I think so. I think so.

STRAUB: I think so.

HU: OK. Emma Straub, you won. Congratulations.

GUILLORY: Congratulations, Emma.

STRAUB: I feel so proud of my performance.

HU: That was really good.

STRAUB: Oh, yes. Jasmine, don't you think we just did, like, a smashing job?

GUILLORY: Yeah, we were really incredible at that game.


HU: All right. Thanks for playing, authors Jasmine Guillory and Emma Straub. Thank you both for joining us today, too.

GUILLORY: Thank you so much for having us.

STRAUB: Yes, a delightful time.


EVA HU: Hi. I'm Elise's daughter, Eva. Now it's time to end the show like we always do. Every week, listeners share the best thing that happened to them all week. We encourage folks to brag, and they do. Let's hear them.


SHANTENELLE MCLENDON: Hi, my name is Shantenelle McLendon (ph), and I live in a suburb outside of Cleveland, Ohio. I wanted to report something so happy, but also that was so sad. Like many parents, it's a bittersweet experience having to watch your children grow up. Well, she came to our bedroom this morning, and she told me that I could sleep in and she was going to make me and her father breakfast. When we got up, she had the whole table set. She had table mats. She had party favors. She toasted us toast, and she even made my lunch for work. And it was just so beautiful.

PAUL F: This is Paul in Brooklyn, N.Y., with my story of the best moment of the week. My daughter is away at school. And Thursday night, about 9 o'clock, she calls me and says a package was delivered for her, and I should go outside and bring it in. So I go to the front door, and there she is with a box of pizza. A friend of hers was driving down from school, and she just decided to take a ride and surprise me. And it was the greatest - the greatest - surprise.

PAUL C: Hi, it's Paul. We got the news that my daughter is engaged to the love of her life. I know that, you know, that you can't pin your happiness on other people's happiness. But when it's the person who has brought you so much joy for her entire life, you just can't help it. Cheers, Eric and Maddie (ph).

HU: Thanks to those listeners you heard there - Shantenelle, Paul F. and Paul C. Listeners, we want you to send in your best thing to us at any time during the week. Please just record yourself and send a voice memo to our new email address, ibam@npr.org. That's I-B-A-M@npr.org.

All right. That's it for us, folks. This week, IT'S BEEN A MINUTE was produced by Andrea Gutierrez, Liam McBain, Barton Girdwood, Chloee Weiner, Janet Woojeong Lee and Aja Drain. Our editor is Kitty Eisele. Our director of programming is Yolanda Sangweni. Our big boss, NPR's senior VP of programming is Anya Grundmann. I am Elise Hu. Take care of yourselves, and talk soon, y'all.

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