Danez Smith on hoochie daddy shorts for straight men, plus Alan Henry : It's Been a Minute They're short, sexy and on-trend: Hoochie daddy shorts are all the rage for cisgender straight men this summer. And this week, they are the center of a conversation between guest host Anna Sale and writer and poet Danez Smith about sex, gender and freedom. What do higher hemlines on men reveal about the gender anxiety rippling through America today?

Also, Anna speaks with Wired editor Alan Henry about his new book Seen, Heard, and Paid: The New Work Rules for the Marginalized. They discuss how employees of marginalized identities can navigate workplace dynamics, and focus on work that can advance their careers.

You can follow us on Twitter @NPRItsBeenAMin and email us at ibam@npr.org.

Hoochie daddy shorts give more than a lil leg; plus, let's get 'Seen, Heard and Paid'

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ELIZABETH SALE: Hi there. This is Elizabeth (ph) Sale, Anna's older sister. Hi, Anna. Today on the show, men's shorts are getting shorter and shorter, and the eye candy is just a bonus. Plus, how to get seen, heard and paid better at work. OK, here's the show.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

ANNA SALE, HOST:

Hey, y'all. You're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Anna Sale. You may know me as the host of the WNYC podcast "Death, Sex And Money," and I'll be your guest host for all of July. And maybe you're like me. It's summertime, and you're spending a lot of time outside. You're going to outdoor concerts and eating on restaurant patios and walking to your favorite bars. And maybe, like me, while you've been doing those things, you're noticing that cisgendered, straight men's shorts have gotten shorter this summer. Well, you're not alone in noticing this. It's a trend, and it has a name.

(SOUNDBITE OF MONTAGE)

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Hoochie daddy shorts.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: Hoochie daddy shorts.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #3: Hoochie daddy shorts.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #4: My mom doesn't like me wearing them. She calls them hoochie daddy shorts.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #5: I recommend hoochie daddy shorts for everybody. I think they're so comfortable, and I want, like, people to be able to see my legs. If I have a good leg day, I can't hide them. What am I going to wear pants for, you know?

SALE: Hoochie daddy shorts. My guest today, the poet Danez Smith, knows all about this summer's hottest trend. So, Danez, to start, I can see your top half as we're talking. What are you wearing on your bottom half?

DANEZ SMITH: I am wearing what I would call shorts. But I believe this season, they are called hoochie daddy shorts.

SALE: (Laughter).

SMITH: Maybe since I'm gender-neutral, they're more like hoochie parent shorts or something like that.

SALE: How would you describe hoochie daddy shorts?

SMITH: I would describe hoochie daddy shorts as straight men's current little revolution...

(LAUGHTER)

SMITH: ...Of having shorts above the knee, you know? Maybe a little form-fitting, right? Maybe they show a little secret or show a little rump in the back. And, you know, it's just the same shorts that, you know, what I think about when I think about the old NBA or when I think about that one picture of your dad that you didn't know existed until there were your father's thighs in the photo album.

(LAUGHTER)

SALE: I like that you acknowledge it's a revolution. It's a little revolution.

SMITH: It's a little revolution, right?

SALE: Danez writes about gender, sexuality and culture. And in our conversation, which I should warn you, gets a little sexually explicit at times, they told me that while this may seem like a funny trend, cisgender straight men falling in love with hoochie daddy shorts says a lot more about what's happening in our culture than you think, especially because short shorts are a thing women and queer men have been wearing for so long. What does it mean that cishet men are now ready to show off their upper thighs and borrow such an explicitly feminine style? I shared with Danez one viral moment from TikTok.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

AINSLEY LANDRY: OK, fellas, it's officially hot as the devil's cootie cat out here so...

SALE: (Laughter).

SMITH: Hot as the devil's cootie cat.

(LAUGHTER)

SMITH: She is a hoot (laughter).

SALE: If you haven't seen it, TikTok user @ladylbish is commenting on a photo of a super buff Black man wearing bright red shorts that I'd say are three or four inches above the knee, and his are also super tight.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

LANDRY: I'm personally living for this energy. I'm so ready to make somebody a single father. I'm just here to give y'all a few do's and don'ts. Obviously, this is a clear example of everything done right. This energy right here will get the back of your kneecaps licked, obviously. Look at that thigh meat. They're hoochie shorts. We want to see them thighs. He did not skip leg day.

SMITH: (Laughter).

SALE: He did not skip leg day. That's my favorite. Yes, well, OK. So do you agree with TikTok user @ladylbish?

SMITH: I mean, I agree. As a connoisseur - yeah, as a connoisseur of men - you know, a men sommelier, if you will - I appreciate a good hoochie daddy short. She's getting straight to the point. It's about sex. It's about being sexy. It's about advertising. It's about letting people see it - right? - letting people see that you've been in the gym on leg day or just letting people see that leg meat that they might like. And I think we, I don't know, as queer men and male-bodied folks, I think we're used to sort of being sexy for each other, right? And so you're damn right.

You know, I know that my boo looks at me a little different when I walk around the house in my short shorts. And, you know, maybe he does the dishes and does a little something extra for me that night. The straight men are finally giving my sisters a little bit of eye candy, you know? It's just something a little sexy to whet their appetite. Yeah.

SALE: So you are a poet, Danez. You are a student of words. Hoochie daddy shorts - what is all encompassed in that term?

SMITH: Right. So when we talk about hoochie daddy, we should go back to the original stereotype or the original phrase that is birthed out of, which is hoochie mama - a hoochie. She's sexually free - right? - in the most positive sense. But it is often used in a derogatory way. And women are used to getting catcalled in public because we say that - right? - that women can't wear certain things without, you know - you deserved - well, you knew you were going to get attention wearing that thing and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so we're putting this womanly view of men - right? - this idea that men are now advertising something onto these little hoochie daddy shorts. And you know what? Fine. I think we should be catcalling these men. It's just a little payback. I don't really think anybody should get catcalled if they don't want to. But damn it.

SALE: This is the energy that cishet men are after this summer.

SMITH: And so I think it's an inversion of how we usually see Black cishet men or cishet men in general as these sort of, you know, very hard images of masculinity. And the hoochie daddy is a little bit more flirty - right? - is a little bit more sexual, and it's revealing things that we assume are womanly, right? To have nice legs is a womanly thing, you know? To have a nice butt, we think about as a womanly thing. And so it is this little bit of gender play in there - right? - to finally say that, like, oh, men can be hoochies too. We want to see your thighs, right?

Think about everything - it's funny, but think about everything she was saying in that TikTok - that we want to make you single fathers, that we want to see all this meat, right? And so finally, with this playful thing of the hoochie daddy, it's a really great inversion of we want to see you as sexually vulnerable and scandalous as you both condemn and want from us, right? So now we're expecting a little bit of that from men.

SALE: We're objectifying you. We're calling you a hoochie. At the same time, we're calling you a daddy, so...

SMITH: Right.

SALE: You know (laughter), there's still that strength there. There's not a total subversion of the masculine ideal. You're a hoochie and a daddy all at once with these shorts.

SMITH: But then you have on the opposite side - I'm sorry, but then, like...

SALE: No, please.

SMITH: I'm thinking about this hoochie daddy, right? Like, she has a very fun TikTok, and I have seen some very - I mean, even though it's directed towards straight men - homophobic threads about how, like, how dare these men be out here wearing hoochie daddies. Where is the masculinity at? And it's this idea, I think that you see, that masculinity is often - and femininity, too, but gender, we see, is very policed.

SALE: So you're describing both this expanding freedom that you're seeing in fashion for straight men, and you're seeing this backlash. Can you tell me - say a little bit more about the ways you're seeing this homophobia play out online when talking about these shorts?

SMITH: Yeah, you know, I think in many corners of Black Twitter, there's this, like, faux conspiracy in the gay agenda that there is, like, an emasculation of Black men going on, right? I think what we actually see is a world - although increasingly antagonistic towards trans folks and folks who are expressing their gender differently, we also have a much more open world than we used to have. And I think any time you have more folks being free, you have an increased volume of folks who want to police that freedom, right? And I think there is maybe in the Black community itself this assumption that we need a rugged type of Black masculinity in order to fight back against white supremacy, in order to fight back against all the antagonisms that are looking to keep the Black community down.

But if we look at the forefront of all of our movements, it's queer Black people at the forefront. It's women at the forefront. You know, we think about who is truly radical in this nation. It's queer folks. It's trans folks. It's folks that have already had to fight for their liberation. And so I invite all of it, right? And I think it's part of an evolving conversation of folks also wanting to - I don't know, I don't want to keep on saying get free.

SALE: You can say get free.

SMITH: I can say get free.

SALE: That's an important concept (laughter).

SMITH: It is. It is a concept to get free, right? And I think what you see - when folks see themselves getting free or see other people getting free, they also realize their own limitations and their own borders, and they try to police other people back into those limitations, into those borders, into that little prison of identity or the real prisons of the world, because they themselves have not been liberated yet, right? I think, you know, so many conservative ideals are about policing others the same way you police yourself. I need you to have these same limitations because I have not yet figured out how to move beyond them.

SALE: Well, let's talk about the moment that hoochie daddy shorts arrived. This obviously originated in queer communities. What do you make of this being the summer of hoochie daddy shorts for cishet men at a time when, as you say, like, there's a lot of gender anxiety, including anti-trans proposals and policies animating our politics. Are they speaking to one another, hoochie daddy shorts and this moment of policing gender?

SMITH: I think so. I think - you know, I think there's - right, you already mentioned that America is going through a particular time of not only gender anxiety, but I would say trans antagonism, right? At the same time, we see ways, I think, in fashion over the last couple of years where even, you know, the average guy has a little bit more freedom. Now it's hoochie daddy shorts. I'm sure we've all seen in the last couple of years that a lot more straight men are painting their nails and maybe going towards hairstyles, right? Even something as simple as a whole bunch of flowered shirts being available at Target, I think says something about a little bit more freedom in men's fashion. I think they're speaking to each other. I think we - in that we see for most people - right? - we kind of want a little bit more freedom in our gender expression. We want to be able to dress our bodies in ways that make us feel lush and make us feel good and - damn right - make us feel sexy.

Also it's just hot (laughter). Also it's just hot - like, both in terms of, like, it looks hot to have on a pair of hoochie daddy shorts - I've never seen anybody who really looks bad in them - and also, global warming. It's fricking hot. Maybe hoochie daddy shorts are a little bit of relief from the rapidly increasing temperatures on this planet. And so I think all these moments are speaking to each other. What we do have now, I think, is something rather comical in hoochie daddy shorts. And I think it could be a call, right? If you feel like you should be free enough to have some hoochie daddy shorts, then maybe you could have a little bit more action and attention towards making other people who are just trying to live in their bodies and be free in their gender possible in America. And we see that in many states, trans people are in a literal state of danger. So put on your hoochie daddy shorts, and go march for trans rights.

SALE: And in some ways, you just mentioned queer panic. Short shorts are a return to a trend from 50 or so years ago, when straight men were wearing short shorts all the time. Do you think that a movement away from longer shorts for cis het straight guys - does that suggest to you that there's some kind of gender anxiety that's lifting for them?

SMITH: Maybe. I would hope so. But also, I think, you know, just, like, I'm cognizant that the summer of short shorts is also the summer that we lost Roe v. Wade. The summer of hoochie daddy shorts is also the summer of so many mass shootings, particularly at the hands of young white men. And so - right? So, like, if we're going to talk about hoochie daddy shorts being a type of lifting of a gender anxiety, then I think we also have to talk about the increasing gender and racial anxiety being experienced in another sector of men, right?

I hope, right? And I - you know, I can't avoid the racial coding of, like, hoochie daddy shorts. I hope that Black men are experiencing some type of gender revolution. And maybe that leads to a world where we are more positive influences in the lives of Black women and the lives of Black trans women and the lives of Black trans people and Black queer people and everybody, that we can have a more abundant and loving and - I think when I hear love, I also hear revolutionary Black community.

But also, we are experiencing a world where white men are so worried about their place in the world - right? - so worried that they go to grocery stores in Black neighborhoods and go on killing sprees, so worried that they are claiming the womb as state property in this anxiety that there's not enough white children in the world and that white people might become the minority.

And so, yeah, you know, gender is always in flux in our different communities. And I think this is a really intersectional moment where, like - if hoochie daddies are some type of freeing that's happening, what's going on with our young white men? You know, what is the particular gender anxiety that they're experiencing as well? And what does a lessening of that look like for all of us? - because it's a poison. And so how do we get to the root of what's happening in the white masculinity? Maybe they need a hoochie daddy moment, too.

SALE: To go back to fashion choices, what advice do you have for straight men who are a little worried to experiment with their fashion?

SMITH: (Laughter) Sometimes you got to look a mess on your way to looking great, right?

SALE: (Laughter).

SMITH: And sometimes you got to be a little scared the first time you wear something that looks really good on you out into the world. Get those hoochie daddy shorts. Paint your nails a little bit. But as you are doing that, as you're freeing yourself, as a straight man, you have the most privilege in this country. And so free your thighs, and go out and free somebody else, too. That's my advice.

SALE: For you and your fashion, is the summer of hoochie daddy shorts for straight cis het men - does that mean for you that short shorts are over?

SMITH: No. God, no. My legs are amazing. Thank you to my mother for these fabulous thighs of mine. I have been showing them for as long as possible. If anything, my short shorts just got shorter - might just be walking around in a thong by next summer. You never know what you might see.

(LAUGHTER)

SALE: Danez Smith, thank you so much for talking about fashion and talking about America and talking about gender with us. I think that there's a lot packed into those hoochie daddy shorts, and thank you for helping us unpack it.

SMITH: Well, thank you.

SALE: That was the poet Danez Smith. Their latest collection of poetry is called "Homie." We're going to take a quick break. And when we get back, one author has advice for you on getting seen, heard and paid at work. We'll be right back.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

SALE: You're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Anna Sale. And I know it's summer, but we're going to talk about work for a little bit. Specifically, the tricky questions that can arise when you're trying to move up at work, some of which are on the minds of interns here at NPR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MONTAGE)

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #6: How to gauge where you stand with your immediate supervisors or managers.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #7: How would you go about trying to get your foot in the door?

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #8: How do you advocate for yourself - crossing that line between being grateful that you're in the room but also advocating for yourself to have more and to exceed?

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #9: What would be the best way to get my work done and be seen by the people on my team?

SALE: Questions like these come up for most everyone filling out a timecard, but they take on added significance and stress for Black and brown workers, queer workers, disabled workers or anyone marginalized.

ALAN HENRY: So much of my career has been writing things where I solve a problem that I've had myself and then present that solution to other people so hopefully if they stumble into a similar situation, then they will be able to find their way out without having to go through what I went through.

SALE: That's Alan Henry. He identifies as Black and queer. He's an editor at Wired and the author of "Seen, Heard And Paid: The New Work Rules For The Marginalized."

So this book is a pep talk for people from marginalized backgrounds in the workplace...

HENRY: Yeah.

SALE: ...And I felt like the most provocative tip in it was, this isn't just about doing a good job at work. This is about prioritizing the work that's going to get you noticed...

HENRY: Absolutely.

SALE: ...Get you advanced, make sure you don't waste time doing the stuff that can be called office housekeeping.

HENRY: Yeah.

SALE: In other words, it's not about working for them - the company - it's about making work work for you. And what felt provocative to me about that is, you know, I came of age at a time where, you know, you show up, you pay your dues...

HENRY: Right.

SALE: ...And that's how you're going to rise. Why isn't that your advice?

HENRY: The concept of paying your dues has changed so much over the years, right? I mean, we don't have work environments where that social contract really holds anymore, where you come in and you do good work, and you were recognized for the work that you do. And also, to boot, I feel like - that marginalized workers specifically don't get the privilege of recognition from the people who lead them, ostensibly - mostly because the people who lead them are usually privileged people. They're usually white, cis, heterosexual men who reward some things more than others. And they don't acknowledge the social baggage that the people that they lead bring to the workplace with them.

SALE: Or their own social baggage.

HENRY: Or their own social baggage for that matter, yeah. So it's so challenging because, to me, I've seen so many people - and this is unique to the book because I thought it was just me at first. But then as I was writing it, I uncovered this world of research that points out that women, specifically - but also explicitly women of color - tend to get the office housework - right? - the stuff that is necessary for a team to thrive but it's not the stuff that is, oh, yeah, you put it on your resume because that's a real big win that I got. And that means that they tend to stay in those roles where they're doing office housework all the time, and somebody else gets the glory work. They get the work that puts their name on the front of a trade publication, or they get to go to a conference and do a presentation.

SALE: You know, I thought about that. I'm a white woman. I'm a woman in journalism, and I have long been wary of becoming the go-to notetaker. Like, I know how that can happen for women in the workplace. So if we're following your advice from the book about being reluctant to take on that busy work that's not going to serve us individually, professionally...

HENRY: Yeah.

SALE: ...What do you say back to the boss when they give you that assignment?

HENRY: I mean, this is my easy way out - sure, I'll take notes this time. But next time, can somebody else do it? Or maybe - let's start a round robin. I'll take notes this time, and then Jim will take notes next time, and then Bill will take notes after that. You know, so you come kind of armed with a solution that your manager or your boss and other people in the room can't really dispute. It's kind of like outplaying them.

SALE: It's coming with a solution and also saying, I'm noticing what you did there.

(LAUGHTER)

SALE: You - and you write, you can't look around at examples of what's working for all of your colleagues in a workplace. The sentence you have is, just because it worked for your white colleagues, don't assume it will work for your BIPOC self.

HENRY: That's right.

SALE: You have to figure out - it worked for them, is that going to work for me in my body?

HENRY: That lesson was tough because the very specific lesson was - at Lifehacker, I used to write about timeboxing - right? - this concept of blocking off parts of your calendar for deep work. So between 8 and 11, blocked off my calendar, no one book me for a meeting because that's when I'm responding to emails. And one of my peers had a no-meeting Tuesdays. He blocked his whole Tuesday off to focus on the work that he needed to do. Everybody respected that. Everybody understood that was fine. I tried that. I blocked off a no-meeting Thursdays. People just booked over me. And then I found myself in the position of having to explain why I had control over my own schedule.

For me, I have to worry about people thinking I'm lazy. I have to worry about people thinking I'm not fun to work with or I'm not good to work with, or I don't - I'm difficult. It's just - it's a complete different dichotomy for, like, a white coworker versus a BIPOC person versus a disabled person versus an LGBTQ person in the workplace. They all - all of us have this baggage that we carry with us that we have to address when we try to do our jobs. And that's an extra job on top of the work we do.

SALE: And when you become sort of aligned with your boss, you write, that means your boss is looking for opportunities for you. If your priorities are aligned with your boss's priorities, you're more likely to rise in the workplace.

HENRY: Absolutely.

SALE: But I want to ask you about when you take the opposite approach, which is looking around at the people at your level and saying we ought to organize in opposition with management, whether that's being adversarial in a way, like going on social media and talking about what's wrong with your company or management at your company, or organizing an open letter or even starting a union-organizing campaign. It's a very different approach.

HENRY: For sure.

SALE: How do you advise people to make that calculation? When do you stand up and sort of gird yourself for the potential fallout?

HENRY: Yeah, that's a great question, because it speaks to something that's really important to me in workplaces, and advice I give managers, even, is to look out for what level of psychological safety do you have in your workplace? Psychological safety is the work, right? If you feel empowered already to sit down with your manager and say, I have these grievances, I have these concerns and I trust you to work with me to address them, then you have a great relationship. But at the same time, if you do not have that psychological safety at all, that's when it becomes time to rally the troops - right? - to get other people with whom you share concerns to get together and come to the table with management or in opposition to management and say, these are our concerns and we really want you to address them.

And a lot of it has to do, in the individual level, on how much energy do you want to give this workplace, right? If you don't believe that this workplace can change or can change in a timetable that matters to you, then get out. Just leave. Go somewhere else, which is an easy thing for me to say. But, like, for me at The New York Times, that place wouldn't have changed on a timetable that I was comfortable with. So when an opportunity came to me to leave and do something different, I took it, right? But I agonized over that for many years, like, whether or not I should stay or I should go. I mean, I'm a journalist and I was working at The Times in a role that was created for me. I should be at the peak of my career, right? I should be happy. And if I couldn't make this work, what does that say about me? And ultimately, it took connecting with other people who reminded me that, no, this is systemic; no, it's not just you; and no, this happens in lots of places, for me to say no, OK, maybe it's not just me. Maybe it's the environment.

SALE: Those relationships are - helped you see it wasn't you.

HENRY: Exactly.

(SOUNDBITE OF FLEVANS' "FLICKER")

SALE: All right. We're going to take a quick break. And when we get back, Alan Henry has some advice for saying no to your boss. Stick with us.

(SOUNDBITE OF FLEVANS' "FLICKER")

SALE: I want to ask you about a few scripts that you recommend. One is when a boss comes to you with something that you don't want to do, but you want to make sure they come to you again with other opportunities. What do you say?

HENRY: No and or no but.

(LAUGHTER)

HENRY: I can't take total credit for that. That's my old friend, Gina Trapani, Lifehacker's founding editor. She wrote a great article way, way, way long ago about saying no and the importance of saying no. And then I piggybacked on that with an article on how to say no without ruining your career.

SALE: (Laughter).

HENRY: The key there (laughter) - because it's so easy. It's so easy to say no and ruin your career. But it's key to be able to tell your manager that, no, I don't necessarily have time for this right now, because I'm working on all these other things that you may or may not be aware of. And we've all had managers in the past who know that we're doing work, but they don't know what we do (laughter).

SALE: Particularly with remote work.

HENRY: Yeah, absolutely. And they may know you're online in Slack, but they don't know what you're doing, you know? So, like, I find it very important to be able to tell a manager, in as many different ways as possible, here's what's on my plate right now. In order for me to do that thing that you want me to do, I need to be able to backburner something else or take something off my plate and give it to someone else. And that's that kind of solutions-forward amenability that you can bring to a manager and say, I'm not really saying no (laughter). But what I am saying is I'm overworked, and I would really love it if you would help me prioritize my work, which also, by the way, is your job as my manager.

SALE: I want to ask you about getting paid, Alan.

HENRY: Yeah.

SALE: You give the guidance that you're not going to get paid, you might not get paid what you're worth, unless you know what other people are getting paid.

HENRY: For sure.

SALE: How do you start that conversation? What is that first line in the email or the first sentence you say on a phone call? How do you ask people how much money they're making?

HENRY: I feel like the conversation to this has shifted a bit away from how awkward it would be to be like, how much do you make in this role? I think a lot of discovery still happens in those informal networks, right?

SALE: Over drinks? Yes.

HENRY: Over drinks, over ice cream or something like that, you know? But I do think that we're in a place now where more people are talking about what a role is worth. And instead of asking a person how much do you make, I find that it's really important to say, how much does this role make? And then asking other people, how much do you make in a similar role, right? Because then what you do is you get a kind of range that you then can aim for the top of and then, if you have to negotiate, work your way down. But unfortunately, as much as everybody's talking about salary transparency right now, I think that until it's not marginalized folks who have to lead that conversation, we're still going to be in a position where it's just uncomfortable to ask. So, yeah, you definitely have to make room and make friends to make room for drinks to ask them, honestly, how much is this job?

SALE: Not just uncomfortable - risky.

HENRY: Risky - extremely risky, yeah.

SALE: What would be the advice that you give white people in a workplace around salary transparency?

HENRY: Tell people what you make, and I mean informally, right? And also kind of, you know, when you leave a job - I find a lot of people have been doing this on Twitter, which I love - hey, today is my last day at X Institution. They're probably going to hire for my role. This is what I made based on the experience I have. And then another reader can say, well, OK, this person had 10 years' experience. I have seven years' experience, so I probably can't make as much as they did, but maybe I can ask for it and see what they're offering me. Just those kinds of things are really helpful.

SALE: Taking on the onus of creating the psychological safety if you are a person not from a marginalized...

HENRY: Absolutely.

SALE: ...Identity in the workplace. Alan, thank you so much for this book. Reading it, I thought...

HENRY: Yeah.

SALE: ...I want to hand this to every person I work with (laughter).

HENRY: Please do. I hope you do. I hope everybody else does (laughter).

SALE: Thanks again to Alan Henry. His new book is called "Seen, Heard And Paid: The New Work Rules For The Marginalized." It's out now. Special thanks to NPR's summer interns Guillermo (ph), Sierra (ph), Jorgelina (ph), and Joby (ph). Good luck out there getting seen, heard and paid yourselves.

All right, this episode was produced by Barton Girdwood, Andrea Gutierrez, Leah McBain, Chloee Weiner and Janet Woojeong Lee, with help from Ehianeta Arheghan. Our editors are Jessica Mendoza and Quinn O'Toole. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sangweni and our big boss is NPR senior VP of programming, Anya Grundmann. Until next time, thank you for listening. I'm Anna Sale. You can find my regular podcast, "Death, Sex And Money," wherever you listen. And you're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR.

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