Will King Charles III be the end of the monarchy? Plus, HGTV renovations : It's Been a Minute King Charles III doesn't enjoy the same popularity as his mother. In the face of mixed feelings towards the new king, some are asking: Is this the beginning of the end of the British monarchy? Guest host Elise Hu talks to Dr. Shola Mos-Shogbamimu, lawyer, activist and author of This Is Why I Resist about this new era for the British royals, the power they hold and the potential opportunities for the new monarch.

Then, Elise chats with Atlantic writer Amanda Mull about the HGTV-ification of interior design and what the trend says about the housing market.

Lastly, Elise plays a fast-food-themed version of Who Said That with Sarah and Kaitlin Leung, sisters and co-authors of the upcoming cookbook, The Woks of Life: Recipes to Know and Love from a Chinese American Family: A Cookbook.

You can follow us on Twitter @NPRItsBeenAMin and email us at ibam@npr.org.

Who needs the monarchy? Plus, why gray floors and barn doors are everywhere

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SHOLA MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: I'm Dr. Shola Mos-Shogbamimu. I'm a lawyer, political women's rights activist and the author of "This Is Why I Resist."


UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The BBC is interrupting its normal programs to bring you an important announcement.

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: I was about to go into a TV interview.


UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The queen died peacefully at Balmoral this afternoon.

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: And I realized I had a strange feeling, but I did not understand what that strange feeling was. So all I could tweet was, the queen has died - I think something to that effect. And I said to myself, it's OK not to say anything else. Once I process what I'm feeling, I'll come back. And I then remember saying to my husband, I don't understand what I'm feeling, right? Let's just say that I have very strong opinions when it comes to the monarchy.


You're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Elise Hu. Today, we head across the pond to the U.K. where long-time monarch Queen Elizabeth II is lying in state. She died last week at age 96, capping off 70 years on the throne. That's the longest of any British monarch. And those strange feelings that Shola had, she's not alone in having them. We heard from listeners across a whole spectrum. Some of you had fond memories of the queen.

PEGGY: A while ago, I decided to become an American citizen. And I couldn't possibly give up my loyalty to the Queen. So the day before I was going to be sworn in, I wrote her a letter saying what I was going to do and that I would cross my fingers and say, rhubarb, rhubarb, so that I would stay loyal to her.

HU: Other listeners who called in had more complicated feelings.

PRANAV: Here are thoughts on the passing of the queen from a queen, a Black queen. Quite frankly, someone who's draped in blood diamonds and literally sitting on the seat of a throne built by colonization and profit from the transatlantic slave trade - how can I do anything but sigh?

BILLY: At this moment, those of us who recognize the brutality and the exploitation of centuries of colonialism and slavery have been speaking up about the horrors the British monarchy and state represent for millions of Asians, Africans, Irish and others.

SUSANNA: Think about the centuries of British Empire and all the harm that's been done all over the world, that some of the harm that she could have repaired, that she could have apologized for, the treasures that she could have returned and that King Charles now has a chance to.

HU: Thank you to listeners Peggy (ph), Pranav (ph), Billy (ph) and Susanna (ph) for sharing your thoughts. And Shola, who is based in London - she had similar feelings about the media coverage of the queen's death.

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: They just had to come out with the exaggerated epitaphs and the whitewashing of her legacy. And I'm - I recognize that at this time, we have a nation that is mourning and a family that is mourning their loss. But what I cannot do at this time is look at the legacy of Queen Elizabeth II through rose-tinted glasses. It's not possible.

HU: When you say you heard these exaggerated, whitewashed...


HU: ...Obits kind of right away, what do you feel was whitewashed and deserved a more nuanced treatment?

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: Oh, that's such an excellent question. And that's the question every single media outlet should be asking. People could not handle the fact that their idea of respectability could not be upheld by people who felt that they'd been oppressed by the British Empire, British government, both of which she headed. And you heard the new prime minister of Britain, Liz Truss...

HU: Liz Truss.

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: ...In a speech. She said the queen is the reason Britain is great today. So I'm like, wait, hold on. How can she be powerful and be the reason for your greatness, but be powerless and not be the reason for the atrocities committed in the name of queen and country?

HU: Right. So that brings us to this transition, this moment that we're in now and King Charles III. How do those words sound to you? How does that title and the reality that Charles is now king - how does that land with you?

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: I think on one part, I think, well, it's the natural succession. He's meant to be the heir apparent. But on the other hand, I'm thinking, this is 2022. What are we doing submitting ourselves to an institution of monarchy where we are meant to be servants, you know, work in servitude, be bowing our heads. I'm like, what the hell? What's going on here?

HU: It sounds so outdated. Yes, it sounds antiquated.

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: Totally outdated. I think people wake the heck up. What is going on here? That's my reaction, I would say, to King Charles III. I recognize, you know, he is the successor. In our national anthem, we have "God Save The Queen." Now people are singing "God Save The King." I'm like, hold up, people. Hold up. What about us? How about God save us, too?

HU: You are over there in London. So I just want to get a sense. How is the British public reacting to Charles now taking the throne?

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: We have definitely had protesters who are making it clear you can't just automatically ascend to the throne. Where's the consent? We get that your mother has been on the throne for 70 years. How is there no conversation around, OK, public consent, what's the purpose of the monarchy today? And he automatically becomes king and takes on all of this economic and political power that has been amassed for centuries. But...

HU: Yeah.

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: ...You will find members of the British public who are in mourning because for a lot of people, she is that grandmother, that great grandmother. You look at her, and people separate her from the institution that she represents when she's - quite frankly, she's one and the same, right? And she was very clear that her life of service was through the institution and the institution.

HU: Sure.

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: She's going to be buried on the 19 of September. And there's been wall-to-wall coverage. The people are getting tired of that because, like, look, we're in the rising cost of living crisis. There's a real...

HU: Oh, yes. The British economy is in shambles.

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: Thank you. Look, we just got a new government. Somebody needs to be scrutinizing the hell out of them. So what is going on?

HU: Let's take a minute to talk a little bit about Charles because he is the new king. And when you think back, can you talk us through some moments that sort of are illustrative or really define who he is?

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: I think the first thing people will think is, yeah, he's the son of the queen. And the next thing is, yeah, he's the man who didn't have the [expletive] to stand up to his parents and marry the woman he loves. So he punished the woman he married and made her life miserable. I mean, really, that's - that kind of sums up what people know about him. What people don't know as much about him is...

HU: Yeah.

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: ...Interest in architecture or the fact that he's been speaking out about the climate crisis and issues for a long time.

HU: Well, given this public ambivalence about Charles, will he find public support?

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: Elise, there are two things here. I think that the monarchy has no choice but to stand with King Charles III because...


MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: ...Right now he's this tool of survival - right now. And on the other hand, with the public, time will tell. The monarchy has always and still does represent entrenched inequalities in the United Kingdom, and people are going to get tired of that.

HU: So given the way you feel and the fact that you're not alone in feeling this way about the monarchy and just aristocracy in general, could this moment be the beginning of the end for the monarchy?

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: Again, time will tell. I think this moment will definitely be the beginning of more public, outspoken, you know, discussions. And people - depending on the government that comes into power, removing the monarchy will be a hot, divisive topic. And for those who want to get into power, they're going to...

HU: Right.

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: ...Play both ways. They're going to go, what side will get me into No. 10? And they will make it divisive. But I think the reality for a lot of people is - enough already with the entrenched inequalities - because, again, when it comes to the British monarchy, you are looking at a class divide, a race divide, a privilege divide, a wealth divide. And if all they're going to do is more of the same of what Queen Elizabeth II did, people are going to go, wow, that's a good job. I don't mind becoming king. Pay me so I can go to events, cut ribbons, shake hands, be driven in the nice limo, you know, all of that.

HU: Yeah. Isn't it just largely ceremonial now, anyway?

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: No, it's not. Ooo (ph), absolutely...

HU: See...


HU: I'm so American - right? - because we - I feel like we watch the royals over there with a lot of fascination, but we kind of follow their lives like they're the Real Housewives or something. It's not real, you know?

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: I feel you. No, it is very real. And the royal family have real political and economic power. There's just no doubt about it. I mean, people raise the point that the queen was able to secure for herself and her family exemption from sex discrimination laws, race discrimination laws. She was able to secure for herself that her private wealth would be hidden from public view. These are people with power. This is an institution with power. When the British government at the time wanted to woo your then-President Trump, what did they do? They rolled out the queen as their charm offensive...

HU: Yeah, yeah.

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: ...To play the diplomatic role. She is a political head of state. There is nothing ceremonial. They use words like ceremonial and powerless when it's time to hold them to account. But when it comes to benefitting, all have said, oh, how powerful. Oh, she's...

HU: It's funny how that works, right?

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: I know. And you know what? What I find ingenious in the whole thing, you know, right, is how they have sold this narrative to the British public that all of this is in their best interest. I'm like, how is this in anybody's best interest but those in power, those at the top tier, you know, of the elite class? I don't get it.

HU: Obviously, it would be very divisive, but what would it take to do away with at least some of the power if not the monarchy entirely?

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: I think that what needs to happen would be pretty radical. And when I say radical, it is either the monarchy plays a pivotal role where it represents the many and not the few, and that means leading on real issues - like reparation, justice, reconciliation, standing in that gap when it comes to race inequality in the gap, gender inequality, things like that - so that people understand that these are humanitarian issues. They're not political because when the queen's household was seeking and lobbying for all those exemptions - oh, that was not political. But the moment it comes to the rest of us - oh, that's political, and the family can't talk about it. That's total BS - you and I know that, right? So it's the gaslighting.

And the problem here, as well, is especially when you look at how former colonies have responded. In the last few months, a few of them removed the queen as the head of state, but then when we explain to people - when I explain to people that the Commonwealth, which they like to tout a lot about - how wonderful. The queen is such a wonderful thing. You know, she presided over the Commonwealth, a family of nations.

I'm like, are you kidding me? The Commonwealth is British Empire renamed. That's what it is, basically. There is nothing common about the wealth of the Commonwealth. You can't claim you are ceremonial without political power, when we see that you are nonceremonial - you do have political power, but you use it for yourself. That's the problem.

HU: A real opportunity for leadership, though, if they did want to take a more radical approach. There is...

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: Oh my goodness, a real opportunity. It would be fantastic. So, for instance, for a lot of Black communities - right? - and, you know, Afro Caribbean nations and African nations that are former colonies - hear the words, I am sorry. I am sorry for the atrocities, the genocide, the pillage, the rape, the violence wrought upon your people and your nations in the name of the royal family and the country. I am sorry. The hardest word to say in the English language. They don't want to do that because they know. They say that - it would be time to pay up because reparations - now is the time for it.

HU: Shola, thank you for not holding back.

MOS-SHOGBAMIMU: (Laughter) Thank you for having me.

HU: Thanks again to Dr. Shola Mos-Shogbamimu. She's a lawyer, activist and author of the book "This Is Why I Resist." Coming up, if you've seen a newly renovated home recently, chances are it had gray floors, and there's a reason for that. I talk to a writer about what those floors tell us about housing in America today.

If you've recently been house or apartment hunting or stayed in an Airbnb or even just watched a home remodel show, you might have noticed something really similar about them.

AMANDA MULL: You know a flip when you see it. It's going to probably have cool-toned, gray floors, first and foremost. And those are not real wood. They are laminate.

HU: That's Amanda Mull. She's a staff writer for The Atlantic covering consumer life and health. And she has a whole theory about the aesthetic of all these gray floors. And to be clear, this look is more than just floors.

MULL: You are going to have, probably, subway tiles in the kitchen. You might see a barn door where a normal door on hinges might have previously lived.

HU: Amanda interprets what this look is all about in her piece for The Atlantic called "The HGTV-ification Of America." She links these all-too-familiar design choices to a noticeable shift in America's housing market. Investors and landlords are buying up a sizable chunk of available homes and flipping them.

MULL: Everything will feel like it was just installed, and it probably was.

HU: I talk with Amanda about the purpose of all those gray floors, the bad logic behind the sliding barn door and how a healthier housing economy could mean more interesting aesthetics.

When did you first start noticing all the gray floors?

MULL: Well, I first started really noticing them in real estate listings probably five years ago - that was the last time I was apartment hunting for myself.

HU: Yeah.

MULL: And in - I live in Brooklyn - and you started to see this sort of, like - these sort of commonalities across listings, across management companies where a lot of these were in buildings that were older. But like, as people moved out of older units, they had flipped them to become sort of, quote, unquote, "luxury." And I love to watch HGTV. I love to look at real estate listings in places that, like, I have no intention to move, so this is not just, like, a coastal city thing.

HU: Right.

MULL: I am from the South, originally, and it has become very popular in the South over that period of time. You get, like, sort of an acceleration, I think, in the past two years as the number of homes being flipped has - or acquired by investors for rental purposes has sort of increased...

HU: Yeah.

MULL: ...With home values across the country. And now it is - it can be really hard to find a home to buy or an apartment to move into if you do not want these fixtures and these details, if you want something that feels a little bit cozier.

HU: And you cover consumerism, so is it just our tendency to kind of have a trend mentality where we are sheeple and follow whatever is the latest trend? What drives the gray floors and the subway tile look?

MULL: Well, I think that there is certainly some aspect of, you know, every era needs sort of its commonalities in design. But I think that the bigger thing going on here is that so many homes in America are not bought and remodeled by the people who intend to live in them at this point. In the first quarter of 2022, for example, you saw about a third of all home sales in the United States were either flips, which means that an investor bought them and then resold them within 12 months...

HU: Yeah.

MULL: ...Or properties purchased by investors, which is essentially landlords. So you get a lot of - like, the housing stock movement in the United States goes through the hands of people with no intention of actually living with those aesthetic decisions that they make. You become beholden to what is inexpensive and will reap max rewards on the market when it's rented or resold. So you start looking for stuff that is cheap. Like, laminate flooring is very cheap compared to real wood.

HU: Yeah.

MULL: And you start looking for stuff that indicates newness that was not in homes 10 years ago because what buyers are looking for as American housing stock ages...

HU: Yeah.

MULL: ...Is, you know, a guarantee that somebody has addressed some problems, that they don't need to go down to the studs to find out, like, what's really going on with the home. So you get these sort of cheap signifiers of newness that people sort of plug and play into these - into an enormous portion of the homes in America.

HU: Yeah, you mentioned they are signifiers of newness, but they're not necessarily functional. And because they're cheap, they might not work for us if we were to live there for a long period of time, right? Like, barn doors are quite problematic for soundproofing, for example.

MULL: Right, right. Whenever I look at a real estate listing and see that, like, the master bedroom has a barn door, I'm like, I don't - or like a bathroom has a barn...

HU: Right, right (laughter).

MULL: ...Door, it's very - like, spaces within your home that are designed to be private for, like, good reason - having a barn door, it just defeats the purpose because you basically have a curtain up to protect you from whatever is on the other side. And for a lot of people, that's going to be kids. That's going to be, you know, spouses that you probably want some time in the bathroom away from. You want to conduct your romantic lives and your bodily functions away from the other members of your household usually.

HU: I didn't think this interview was going to go there but sure, yeah.

MULL: Yeah. You get sort of, like, down to the nitty-gritty of what it means to actually live in a home. But if you're a landlord or a house-flipper just looking to indicate to somebody that, you know, the house is updated, then maybe you don't care where the doors are.

HU: That makes sense.

MULL: And then you get the same situation in bathrooms. There was a real trend toward taking out bathtubs and putting in shower stalls because that looks new. That looks updated. Well, if you have a kid, you might want a bathtub in your home. If you have a kid and a dog, you might want two.

HU: Yeah.

MULL: You know, you're the one who has to live with the decision of somebody who never lived in the house.

HU: Totally. Since we were on barn doors, I want to talk about the HGTV "Fixer Upper" of everything because it seems like subway tiling, sliding barn doors, they are born out of the Chip and Joanna Gaines impact. So how much do you attribute - obviously, there are housing market forces at play which are probably dominant. But how much would you attribute the sameness of this Airbnb aesthetic to HGTV?

MULL: I think that a lot of credit and/or blame for these phenomena goes to HGTV. Not all of it goes to Chip and Joanna, although I think we can pin the barn doors on them pretty easily.

HU: (Laughter).


JOANNA GAINES: We've got two of these doors that lead into the walk-in closet and the master bathroom. You know, I just really love the texture and the blend that this brings the rest of this room.

MULL: What HGTV does is offer sort of a suite of programming that is about house flipping or investment properties or how to wring the...

HU: Totally.

MULL: ...Most dollars out of an asset. So you get a lot of shows that are sort of, like, didactic about how, like, OK, if you want to flip houses, here's the principles that you're acting on. Here are the things that make a house look, quote-unquote, "new" or "expensive" that are actually very cheap. Here's what you want to get rid of. Here's the cheapest way to replace it. And then at the end, you get the sort of, like, mathematic breakdown of - this is how much we bought the house for; this is how much we put into it; this is how much we resold it for or that...

HU: Yeah.

MULL: ...We think it's worth now.

HU: Yeah.

MULL: Over the past 10 years, that has encouraged a lot of people into this way of interacting with the real estate market. American wages don't move a whole lot. We're in a country where our wage labor is sort of stagnant by and large. But assets appreciate. Assets appreciate well in real estate especially. Residential real estate has appreciated a lot in the last 10 years. So it's tempting, I think, for a lot of people with a good credit score and, like, a basic belief in their own ability to, like, do some household repairs...

HU: Yeah (laughter).

MULL: ...And like, you know. And you see this sort of idealized version of, like, you know, be your own boss, you know, work with your hands, get out of the office...

HU: Right.

MULL: ...Make a lot of money sort of idea.

HU: So outside of our homes, though, even in offices or shops, I've noticed it does feel like there is this culture of sameness with reclaimed wood or Edison bulbs - the fast, casual restaurants with the neon signs that look like the WeWork - early WeWork spaces. So when you talk about this instruction manual that we are fed, in terms of how to look or how things should look - how our spaces should look, what's the internet's role in this since trend cycles can now happen at such speed, and we're constantly barraged with images of aspirational spaces?

MULL: I think that the internet definitely does play a real role in this, first, because of its capacity for sort of, like, image...

HU: Yes.

MULL: ...Distribution and idea distribution. And you see a lot of blogs and websites and Instagram accounts and Pinterests that are sort of recommending these aesthetic flourishes that idealize them. And then also, on the other side of it, the internet has sort of homogenized shopping. We all have access to the same, you know, sort of, relatively small suite of websites that we could potentially be buying the supplies from.

HU: Exactly.

MULL: They're designed to funnel us toward things that are already popular or things that are paying for placement with Google. So it can be really difficult to, like, extricate yourself from this suite of, like, aesthetic signifiers unless you have, like, really just a ton of money. If you're a normal person with a normal salary and trying to make some updates to your home, you know...

HU: Then you've got a lot of gray. Your options are a lot of gray.

MULL: Yeah.

HU: What would you want to see instead? What's a more affirmative vision for this?

MULL: I think that a more interesting future lies in people having more control over the housing that they live in. And I think that that means that people get to buy houses that weren't already flipped - that weren't already - got renovated, that didn't have all of the detail taken out of them, all of the original character - so that people who are going to live in a home get a chance to make the home that they want without the sort of middleman that they didn't choose.

HU: Does the cooling housing market, at least in some markets, point away toward more differentiation?

MULL: Maybe. My sense is that institutional investors and buyers are always going to have a leg up. They can buy with cash. They have no contingencies. They'll take the house as is. They don't want an inspection. Like, even if the housing market cools, you're asking individual buyers to go up against a machine that they cannot outgun, in a lot of ways. Probably, the answer to this is regulatory. I don't think that there's a whole ton that, like, individual people can do to mitigate this, but, like, if you're selling a house out there, try to sell it to the people who want to live in it. If you can afford to take a slightly lower price to avoid giving it to an investor, I think that you'd be doing a world of good, even if just for that buyer.

HU: That's Amanda Mull. She covers consumer life and health for The Atlantic. Amanda, thank you so much.

MULL: Thank you so much for having me.

HU: Thanks again to Amanda Mull. You can find her writing at The Atlantic. Coming up, we'll play Who Said That. Stay with us.

You're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Elise Hu. And we are back for a game called Who Said That. And today, if y'all don't mind indulging me, we have a special edition of Who Said That because my favorite fast-food menu item, and maybe yours, is back. It's the Mexican Pizza from Taco Bell.


DOJA CAT: (Rapping) Mexican Pizza is the pizza for you and me. Mexican Pizza is the pizza...

HU: That is Doja Cat rapping about her love for the Mexican Pizza because she, like me, has great taste. Taco Bell scrapped this menu item at the beginning of the pandemic, but it was so missed that the company brought back the Mexican Pizza this spring, only to quickly sell out of its component parts. They took months to fix the supply chain issues, but this week, the Mexican Pizza has come back to us for good. And no, we are not sponsored by Taco Bell. I am not sponsored by Taco Bell. I just legit love this menu item.

So in honor of this event, we brought on two foodies to help play a fast-food edition of Who Said That. They are sisters and co-authors of the upcoming cookbook "The Woks Of Life: Recipes To Know And Love From A Chinese American Family: A Cookbook." Sarah and Kaitlin Leung, thanks for joining us.

SARAH LEUNG: Thank you so much for having us.

KAITLIN LEUNG: Yeah, thank you. We're happy to be on.

HU: What we're doing today is we're going to play a jingle or a part of an advertisement from a fast-food company or a restaurant. And you name what the jingles about or the restaurant that's advertising it. And just a note - we're not being paid by or sponsored by any of these brands, I just love all things fast-food, especially the jingles. OK. And then there are no buzzers. You just yell out the answer. And in keeping with IBAM tradition, you'll win nothing, just pride.

S LEUNG: Got it.

HU: Perfect. OK. Here we go. First jingle.


UNIDENTIFIED SINGER #1: (Singing) Five. Five dollar. Five dollar [bleeped].

K LEUNG: Oh, this is easy.

S LEUNG: Oh, that's the $5 footlong. That's Subway.

K LEUNG: The $5 footlong from Subway.


K LEUNG: It's a bop. I forgot.


K LEUNG: I was, like, jamming a little bit.

HU: Wait. Who said it first? I feel like y'all kind of came in at the same time. You were very sisterly where - one of you said, this is $5 footlong, and the other one said something.

S LEUNG: I think that was me. I think it's me, Sarah.

K LEUNG: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Are we competing against each other?

S LEUNG: Yeah, is this a competition? Because...

K LEUNG: Because that changes the entire landscape of this whole thing, and I will turn into a competitive animal.

HU: Oh, I clearly didn't set this up properly. Yes, you are competing against each other.

K LEUNG: Oh, my God. OK, wait.

S LEUNG: OK, OK. Got it.

HU: You may be sisters, but this is a competition.


HU: Five-dollar footlong goes to Sarah. All right, here's the next one. It's a throwback.


MILDRED LANE: (As Old lady) It's a very big, fluffy bun.

CLARA PELLER: (As Old lady) Where's the beef?

K LEUNG: Wendy's.


HU: There we go. That was Kaitlin.


HU: Kaitlin, give us some context of that.

K LEUNG: Well, I can thank my dad for this one because he always makes a joke about how that used to be their old slogan, where it was like, oh, where's the beef? And they would make fun of, like, other competitor burgers for being small and puny, and the Wendy's burger was large.

HU: Right, exactly.

S LEUNG: Yeah. Our dad was also a former employee of Burger King, so I feel like he felt that slogan. Like...

HU: (Laughter). I had no idea. You have a real fast-food lineage in your family. That is wonderful.

S LEUNG: Yes. Our aunt also worked for Burger King. I don't know why it was - Burger King was our family's, like, employer, but that was the thing in college.

HU: Fun fact - my brother worked for Taco Bell, so yeah, we all have a little fast-food relations. All right, Wendy's is the answer. That went to Kaitlin. That was from the iconic 1984 ad campaign. Y'all weren't alive for it, but it became a real catchphrase. It then inspired a presidential candidate in the 1984 presidential race, Democrat Walter Mondale, to quote it, when questioning whether his opponent was insubstantial. So very good. We are tied, 1 to 1. All right. Here is the third clue.


IVANA TRUMP: Donald...


It's wrong, isn't it?

I TRUMP: But it feels so right.

D TRUMP: And it's a deal?

I TRUMP: Yes, we eat our pizza the wrong way.

D TRUMP: Crust first.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Introducing stuffed crust pizza from [bleeped].

K LEUNG: I feel like I was totally distracted by the Ivana Donald of it all.

S LEUNG: Yeah, I was just like, what?


K LEUNG: There's, like, one pizza chain that really goes whole-hog on, like, talking crust.

S LEUNG: It has to have been Pizza Hut, I feel.


S LEUNG: Right. I felt like that had, like, a deeply, like, '80s, early '90s vibe, and I feel like Pizza Hut was the pizza chain that was advertising at that time.

HU: Sarah, you got that, so you are up 2 to 1 over your sister.

S LEUNG: Nice.

K LEUNG: It's not over until it's over yet, so relax, Sarah.

HU: I love how competitive this became. OK, next, it's going to be part of an advertisement and not a jingle.


UNIDENTIFIED SINGER #2: (Singing) Love that chicken.

UNIDENTIFIED SINGER #3: (Singing) Love that chicken.

UNIDENTIFIED SINGER #4: (Singing) Love that chicken.

K LEUNG: There's only so many chickens. It's either KFC...


K LEUNG: ...Popeyes...


K LEUNG: ...Or Boston Market. OK, there you go.

HU: That was Popeyes.

K LEUNG: Well, I said Popeyes.

HU: I'm giving it to you because in your list of chicken places, you did name Popeyes, Kaitlin. So point to Kaitlin. Kaitlin ties it up. That was from a Popeye's commercial from the year 2000. OK, we have one final clue. And because you two are tied, Kaitlin 2, Sarah 2, this is a lot more competitive than I thought it would be. And this final clue should be pretty easy.


UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: I was just going to the Colonel's because no one else makes chicken with that special blend of 11 herbs and spices.



HU: That was a KFC commercial from the 1980s. And back then it was known as Kentucky Fried Chicken because people weren't so turned off by fried things or fried in the name of restaurants. They had to change it to KFC in 1991. Kaitlin Leung, you have beaten your sister in this special game of Who Said That, fast-food edition.

K LEUNG: I'm honored. And yes, I am filled with pride. It's enough - for the little sisters everywhere.

HU: That was for the little sisters everywhere. That was Kaitlin Leung, winner of Who Said That, and her sister, Sarah Leung. Look out for their upcoming cookbook, "The Woks Of Life: Recipes To Know And Love From A Chinese American Family: A Cookbook." Thank you two.

K LEUNG: Thank you so much.

S LEUNG: Thank you guys for having us.

HU: That's it for today's show. For longtime listeners, we shared some really exciting news this week. Don't know if you've heard it yet, but Brittany Luse will be stepping into the host seat next month. A huge congrats to Brittany and the team. I am so excited for y'all and what the show is going to sound like.

All right. This episode was produced by Barton Girdwood, Andrea Gutierrez, Jessica Mendoza, Liam McBain, Jamila Huxtable and Janet Woojeong Lee. Our editor is Jessica Placzek. Engineering help came from Alex Drewenskus, Hannah Gluvna and Neal Rauch. Our executive producer is Veralyn Williams. Yolanda Sangweni is our VP of programming. And our big boss is NPR's senior VP of programming, Anya Grundmann. I'm Elise Hu. You've been listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. Until next time. Take care, y'all.

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