TONY COX, host:
This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Tony Cox. Farai Chideya is away.
All month, we have been exploring different aspects of hip-hop culture, as you all know. Everything from its East Coast roots to its global appeal. We've explored the hype of hip-hop from nearly every possible angle.
So today, in our very last installment of the series, we look at the folks who bring us the news about hip-hop, the journalists who cover the artists, the concerts and the controversies.
Joining us are three journalists who have more than earned their hip-hop stripes. Soren Baker, executive editor at The Source Magazine and author of "The Music Library: The History of Rap and Hip-hop." He is also a contributor to the Los Angeles Times. Noah Callahan-Bever is editor-in-chief of Complex, a lifestyle magazine for men about hip-hop and urban culture. And we have veteran journalist and filmmaker Dream Hampton. Her film about rapper Biggie Smalls called "Bigger Than Life" will be out later this year.
Everybody, thanks so much for coming in.
Mr. SOREN BAKER (Executive Editor, The Source Magazine; Author, "The Music Library): Thanks for having me.
Ms. DREAM HAMPTON (Journalist; Filmmaker, "Bigger Than Life"): Yeah.
COX: It's great. It's great. It's great. Let's start with this. When hip-hop magazines were getting started, hip-hop music spoke to the politics and the social issues of the day. The question is though, do they still do it today and does that make it more or less interesting to cover? Soren, I want to start with you because I can see you.
Mr. BAKER: Okay.
COX: You're sitting here next to me.
Mr. BAKER: Well, I think it still does cover it and it still does exist. The problem lies is that in the golden era of rap, which is in the late 19 - mid to late 1980s and some people say the early 1990s as well - there is more balance in the presentation of rap whether that was from "MTV Raps," whether that was in magazines such as The Source, BET, et cetera, these types of outlets provided a broader spectrum of rap.
So you could see gangster rap right next to political rap, right next to the pop rap. And that has definitely changed, in my opinion, dramatically in the sense that now the political rap doesn't get as much exposure through basically any media form - any form of media these days.
COX: Dream, what about you? You're a veteran. You've been at the game a long time. How do you see it?
Ms. HAMPTON: Yeah, I'm a veteran. I remember - that's interesting - I remember in this at - being at The Source in 1990, when we came up with that tagline: the culture politics then. I think that, certainly, hip-hop for a lot of us was a way to talk about politics. I mean, I remember writing about Winnie Mandela at The Source in 1990 and 1991, when she was having this particular charges and controversies in South Africa. And it was a way for - no one would have been interested, in my opinion, at the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times. So it was a way - we were talking about police brutality. We were talking about a lot of the issues that affected our generation, but we were able to do it through the scope or lens of hip-hop. And that had a lot to do with the activism that was going on, in New York in particular in the early '90s. We were reacting to a lot of the police brutality cases. And there was a lot of organization.
I think that now, yes, I mean, there are certainly - and we also were pioneering something. We were reacting to the fact that Spin Magazine, to this piece on NWA and it was called N-I-G-G-A-Z for Dinner or whatever. It was - these really offensive kind of articles that were happening in mainstream media that had nothing to do with fans of the music covering it or people even from the generation or, you know, from the audience. And so we had an opportunity back then to kind of shape the dialogue and the discourse. Yes, clearly it gone off course but it was just in time.
COX: Noah, I've got a question for you, but before I ask it, I want you to listen to this, okay?
(Soundbite of song, "Public Service Announcement")
JAY-Z (Rapper): (Singing) Allow me to re-introduce myself, my name is HOV. H to the O-V. I used to move snowflakes by the O.Z. I guess even back then you can call me…
COX: Okay. Who gets - obviously, that's Jay-Z - which hip-hop artist today get the most coverage and why do they get the coverage that they get?
Mr. NOAH CALLAHAN-BEVER (Editor in Chief, Complex magazine): In magazines?
COX: This period.
Mr. CALLAHAN-BEVER: I mean, obviously, Jay-Z, 50 Cent are probably the most covered - Eminem. I mean, essentially it comes down to the fact that they sell magazines and they say interesting things that, you know, compel people to want to read their stories. There are people like, say, OutKast, who are tremendously famous and made great music, but are not particularly compelling as personalities. Somehow, I don't know if I answered your question.
COX: What does that mean? That there's no drama, not enough drama around them?
Mr. CALLAHAN-BEVER: Well, they actually do have plenty of drama. I just think that there's something innately personal in the music of 50 or Jay or Em that makes a connection with listeners, that makes them want to know everything that's on their mind in a way where OutKast will have them humming and they'll enjoy the songs, but they don't feel this personal connection like they - like Andre or Big Boi is like speaking to them or that they can relate to what their lives are like.
COX: Soren is smiling here in the studio. Soren, why are you smiling?
Mr. BAKER: Because I have to respectfully disagree. Because in my opinion the problem is, is that the rap media as this become more mainstream, the people that actually cover rap like, say, The Source - when OutKast was coming out in 1993, 1994, because they were from the South, they were not given the same coverage and the level of respect that they deserved because of their artistry or given the merit of their artistry.
So when you have someone like OutKast who doesn't start getting that respect for five, six, seven years, whereas Jay-Z or 50 Cent or the other people that Noah named, get a right off the bat because they're from New York and all the magazines are from New York. There you have your problem. You're not building this up.
Mr. CALLAHAN-BEVER: I think when you look at 50, 50 did not get that respect from anyone for years. It took…
Ms. HAMPTON: And I would say the same thing about Jay-Z. No one jumped on the reasonable doubt.
Mr. CALLAHAN-BEVER: Yeah.
Ms. HAMPTON: And when in fact, when I was covering - when I did a review in the Village Voice of Jay-Z's album, it had to be a double review, if not the second, it was written. And in 1993 - it is true that these media outlets are on the East Coast and that they're - back in the early '90s, there was certainly (unintelligible) I can remember being from Detroit and having these arguments with officemates who were all basically East Coasters and I had to fight to get a Tupac cover in 1993 and there was, you know, really no one more exciting story wars. I mean, he hadn't kind of matured. "Me Against the World" hadn't come out, which I think was when he began to become interesting aesthetically, but he was clearly the most dramatic story in hip-hop, and I had to fight. I mean, I think…
COX: But why - was that because…
Ms. HAMPTON: (unintelligible) the purpose of no one else wanted it.
COX: Was that because he was West Coast at the time as opposed to East Coast?
Ms. HAMPTON: Yeah. There were certainly - I mean, this is right after Tim Dog's "F Campton." I mean, yeah. So there was dismissiveness on the part of - and that's come back to bite the East Coast, I mean, the South. And now you have magazines like Ozone and (unintelligible), which are far more interesting and relevant at this point than magazines.
COX: Well, you know, you answered one of the questions that I was getting ready to ask, Dream, and that was how much support you get from your publications in terms of coverage. So let me put the question in another way and I will come - Noah, at first to you and then to Soren and Dream as well. When you are putting together pieces about hip-hop, where does the pressure come from most? Does it come from the record company? Does it come from the publication or the artist or does it come from the audience, in terms of how you have to fashion your piece?
Mr. CALLAHAN-BEVER: I would say, I mean, it really comes from just the publication in order to make the best story possible. I don't think that the record labels really put any pressure and especially as, you know, you've seen now the decline of record sales and the decline in advertising. I don't think that there is almost - that's even our consideration. I think, really, it comes down to whether or not, you know, a story is sellable. And, you know, then it's just a matter of how good it is.
COX: So that's the audience then, right?
Mr. CALLAHAN-BEVER: Yes.
COX: So what he's saying is, Soren, is that the audience. You agree with what Noah has just said?
Mr. BAKER: Yes. I do.
COX: Yeah. Dream?
Ms. HAMPTON: Well, I think that, yeah, I think that hip-hop magazines, like I was saying, had begun to lose their relevance. Even when you talk about people like Jay-Z or 50 being covered, you're talking about a post-Puffy era where the business of hip-hop has become more interesting than the aesthetics of hip-hop. So that a deal with glass of water is more - a 100 million deal or whatever he ended up taking from that, is more interesting than 50's latest single, "Amusement Park."
So we have begun, not me necessarily, but people who are covering hip-hop still and particularly in the mainstream media, the business has become the bigger story. And I think that that, you know, comes down to like I said a post-Puffy era; Now, you know, has The Coup or any of these other groups.
And the other thing is there's not a new group - there is not a new The Coup. I mean, we produced - I belong to an organization (unintelligible), we produced this concert, Black August, this hip-hop benefit concert, and we've been basically using the same guides, you know, this political rap - Mos Def, Talib Kweli, The Coup. There aren't - and they are like, what? 33, 34 now. There aren't some new 24-year-olds that have come and stepped up to take their place. So we are in an aesthetic crisis with hip-hop right now that reminds me of what broke the Rolling Stone magazine had to deal with in the '80s, when - rock music was just so deplorable and boring, and uncreative and just aesthetically kind of vapid. And I think that's one of the problems that hip-hop magazines face.
COX: Well, we're going to…
Mr. BAKER: Well, I think it's…
COX: Hold on. Let me just tell the audience who we are and what we're doing, and we're going to continue with this conversation.
And you're listening to NPR's NEWS & NOTES. I'm Tony Cox sitting in for Farai Chideya.
If you are just tuning in, we are hosting a special Roundtable on hip-hop journalism to end our month-long series on hip-hop.
With me in studio, Soren Baker who is executive editor at The Source magazine and author of "The Music Library - The History of Rap and Hip-Hop." Joining us by studio, Noah Callahan-Bever, editor in chief of Complex, a lifestyle magazine for men about hip-hop and urban culture, and veteran journalist and filmmaker Dream Hampton. Her film about rapper Biggie Smalls called "Bigger Than Life" will be out later this year.
Noah, hold on. I want to play one more thing for you, then I want to get to you and the question I have and your point.
(Soundbite of song, "So Fresh, So Clean")
OUTKAST (Hip Hop Artist): (Singing) Ain't nobody dope as me I'm dressed so fresh so clean.
Unidentified Group: (Rapping) So fresh and so clean, clean.
OUTKAST: (Singing) Don't you think I'm so sexy I'm dressed so fresh so clean.
Unidentified Group: (Rapping) So fresh and so clean, clean.
OUTKAST: (Singing) Ain't nobody…
COX: Now, that's OutKast, obviously. We talked earlier about the impact of groups like OutKast and others, and the fact that they came out of the South and it had an impact on the kind of coverage that they got versus West Coast versus East Coast.
Here's my question for all three of you, starting with you, Dream. Who's actually reading about hip-hop these days?
Ms. HAMPTON: Well, there was a time, three or four years ago, when everyone was reading about hip-hop when it was the pop music. And I think that that is beginning to change. I don't think that there's been anything to come and replace it, but I think that people who - everyone who runs ad agencies to, you know, just these guys stationed out in Iraq are reading about hip-hop music.
The question is, are they listening to the new stuff that's out? And, you know, and that's something that the music industry is having to deal with in terms of record slumps(ph). I mean, there are only so many times that you can cover a Tiara or whomever has the one great album of the year this year.
COX: Well, I mentioned that, Noah, particularly because across the board print media is - the readership is down. Everybody knows that. And I'm wondering if it's not being the same or if hip-hop journalism in print is not being affected in the same way.
Mr. CALLAHAN-BEVER: I mean, I think it is. I will note that Complex's sales are up by 50 percent this year.
Mr. BAKER: Good for you.
Mr. CALLAHAN-BEVER: But, you know. That aside, no, it definitely - I mean, I think that you're seeing an - this sort of speaks to what Dream is talking about before. You know, when I was growing up reading The Source, reading the stuff that Dream was writing there - like the stories were about the people and how they made their art.
And now, if you read any of the different hip-hop magazines, the stories are essentially like poorly reported Forbes stories. They detail the deals and how the record labels have screwed over people and this, and the other thing. And there's very little communication of the artists' actual identity.
And I think that you're seeing sort of a cycle now where because there's this lack of personal connection, there's less interest in the artists. And you know, I think it's a greater issue, you know, having to do with MP3s and all those other stuff. But I do think on the journalism side that's part of why you're seeing a lag in sales and a lack of new superstars.
COX: What about that, Soren? I have a copy of The Source here in my hand.
Mr. BAKER: Well, I think - I agree with Noah on many levels and I also think part of the problem is as rap has become more popular, people are looking at it as, oh, man, I want to be a journalist. But they don't do anything to prepare to be a journalist. They don't go to school for it. They don't really study how to write well. They don't do their research. And I think unlike people of Dream's generation or our generation where we grew up studying rap, loving rap, going to concerts, being in the environment, a lot of the kids today that are getting into it, they don't bring any perspective to it.
So you have this whole generation of journalists now that have no perspective that couldn't tell you - Dream and I and Noah probably could name 30 people off the top of our heads each that none of these people know anything about, yet they're very important. So that also contributes to it because the writers presenting the artists, they have no perspective themselves.
And then you have also artists that I want to make one point, too, it's like Dream was saying earlier, there was a - there's a big, big difference that's happened in rap in the last few years, which is the main thing in the '70s and '80s in particular was to be the best rapper. That was the goal. It was to make the most money. It wasn't to have a record label. It wasn't to be an actor. The whole goal was to be the best. And that's obviously intangible. You can't really ever achieve it but you hope to.
Now, the whole goal is to become a businessman or businesswoman and have all these other things, and oh, yeah, rap, too. They use it as a springboard. So it's a totally different mind state for the people that are actually becoming rappers. So that's why they're not as compelling.
COX: There's so much more I wanted to talk to all three of you about, but we don't have the time to do that. So let's bring our conversation to a close with this. As a field to working is - and I need your answers to be really quick - is this still a good place to be a journalist, a hip-hop journalist? Is it good? Soren?
Mr. BAKER: For me, it is. I love it.
Mr. CALLAHAN-BEVER: Yeah.
COX: Dream?
Ms. HAMPTON: I think that if they diversify, like, if they aren't so concerned - like, again, like the '80s Rolling Stone. I mean, Hunter Thompson started pulling on presidential campaign elections. We have two wars going on. So I think that if the music isn't interesting then let's talk about the things surrounding the music. Let's talk about what the audience is going through, you know?
And I think that, yeah, we need to diversify. We need to talk about more than the music and the things surrounding the music. That was certainly what we were trying to do in the early '90s, at least, at The Source.
COX: Noah, you get the last word on this.
Mr. CALLAHAN-BEVER: No. I mean, I agree with Dream and that's - for me, why it's so great working at Complex and having that ability to spread my wings in a lifestyle direction, so that I'm not talking about the nuts and bolts of music when there's absolutely nothing going on.
COX: You know…
Ms. HAMPTON: That's so sad.
COX: …it - well, it is sort of sad because I think in one sense, a lot of people who are not familiar with hip-hop, the journalism is one way to get into it. And if there's not a good place to go to get a serious level of writing, it makes it difficult.
But I appreciate all of you coming on. Soren Baker is executive editor at The Source magazine, and author of "The Music Library - The History of Rap and Hip-Hop." He joined me here in NPR West. Noah Callahan-Bever is the editor in chief of Complex, a lifestyle magazine for men about hip-hop and urban culture. He joined us from NPR in New York. And Dream Hampton, a veteran journalist and filmmaker, joined us from Martha's Vineyard, of all places.
Thank you so much. You can hear all of the interviews from our hip-hop series at our Web site, npr.org/newsandnotes.
Ms. HAMPTON: Thank you very much.
Mr. CALLAHAN-BEVER: Thank you.
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