The loneliness and longing of Luther Vandross; plus Grammy winner Samara Joy
BRITTANY LUSE, HOST:
Hey, everyone. You're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Brittany Luse.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
LUSE: This weekend is the 65th annual Grammy Awards ceremony. And what better time to talk about one of the all-time musical greats - Luther Vandross.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "NEVER TOO MUCH")
LUTHER VANDROSS: (Singing) Never too much, never too much, never too much, never too much.
LUSE: In his lifetime, he won eight Grammy Awards and was nominated for 33. And he's laid the groundwork for a lot of my faves in R&B, some of whom are also up for awards this weekend - artists like Jazmine Sullivan...
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HURT ME SO GOOD")
JAZMINE SULLIVAN: (Singing) ...That I need you - hate it 'cause you know I need you, baby - when you know how to hurt me...
LUSE: ...Mary J. Blige...
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HERE WITH ME")
MARY J BLIGE: (Singing) Here with me, here with me...
LUSE: ...And, of course, Babyface.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "KEEPS ON FALLIN'")
BABYFACE: (Singing) Oh, baby, falling - keeps on falling in love...
LUSE: Luther's music changed the sound of R&B. He created a new standard, and his songs have become a staple for just about every major life event - weddings, family reunions and even a few births. This month also marks 20 years since Luther's last performance at Radio City Music Hall.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
VANDROSS: We're going to sing them all for you tonight.
(APPLAUSE)
VANDROSS: Every last one of them.
LUSE: Two months later, Vandross suffered a debilitating stroke, and in 2005, he passed away. And though he lives on in our hearts and on our playlists, the icon status held by artists like Whitney and Aretha has escaped Luther. There is no Luther biopic, no tell-all memoir, no "Unsung" episode, nothing. But there is a book about him, written by veteran music journalist Craig Seymour, titled "Luther: The Life And Longing Of Luther Vandross." Today on the show, I talk with Craig, and we make the case for why Luther Vandross should be on the Mount Rushmore of American music. Craig Seymour, welcome to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE. It's so great to have you.
CRAIG SEYMOUR: Oh, thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
LUSE: We're about to talk on one of my favorite topics. I definitely think he's one of your favorite topics. We're going to be talking Luther today.
SEYMOUR: Yes. Luther.
LUSE: Yes.
SEYMOUR: Luther.
LUSE: Luther, exactly. But let me go back some. You interviewed Luther quite a bit over the years, and you spent, you know, a decent amount of time with him. What's a memory that always makes you laugh or smile when you think about Luther?
SEYMOUR: Luther trips me out. Luther always - I mean, he stayed making me laugh. He respected me and respected what I was trying to ask. But he also knew that there were certain limitations to what he was going to say. So I just remember this time this one guy came over, and he's like, oh, Luther, oh. And they were hugging and stuff like that. And they were talking. And Luther's like, oh, yeah, but I'll get back to you. I'm doing this interview with this person, Craig Seymore from Vibe. He was like, yeah, Craig's trying to pump me for all this information that he ain't going to get, but whatever. I'm just going to sit here and mind my business and blah blah blah. Just a lot of things like that.
(LAUGHTER)
SEYMOUR: That was just very, very funny.
LUSE: How do you want us to remember Luther's legacy?
SEYMOUR: I mean, if I had to cut it down to one thing, which you do have to do in history, I feel he's something on the lines of, like, the great R&B interpreter. His greatest artistry is the way that he could break down songs and interpret songs and make it like you never heard them before and make them speak so viscerally to your experience.
LUSE: Yes. Like, "A House Is Not A Home" is a staple Luther track, but it's actually a Dionne Warwick song. And, you know, even she said, that's Luther's song. Like, it's his now. Just to compare, I'm going to play Dionne's version of the song.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "A HOUSE IS NOT A HOME")
DIONNE WARWICK: (Singing) I'm not meant to live alone. Turn this house into a home. When I climb the stairs and turn the key...
LUSE: OK, now, let's hear Luther's version.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "A HOUSE IS NOT A HOME")
VANDROSS: (Singing) I'm not meant to live alone. Turn this house into a home. When I climb the stairs and...
LUSE: You know, you said that Luther took ballads to new epic heights. You know, he's got the worldbuilding and the lyricism and the runs and the phrasing. What's one song that you think really encapsulates Luther's excellence in balladry?
SEYMOUR: I would go with "Superstar/Until You Come Back To Me."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SUPERSTAR/UNTIL YOU COME BACK TO ME (THAT'S WHAT I'M GONNA DO)")
VANDROSS: (Singing) Don't you remember you told me you loved me, baby?
SEYMOUR: But on the last live album he recorded, I think what he does with "House Is Not A Home" is really - you really get everything that he's doing with a ballad and how he can both make it a statement connecting people and connecting people's sense of loneliness.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "ANY LOVE")
VANDROSS: (Singing) What a world for the lonely guy. Sometimes I feel I'm going to lose my mind.
SEYMOUR: And Luther hated when people would misinterpret his music and call him things like Dr. Love or, ooh, you make all those baby-making things. And, you know, and just - I know how much smoke I got when I brought it up. I mean, he would not let you call him, ooh, you're Dr. Love. You have them love - it's like, oof, if you wanted to get him mad, you could say that. And if you said, oh, you know, you make them baby-making songs, he was like, I do not want to be associated with the bedroom. You know, I am about the heart and romance and everything like that. Do not - and I was like, well, why - Luther, why you so salty? Like, what's the tea? Why this, of all things to get under your skin? He says it takes away from my artistry and what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to be the premier balladeer of my time, not the, you know, knock-the-boots person.
LUSE: Something that comes up in your book is that a lot of the people that Luther worked with found him to be difficult and demanding. But you see it differently.
SEYMOUR: One lesson I learned so much about his excellence in that is that - this was when his song "Take You Out" was coming out. But...
LUSE: Oh, yeah.
SEYMOUR: ...Again, this was a new date. The new band and singers did not know it. So they were singing and everything like that. I'm grooving and that - come on - you know? (Singing) Can I - I'm dancing...
LUSE: Right. It's a groovy kind of song.
SEYMOUR: Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "TAKE YOU OUT")
VANDROSS: (Singing) Possibly, can I take you out tonight? To a movie, to the park...
SEYMOUR: And then, all of a sudden, he says, stop. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. And I'm going, (vocalizing). And he said, 'cause one of the lyrics is, take you out to a movie. He said, somebody said movies. Somebody said, movies. It's - movie - it's one movie. We only going to see one movie tonight. It's movie.
(LAUGHTER)
SEYMOUR: I was like, dang. But then he explained to me later - he's like, you don't understand. My background singers are at the top of their craft. They want to be corrected. They want to do it right. So I'm simply telling them the correct lyric. And just to see that level of Black excellence and all of these creative Black, people striving for that kind of excellence over something that some of us would just think would be like, who cares? You know, Black excellence is a process. It's something you have to commit to. And that's what Luther and his band were all about, and I just found that so inspiring.
LUSE: Luther was exacting, but that's what made him great and what ultimately allowed him to befriend the greats. Luther's hot celebrity gossip after this quick break.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
LUSE: Now, here's the thing some of you might not know. Luther's story is entwined with some of music's biggest stars. He shared fried chicken and soap opera gossip sessions with Aretha Franklin when they were in the studio together. He used to go shopping with Patti LaBelle. And Whitney Houston opened for Luther when she was just starting out. And his career was star-studded from the beginning.
SEYMOUR: Whew. He was just able to get such an early - a middle school graduate degree education in just watching the greats. I mean, he grew up going to the Apollo, seeing artists like Patti LaBelle and the Bluebells, seeing all the Motown stars.
LUSE: He was in a group that was put together by the owners of the Apollo.
SEYMOUR: Yeah. And then with his first big gig - with his first big break was with David Bowie, where he's arranging out of - going from never having arranged a song for anybody to arranging vocals on "Young Americans" - like, a definitive rock 'n' roll classic. And then Bowie...
LUSE: Right.
SEYMOUR: ...Takes him on tour. I mean, he was playing the top venues in the world because he was with David Bowie.
LUSE: Right.
SEYMOUR: And David also always made him open the show, which was disastrous.
LUSE: He was the first person put him out - to put him out in front of a crowd like that.
SEYMOUR: He made him open the show, singing his little song, you know? And then - and Luther would go to him and say, David, these people hate me. They're throwing tomatoes. They're doing this. They're whoo-ing (ph) at - it doesn't matter what they do. You are fantastic. Go out there and get what you need from them and learn from them. That's all that matters. So you just can't get that kind of training anywhere.
As much as Luther was trained by some greats, Luther trained a whole lot of greats that have gone on to work with other people - so like Cindy Mizelle, who works with Mariah Carey. You know, Luther did upgrade the entire R&B vocal and performing experience. It's like a disco ball that shatters, that's just - you can see pieces of it reflected, refracted everywhere.
LUSE: You know, I mean, continuing on the idea of Luther's influence, like, he also changed the way R&B performances were produced, from the staging to the costumes and beyond. Talk to me about what Luther did to change the game in that respect.
SEYMOUR: I mean, Luther made the R&B show become a theatrical experience because a show that you would see in the early '70s would be like, whether you saw it in a club or a big stadium or whatever, it's - it was the same show. You know, and it'd be entertaining, and people would be singing. And there'd be a lot of moving and dancing on the stage and stuff like that. But it didn't give you theater. It didn't give you sort of like, you were being taken on a very controlled journey. I mean, I saw the Mothership land - Parliament-Funkadelic.
LUSE: Wow.
SEYMOUR: That was one of my earliest experience. And that was incredible to see this Mothership...
LUSE: Wow. Yeah.
SEYMOUR: ...You know, to see this thing land from the sky. But it was more giving you, like, sci-fi vibes. It wasn't giving you theater, where Luther really had this whole presentation where I felt more like I was seeing something that I had seen on Broadway, like "The Wiz" or something. And just his banter with the audience - it wasn't just random. Hey, do you see - are you here - it wasn't just random. I mean, he had jokes. The songs went into each other in a way that made sense. He had, like, a ballerina perform on top of a piano. Just all of these elements really helped bring in the age of the concert as a experience that's different from just somebody showing up and performing.
LUSE: Right. I mean, you mention in the book that, like, when you would see people streaming into his concerts, they would be wearing things to go see a concert that - I mean, I remember seeing my parents get dressed to go see Luther and artists like him. My father would be wearing a suit. My mom was wearing, like, a cocktail dress at the very least and putting on a fur coat. There was a certain level of polish that the audience brought also to the space, almost like they were anticipating Luther was going to bring it, so they needed to bring it as well.
SEYMOUR: It was a celebration of Black elegance away from the white gaze, where it was just - we were showing each other how fabulous - look how fabulous we are.
LUSE: So I wonder, where do you see the influence of Luther's showmanship in live R&B performance today?
SEYMOUR: Certain artists do really take their time and lean into the emotion of the song and make sure that the song is not just something that people are snapping along to, but we really get to experience every line and every emotional journey of the song. And I definitely feel a person like Jazmine Sullivan does that really, really well.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PICK UP YOUR FEELINGS")
SULLIVAN: (Singing) You can run them streets. But don't forget to come and pick up your, oh, feelings. And don't leave no...
SEYMOUR: Every time I go to a Beyonce show, I see Luther. I feel Luther's spirit, you know? And just knowing how much Beyonce's mother, Miss Tina Knowles, was a Luther fan and went to all those shows and how much of an influence she was in the early days of shaping Beyonce's aesthetic.
LUSE: You know, OK, so I grew up with my parents listening to Luther. Like, Luther to me has always been a musical institution. But one of the things that I've come to understand through your writing is that Luther presented a change in the sound of R&B. How did Luther change the sound of R&B?
SEYMOUR: Well, Luther changed the sound of R&B because, along with other people, R&B became much more smooth in the '70s. Around the time that Luther was developing and not yet succeeding, you had a whole bunch of jazz-influenced vocalists who were doing R&B, and that sound was very smooth and very different from what had come before. So - and that's - those are the artists that came to define what was known as the quiet storm. You have people like Phyllis Hyman, Angela Bofill, Michael Henderson.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "IN THE NIGHT TIME")
MICHAEL HENDERSON: (Singing) But in the nighttime, it always comes out right.
SEYMOUR: Those people were really kind of smoothing out R&B and making it a little bit more elevated, but coming from the point of view of jazz training. And so then you have Luther kind of on that same wave.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DON'T YOU KNOW THAT?")
VANDROSS: (Singing) Baby, don't you know - don't you know that I love you...
SEYMOUR: It was kind of a reflection of just how people had migrated away from the South and were kind of trying to form these new, more cosmopolitan identities for themselves. But it was just kind of like these amplified and sort of upgraded expressions of Black elegance. Like, you know, the kind of thinking of, like, how elegance was such a form of resistance for Black folks throughout history. Like, people can call you whatever, but if you could dust off your clothes to put on your Sunday best to walk to church, then that's a form of resistance. That's a statement of self-worth. And Luther really brought that into his music and to his concerts because, musically, he refused to have to use outmoded forms of Black expressions - what he would probably say, like, a whole lot screaming and shouting - to represent the contemporary...
LUSE: (Laughter).
SEYMOUR: ...Black experience because he wasn't, you know - he wasn't like a former working out in the fields that stumbled into a recording studio and started singing the blues or anything like that. Luther Vandross was a cosmopolitan New Yorker, and he wanted to express that. And he's influencing the sound of artists like Anita Baker.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SWEET LOVE")
ANITA BAKER: (Singing) Sweet love, hear me calling out your name.
SEYMOUR: ...And just the Freddie Jacksons, just the kind of smooth people that would come after him.
LUSE: Talk to me about how Luther's songwriting presentation style redefined masculinity in R&B.
SEYMOUR: People talk about how Luther - you know, how hard it was for him to get a recording deal and all that kind of stuff. And that was absolutely true. But one of the main sticking points from him getting a recording deal is that he demanded that he had creative control and that he was able to write and record his own material. So what that allowed Luther to do is he was able to redefine masculinity because he was singing songs that he wrote or songs he specifically selected, as opposed to singing songs that people were submitting to him that would reflect how a male R&B singer was supposed to sound.
So what you then get is these really yearning ballads that don't have - in most cases, don't really have specific pronouns, and they're really not so much about sex and seduction as they are about just that kind of longing for romance, longing for connection. Maybe you get the connection for one night and then need it again. You know what I mean? It's like - and, you know, a lot of people were talking about, you know, Luther's sexuality, his own sexuality and everything like that and think sometimes he was being coy, but he really wasn't. It was the text itself. It wasn't the subtext.
LUSE: Luther produced and wrote for Aretha. He toured with Lionel Richie, but still, the mainstream crossover and many of the Grammys that he wanted and was nominated for evaded him. Why do you think that is?
SEYMOUR: Yeah. Well, it was this kind of thing that - I mean, there's so many things about it in terms of how Black artists were controlled in the '80s and how he didn't play the game. He, for example, in - there were - in music departments, there were Black departments and then the pop departments. Now, Luther would be in the Black department, and you had to prove that you had a song worthy enough to cross over to the pop department for them to even be able to push it to start getting on those pop stations. They would always tell Luther, we can't get your songs on pop radio because of the material, because you write it yourself and everything like that. They did not want to support a Black man writing and producing his own material getting onto the pop charts.
LUSE: You know, I keep thinking about, like, Luther's place in music superstardom. And I know that for me, as a Black millennial, it's only as I've gotten older that I understand the ways in which Luther was snubbed during his lifetime whenever he would make attempts to cross over or snubbed by larger audiences or white critics or whatever. But also, I have this other thought about why his place in the pop culture ecosystem doesn't quite always reach the same level of superstardom as some people who were his peers or some people who were his mentors or people who he worked for, worked with. I have this theory that you kind of have to be OK with having your personal narrative be out there in order to reach that top level and garner crossover appeal. People have to know your kids' names, or they have to have seen your wedding photos, or you have to write a searing memoir. And Luther was somebody who was always angling for privacy. Why would privacy have been more appealing to him than hitting the upper echelon of pop stardom?
SEYMOUR: Well, I think during the time - because, again, we're talking about the '80s, and we're talking about AIDS hysteria and a very violent, you know, homophobic - in terms of rhetoric and actual acts of violence - rhetoric. There's no way that coming out would have worked for him. There's no way that coming out as a Black gay man would have given him any support because the mainstream white community just would have had no even understanding or way of supporting him like that. It's like, they would probably not even know who he was. Luther was very close to his mother. He wouldn't want to do anything to upset his mother. I think he was juggling a lot of those type of things. When I interviewed him, I really just saw that as kind of, like, decades long of conversations. And eventually, we were going to get to the point where he said, well, I've gotten to this point where now, you know, I'm old enough. I just want to say my truth, and it is what it is.
LUSE: Like Johnny Mathis.
SEYMOUR: Yeah, exactly. Like, I felt like that was - I really felt like that was coming, and it was exciting, you know? And then now what's happened is that the people - which I can understand. Like, his best friend, Fonzi Thornton, and the people that govern his estate - they don't really want to talk about any of these issues now because he'd be like, Fonzi's protecting his friend, and I would want my friend to do the same thing. Like, if I told my...
LUSE: I know. It's like, just because I died doesn't mean y'all can just start talking about me...
SEYMOUR: Like, if I told my friend...
LUSE: ...In a way that I wouldn't have wanted to when I was alive.
SEYMOUR: Yeah. If I told my friend, hey, don't be talking about - don't let them talk about all this mess after I go, well, then whether or not you think it's the wise or best thing to do in the moment, if you really a friend, you're going to stay to that. So I understand. But at the same time, like, what has stopped the - it being, like, a biopic for my book, but the thing about it is at some point, you do have to talk about somebody's life and the connection of the life to the music. And if you do that, the estate is not going to let the music be in the movie or be in the project. And if you don't do it, there's going to be no audience because you're not really keeping it real with the audience.
So it's - I've accepted it. It's sort of what it is. I think that if you just listen to the music, you will understand that he's telling us everything that we ever would need to know. And it's not like he's a man that - you know, it's not like he's a man that had a bunch of lovers, and they're all hiding in the woodwork to come out. He had very few people that he ever dealt with. The loneliness he talks about is real, and that's almost realer and more of a part of his identity than any sort of sexual orientation. You know what I mean? And that's why my favorite Luther song is "Wait For Love."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "WAIT FOR LOVE")
VANDROSS: (Singing) ...Takes a long time. Wait for love, and you're going to get the chance to love. Wait for love, wait for love...
LUSE: Craig, thank you so much for coming on the show today and talking with me about Luther. My soul needed this today.
SEYMOUR: Thank you. Thank you. You got me all tearing up and stuff. (Laughter) All right.
LUSE: Coming up, we're talking about another artist with a very bright future ahead of her. She's a Grammy nominee for best new artist, and she's no stranger to Luther Vandross.
SAMARA JOY: (Vocalizing). (Laughter). I was going to say I can hear it in my head.
LUSE: Gen Z and jazz right after this quick break. I'm Brittany Luse, and you're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
LUSE: The 2023 Grammy Awards are being handed out this weekend. So we caught up with one of the nominees for best new artist, Samara Joy. Her sophomore album, "Linger Awhile," is also nominated for best jazz vocal album.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SOCIAL CALL")
JOY: (Singing) ...Starting from this incidental, elemental, simple social call.
LUSE: Her vocals are sumptuous, the melodies agile, the storytelling captivating. And to top it all off, Samara Joy is just 23 years old. So I wanted to know more about this Gen Z jazz singer and how she makes music that feels timeless.
Samara Joy, welcome to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE.
JOY: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.
LUSE: You have been nominated for two Grammy Awards, one of which is best new artist. The last time a jazz singer won best new artist was Esperanza Spalding in 2011. It's unusual for a jazz artist to be represented in this award category. What do you think of that?
JOY: Even I was like, me?
(LAUGHTER)
JOY: Like, am I in this - you want me to be here? Being nominated, period, but, like, being up for best new artist Grammy is just unbelievable to me.
LUSE: You know, you're known for practicing a difficult vocal style called vocalese. For those unfamiliar, can you explain what it is and how you use it?
JOY: You take a recording, like an instrumental solo that doesn't have words to it, and you put words to it. I used it on my album. One song is entitled "Nostalgia" by a trumpet player named Fats Navarro.
(SOUNDBITE OF FATS NAVARRO'S "NOSTALGIA")
JOY: I wrote lyrics to his improvised solo in his composed melody.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "NOSTALGIA (THE DAY I KNEW)")
JOY: (Singing) Nostalgia hit me as I recall the day I knew that I loved you.
And the other was already a standard, called "I'm Confessin' (That I Love You)."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I'M CONFESSIN' (THAT I LOVE YOU)")
JOY: (Singing) I have a confession to make, and I tried to resist, but I can't help the way that I feel. I love you so.
LUSE: I'm nowhere near you now, but I grew up singing, and vocalese is, like, incomprehensible to me. Thinking about doing that with my voice, it's challenging. Was that something that you grew up doing, or was it something that you were trained into? Like, how did you pick it up?
JOY: Towards the end of college, I had a transcription class, learning solos class, and my professor at the time encouraged me to write lyrics to the solos. I had never done it growing up before, maybe besides - everybody knows (singing) there I go, there I go, there I go, there I go.
Like, "Moody's Mood For Love" - that's a vocalese. But - yeah, but I'd never grown up doing it. And I just - I kind of picked it up just because of encouragement, and then I kind of took it into my own, I guess.
LUSE: Something else that struck me about your music and, you know, reading into other people's reactions and responses to it is how much people from other generations really connect with your music. A song of yours called "Nostalgia" has gotten quite a response from people who are generations ahead of you.
JOY: I mean, that's really cool, considering that's one of the vocaleses.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "NOSTALGIA (THE DAY I KNEW)")
JOY: (Singing) A vision of perfection, heaven's very essence, that you were.
I heard it. I was like, this is really lyrical. I want to try to write lyrics on top of it because it's such a great melody. It lends itself to words.
(SOUNDBITE OF FATS NAVARRO'S "NOSTALGIA")
JOY: And Fats Navarro, the trumpet player who wrote the song and played it, he died when he was 26 years old, just at the brink, you know, of, like, his, you know, musicianship. So...
LUSE: Right.
JOY: ...It's nice to hear, you know, that my lyrics to this beautiful melody and solo are connecting with people now. It's already been a beautiful song, but, you know, having words to it allows it to connect with more people.
LUSE: In the lyrics to this song, you make references to, like, 50 years ago...
JOY: Yeah.
LUSE: ...And imagining my life without you. What puts you into that frame of mind where you're able to write in that way?
JOY: I mean, I think of my grandparents. They got married April of 1950, and they were together until my grandmother passed in, like, 2008. So I think of them. I think of my parents. They've been married for 32 years now. I look at all of this love around me, and then I think about Fats Navarro and think about the love that he could have had, you know? What if he had lived long enough to see his impact, if he had lived long enough to experience the kind of love that I've seen my whole life? So I thought about that and thought about maybe what would he say if he had the chance to express that to somebody. So...
LUSE: I read that growing up, you weren't allowed to listen to rap. Your dad actually gave you an iPod - (laughter) iPod - with his music that he wanted you to listen to on it, like Chaka Khan, The Clark Sisters, Luther Vandross. No rap.
JOY: And, I mean, they weren't, like, super strict, but, like, the one song that I love - that, like, reminds me of it is Bruno Mars' "Grenade." They were like, you cannot sing that song. What are you talking about? I'll catch a grenade for you?
LUSE: (Laughter).
JOY: What? Throw my head on the blade? Do you know words have power? There's life and death in the power of the tongue. You're not singing about catching no grenade over somebody. So...
(LAUGHTER)
LUSE: They were trying to set you on the straight and narrow path. They were like, we're not having that. We're not having that.
JOY: It was like, no. It was like, no. Here is this iPod Touch to and from school. That's what I listened to.
(LAUGHTER)
LUSE: Your family is full of musicians and singers. How have they influenced your musicianship?
JOY: They're everything. My No. 1 album that I listened to was my family's album because...
LUSE: Wow.
JOY: ...They recorded a record before I was born.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
THE MCLENDON FAMILY: (Singing) There will always be an answer for you.
JOY: I know every single song on that record.
LUSE: (Laughter).
JOY: I know each of my family's voices. I'm like, yep, that's my uncle. That's my cousin right there. That's my dad. Yeah, I remember this one. This is a hit. You know, it's a hit in my house.
LUSE: (Laughter).
JOY: And so everything from, like, the quality of my voice to, like, the artistic liberties that I take whenever I'm, like, singing a melody and stuff like that, it all comes from them. Like, they're my literal foundation and my first inspiration. So...
LUSE: And you all recorded a song together at Christmas, "O Holy Night."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "O HOLY NIGHT")
JOY: (Singing) O night divine.
LUSE: What was that like, to - like, after listening to the album for so many years, you're like, OK, like, we're all in the studio together. What was it like?
JOY: Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. It was so much fun. It was so much fun. We recorded in Philly to be close to my grandfather because he's 92 now. And he sang. He sang a verse on the song, as well. But yeah, my cousins, my brother, my uncle and my dad - we all got together and we sang. And I was just like, oh, my gosh. I'm living my literal dream. And not only did we do that. We went on tour around Christmastime. We did four gigs together, back to back to back to back, and it was amazing. Every show sold out. It was incredible. It was incredible.
LUSE: Oh, that is so - I love this. Like, I'm so happy for y'all. That's such a cool thing to be able to do together at the holidays.
JOY: I, like, did a little interview of my grandfather a couple of weeks later, just to kind of ask him questions about his life and, you know, that kind of thing. And he was like, y'all got to do that again. I don't know what has to happen, but y'all got to do that again.
LUSE: Look, Christmas 2023. Let me know. I'll be there.
JOY: Listen. We might have a very special New York location in the books for 2023. I can't say too much now.
LUSE: (Laughter) I'll be on the lookout.
JOY: But it's in the books. It's in the books.
LUSE: You know, I found it really interesting that you got into jazz, like, in your last years of high school and really started singing it in college. You'd been hesitant for years to do it, but you had, you know, professors, peers, teachers that encouraged you. What about jazz music made you realize that, like, this is what I got to do?
JOY: I think it was the acoustic nature of it, like, the stripped down, nothing but the instruments and voices kind of thing. You know? Because I grew up listening to a lot of music. I grew up imitating some amazing singers. Lalah Hathaway...
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "FOREVER, FOR ALWAYS, FOR LOVE")
LALAH HATHAWAY: (Singing) Change.
JOY: Just some of the most incredible singers ever. And I still felt kind of like a chameleon, I guess. Like, I was like, I can, you know, imitate a little bit of this, imitate a little bit of that, but when I sing, where do I feel at home? But when I started listening to live recordings of Sarah Vaughan...
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "'ROUND MIDNIGHT")
SARAH VAUGHAN: (Singing) It begins to tell 'round midnight, 'round midnight...
JOY: ...And Ella Fitzgerald...
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "'ROUND MIDNIGHT")
ELLA FITZGERALD: (Singing) I do pretty well till after sundown.
JOY: ...Betty Carter...
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "'ROUND MIDNIGHT")
BETTY CARTER: (Singing) That's the time you'll feel so lonesome.
JOY: ...I was like, this is what I want to do. Like, it doesn't get old. You know, it doesn't sound old to me. It sounds like they're contemporary in their own time. And so I was like, this is something I want to know more about.
LUSE: Contemporary mainstream music is so different from jazz, and yet you are this Gen Z jazz star. How do you make music feel timeless as a Gen Z jazz singer?
JOY: I don't know if there's any one way to make music feel timeless. And honestly, I don't know if that's the goal because there's so much music that is put out every single day. The goal is just to keep making music, to keep growing and to be the best artist that you can be. And, you know, I don't know if Lauryn Hill went into the studio like, OK, "Miseducation" about to be timeless. This is about to be the one. Not about to make nothing else. This is going to be the timeless record. D'Angelo "Voodoo" - this is going be it. I mean, we're going to make a timeless record. Like, they just did it, you know? They were the best artists that they could be at that time, making art that they organically and naturally heard. And we end up with, you know, some of the greatest music of all time. So...
LUSE: I've heard you express this idea that jazz music is naturally progressive. Like, it's always going to be on the cutting edge stylistically.
JOY: Yeah, I think that whenever I look at and listen to my heroes, again, they weren't trying to make something timeless. I think it's naturally progressive because it's not forced. As we play and as we practice and as we get better, the music just changes, you know, because we're coming into our individual artistry.
LUSE: Thank you so much for coming on the show today. This was so cool. (Laughter) This was very, very cool. And yeah, and good luck with everything.
JOY: Thank you so much for having me. You're wonderful.
LUSE: That was jazz singer Samara Joy, nominated for best new artist and best jazz vocal album at the 2023 Grammy Awards. This episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE was produced by...
BARTON GIRDWOOD, BYLINE: Barton Girdwood.
ALEXIS WILLIAMS, BYLINE: Alexis Williams.
LIAM MCBAIN, BYLINE: Liam McBain.
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LUSE: It was produced and edited by...
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LUSE: It was edited by...
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LUSE: Engineering support came from...
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TED MEBANE, BYLINE: Ted Mebane.
LUSE: We had fact-checking help from...
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LUSE: Our executive producer is...
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LUSE: Our senior VP of programming is...
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LUSE: All right. That's our show for today. I'm Brittany Luse. See you next week for another episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR.
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