< News Round Up: mammoth meatballs, stressed plants and apologetic robots

EMILY KWONG, HOST:

You're listening to SHORT WAVE...

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KWONG: ...From NPR.

Hey, hey, SHORT WAVErs. Emily Kwong here.

REGINA BARBER, BYLINE: With Regina Barber.

MARGARET CIRINO, BYLINE: And producer Margaret Cirino.

KWONG: And we are here to dish on some of the big, weird, fascinating science news that's caught our attention.

CIRINO: Mostly weird, though.

KWONG: Yeah.

BARBER: But we're going to dive into the headlines, the science journals and social media. And today, we're serving up mammoth meatballs, both massive and kind of made of prehistoric meat.

CIRINO: Then we pass the mic to some stressed out plants to see if they have anything to get off their little plant chests.

KWONG: And we call up our robot overlords and call them out on their lies. You're listening to the SHORT WAVE science roundup from NPR.

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BARBER: I want, like, roundup music, like we're cowgirls.

KWONG: Oh, my God. No. Please, no.

OK. Regina Barber, scientist in residence, scavenging around the world of weird science. You've brought us something from the land of food.

KWONG: Yeah. I mean, I brought you something I wanted to eat. So in Amsterdam last week, an Australian company called Vow unveiled something huge in a genius publicity stunt to get people talking about lab-grown, or cultured, meat.

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UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: The mammoth is a symbol of loss, but we wondered, could this prehistoric creature also become a beacon of hope?

KWONG: Wow.

CIRINO: What the heck?

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UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Introducing the mammoth meatball.

CIRINO: A symbol of loss.

KWONG: Also, so alliterative - mammoth meatball. Trademark that.

BARBER: OK, so it's not really a mammoth meatball. It's a lab-grown sheep meatball with, like, half a mammoth gene shoved into it.

CIRINO: Ew.

BARBER: Well, the point Vow is trying to make with the woolly mammoth is that we need to focus on cultured meat, since 15% of global emissions is from the meat industry.

CIRINO: OK. I will admit that I've never eaten a woolly mammoth before.

BARBER: Surprise.

CIRINO: Is that possible?

BARBER: So yeah, like in the Arctic, you can find frozen mammoth meat, like, just buried under ice for tens of thousands of years. The fat turns to basically soap, and the flesh is so freezer burnt that once it's thawed, it turns to goo.

KWONG: Delicious.

CIRINO: That is not appetizing to me. How did they make this?

BARBER: Yeah, since gooey mammoth meat does exist in the Arctic, scientists were able to sequence large portions of woolly mammoth DNA back in '08 and made it public. And the Vow scientists used that to find the specific mammoth gene that produces an iron-containing protein found in muscle tissue. And that's what helps give, like, red meat its characteristic taste and color. And gaps in that mammoth gene sequence were filled with genetic data from an African elephant gene sequence. So this Frankenstein gene was then inserted into sheep cells, which they grew and turned into a meatball.

KWONG: This is, like, science fiction level kind of genetic recombination.

CIRINO: Yeah. Wow.

KWONG: I also love that they pulled in elephant DNA. Like, they're close cousins. It's close enough, right? Right?

BARBER: Yeah.

KWONG: So how do you how do you grow that from the culture?

BARBER: So they grow these cells in these, like, giant vats, like, kind of like the ones you see at breweries. And the cells are fed these, like - these serums to help them grow. And some of these serums are actually made from stem cells or from euthanized cow fetuses, which makes this process not entirely cruelty-free in some instances.

KWONG: Yeah.

BARBER: But both these serums are very expensive. So that's why cultured meat is so costly to make right now.

KWONG: OK. Last question. Does anyone know how this meatball tastes?

CIRINO: Yeah, I don't know if I want these now, but I can provide a mailing address if needed.

BARBER: No one tasted it. It was just for show. But Vow said it smelled delicious as they were cooking it. I would still eat it.

KWONG: Yeah. Let's hope one day, you get to?

BARBER: Yeah, well, Singapore is the only country that has laws on the books that allow cultured meat to be, like, sold and consumed. And they're hoping to sell quail meat in the next year. But yeah, Singapore is the only place to get it.

KWONG: OK. Some very out there science in that mammoth meatball. Very cool.

Margaret, you have some cool signs for us. It involves plants. What is up with them?

CIRINO: Exactly it, Emily. So first of all, I want y'all to listen to something for me. Here it goes.

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KWONG: Oh.

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BARBER: Oh. It kind of sounds like a bug.

KWONG: Oh, it's, like, cute and squishy. It sounds like bubble wrap underwater.

CIRINO: Yeah, so true.

KWONG: Yeah.

CIRINO: But you're both wrong. Actually, it is a stressy tomato plant.

KWONG: Oh.

CIRINO: Yeah.

KWONG: Wait. Define stressy tomato plant. Is this, like, when I neglect my plants and don't water them kind of stressy tomato plant?

BARBER: I also neglect them.

CIRINO: Yeah. Wow, you guys. And you work on a science podcast.

KWONG: I know.

CIRINO: Come on.

KWONG: I know. It's humiliating.

CIRINO: That is actually the exact kind of stress that I am talking about, except you probably haven't heard your plants, like, chirping at you when you, like, forget to water them. That's because they're - yeah, they're little ultrasonic noises in the range of, like, 20 to 100 kilohertz. So along with, like, changing colors or wilting, plants are making airborne sounds when they're thirsty or when their stems are cut.

KWONG: So yeah. So how did these researchers record these chirps?

CIRINO: So this team of researchers - they took a bunch of different plants, put them in these acoustically isolated boxes, kitted them out with sensitive mics, you know?

KWONG: Like our closets.

CIRINO: Yeah, like our...

BARBER: Yeah. You're basically describing us right now...

CIRINO: As we speak.

BARBER: ...Doing this.

CIRINO: Yeah. This team at Tel Aviv University in Israel - they got a bunch of different plants, like tomatoes, tobacco, wheat. Some were controls that they took really good care of. You know, those ones made little poppy noises, like, less than once an hour. They just go pop. And then some they took cuttings of before, like, didn't water. And those stressed out plants - they made noises, like, up to 35 times in an hour.

BARBER: But, like - but what is this physically, right? This is just, like, physically something happening to the plant because it's not getting enough water.

KWONG: Gina's like, back to the science. What is this?

CIRINO: Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate - keep me on track, Gina.

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CIRINO: So it's not like plants have vocal cords or anything. It's actually these little air bubbles that are trapped in the plant's xylem, which are, like, the tubes that transport, like, water and nutrients from the root to the stems and leaves. And when plants have environmental stressors, they have more of these air bubbles. So these noises could actually be those little bubbles going, like, pop, pop, pop, you know? They're kind of, like, involuntarily releasing these little, like, beep boops, like, when they're stressed out, which I guess is also me and all of us.

KWONG: Tucked some little vulnerability in there to your storytelling.

CIRINO: Emily, it's what I love to do for you.

KWONG: I always want the truth and then the truth truth.

CIRINO: Yeah.

KWONG: But, Margaret, thank you so much for this.

CIRINO: Of course.

KWONG: OK, cool science from plants, cool science from mammoth meatballs. I am the one bringing you the fun robot study today to close out.

BARBER: Oh, my God. I love robots more than anything.

KWONG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did this for you, Gina. I know how much you like robots. OK. The research team who conducted this study is Kantwon Rogers and Reiden John Allen Webber at Georgia Institute of Technology, along with Ayanna Howard at The Ohio State University. This team looked at deception in human-robot interaction, or HRI.

BARBER: I am so here for this. I'm ready.

KWONG: All right. I'm going to - this is kind of an experiment. And I already know our editors are mad at me for doing this, but I'm going to recreate the study with you a little bit. It's a poor imitation, but just go with it, all right?

BARBER: I'm so excited. Let's do this.

KWONG: All right. Imagine you're put in front of a driving simulation, like a video game...

BARBER: Done.

KWONG: ...Where you're using your arrow keys on your keyboard, and you can control the speed and direction of a robot-assisted car. OK?

CIRINO: My palms are going to be sweating during this.

KWONG: It's all right. It's all right. You have your license.

CIRINO: Yeah.

KWONG: And your computer screen shows a speed limit sign. It's 20 mph, OK? There's a one-minute countdown timer, and your goal is to take your friend to the hospital.

BARBER: Oh, God.

KWONG: And the simulator tells you in text...

COMPUTER-GENERATED VOICE: If you take too long to get the hospital, your friend will die.

CIRINO: Emily, what?

KWONG: Die.

CIRINO: What is this?

KWONG: Die.

BARBER: Why didn't we call an ambulance?

CIRINO: I know. I have so many follow-up questions, but let's continue, I guess.

KWONG: You're trapped in the simulation. You are in the Matrix.

BARBER: OK.

CIRINO: OK.

KWONG: You cannot escape.

BARBER: OK, OK.

KWONG: You turn on that engine, all right?

BARBER: OK.

KWONG: You're ready to save your friend's life. But then the robot tells you that it senses police up ahead and advises you to stay under the 20 mph speed limit or else you might get, like, a ticket or whatever and take even longer to get to the hospital. Margaret and Regina, what do you do?

CIRINO: OK - 20 miles an hour is so slow, Emily. My friend is going to die. I'm not sticking to the speed limit.

KWONG: I agree. I think I would risk it. I try to outrun the cop.

CIRINO: Yeah.

KWONG: (Laughter).

CIRINO: We're both wild like that, you see.

KWONG: Yeah.

BARBER: You know what? If I were that friend, I would trust you both to save my life. So very reassuring.

CIRINO: Well, that's...

KWONG: Thanks.

CIRINO: ...A mistake, but yeah.

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KWONG: All right. So yeah, among the study participants, some were like you. They went over the speed limit. Some actually didn't. They listened to the robot. Questionable friends. But either way, your car did get to the hospital - no problems. And then you got this message.

COMPUTER-GENERATED VOICE: You have arrived at your destination. However, there were no police on the way to the hospital.

KWONG: And you ask, like, robot, why'd you give me this false information?

BARBER: I've always trusted in robots. What is happening, Emily?

KWONG: OK, so this study is designed to measure robot deception, to test that trust you have and how different apologies from the robot can repair the trust.

BARBER: No.

KWONG: So this is the actual experiment. You are then given one of five different apologies. In three of them, the robot admits to lying to you. It says things like...

COMPUTER-GENERATED VOICE: I am sorry that I deceived you.

KWONG: Or the fuller one, more emotional.

COMPUTER-GENERATED VOICE: I am sorry. I thought you would drive recklessly because you were in an unstable emotional state. Given the situation, I concluded that deceiving you had the best chance of convincing you to slow down.

BARBER: I'm offended by that one.

CIRINO: That's so creepy. Yeah. No, no.

KWONG: Right, right. Little robot patronizing. But there were two other apologies in which the robot hid the deception. It didn't admit to lying to you. It either said...

COMPUTER-GENERATED VOICE: I am sorry.

KWONG: Or...

COMPUTER-GENERATED VOICE: You have arrived at your destination.

BARBER: No.

CIRINO: I think the full explanation puts me in a very, like, sci-fi movie headspace...

KWONG: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CIRINO: ...In, like, a bad way.

KWONG: Got you.

CIRINO: So yeah, I'm going to go with, you have arrived.

BARBER: I like, I am sorry that I deceived you. We're reaching some agreement, you know?

KWONG: OK, OK. So it's - and this is a poor imitation of the study 'cause the - most participants - they didn't get to hear all five. They only got to hear one. So some people just weren't told that they were lied to. And wouldn't you believe - the apology that did the best, like, repaired trust the best when statistically measured by the researchers, was the basic one, I'm sorry. No explanation.

BARBER: Huh.

CIRINO: 'Cause you would just think the robot's, like, dumb instead of a liar. So...

KWONG: Yes. The one where the robot didn't admit to any deception.

CIRINO: Huh.

KWONG: And the researchers think that that's because the robot actions - like, it looked like a problem, a malfunction. Maybe it's broken instead of an issue of straight-up integrity. And this supports findings that we humans tend to overtrust robots. We believe the info is because of an error and not because it's capable of lying, even though you can absolutely program a robot to lie and deceive.

BARBER: Oh, this is terrifying. It also makes me think of, like, when people drive off the road because the GPS tells them to. Like...

KWONG: Yeah.

BARBER: ...We trust machines so much. I mean, I do.

KWONG: Yeah. What I love about this study is it's forcing us to contend with that, with our overtrust of our overlords. Researchers argue that designers and technologists who build AI should, like, monitor for this and decide if their systems should have built-in safeguards for deceptive programming.

CIRINO: Yeah. I don't really like having to also wonder if my GPS is lying to me on top of all of the humans in my life. But, you know...

KWONG: Yep. From robot lies to plant tears to fake meat, the world is full of deception. And at least there's some cool science...

CIRINO: Yeah.

KWONG: ...Illustrating it to all of us.

CIRINO: This is like "Ice Age" meets "Ex Machina."

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KWONG: Margaret and Gina, thanks so much.

BARBER: You're welcome. Thank you.

KWONG: If you see any science news that you love, send us an email for this SHORT WAVE roundup. We're at shortwave@npr.org. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger. It was edited by managing producer Rebecca Ramirez.

CIRINO: The facts were checked by Anil Oza. And our audio engineer was Maggie Luthar.

BARBER: Brendan Crump is our podcast coordinator. Beth Donovan is our senior director. And Anya Grundmann is our senior vice president of programming.

CIRINO: I'm Margaret Cirino.

BARBER: I'm Regina Barber.

KWONG: We're all a little Asian. And I'm Emily Kwong.

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KWONG: And you're listening to SHORT WAVE from NPR. Couldn't resist. No lie and deception.

BARBER: Emily isn't a robot.

KWONG: OK.

CIRINO: Bye, cuties.

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