Playing a religious character without making faith the punchline
ERIC DEGGANS, HOST:
And I'm going to hand things over to NPR's Rachel Martin for another conversation from her series Enlighten Me.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
RACHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: I started watching this show a few weeks ago. It's called "Somebody Somewhere" on HBO. And then I raved about it to anyone who would listen. A lot of things struck me about this show - first and foremost, the fullness of the queer characters, also the authenticity of the dialogue. But even more than those things, the show stood out to me because of the way that it represents religion through this one character named Joel. He's the best friend in this story. The main character is a woman named Sam, who's played by Bridget Everett. Sam has moved back to her hometown in Kansas, and she ends up reconnecting with this guy she went to high school with, Joel. The two of them fill voids in each other's lives in this beautiful way. In one scene, Sam is helping Joel shop around for a new church, even though she herself is not religious in the slightest.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE")
BRIDGET EVERETT: (As Sam) OK. I got my little notebook. I'll write down all the pros and cons. We can just pop in. And if you're not feeling it, we'll just check out the next one. You want to start over here?
JEFF HILLER: (As Joel) Yeah. Let's do Lutheran, Presbyterian, catch Methodist, swing around to Baptist...
EVERETT: (As Sam) OK. Let's just...
HILLER: (As Joel) And then we can go to the next block.
EVERETT: (As Sam) Let's start and build one at a time.
HILLER: (As Joel) OK.
MARTIN: Jeff Hiller plays Joel in the show. I talked to him about his big break - also growing up, gay and Christian in Texas and forgoing life as a pastor for a life of performing.
This is really why I wanted to talk to you because I saw this scene. And I was like, wait, what? I kept waiting for, like, the dig, right? Like, the cutting joke that was going to somehow eviscerate this religious person or this character because that's what we're sort of used to seeing. And it wasn't that at all.
HILLER: No. And, in fact, the only jokes really come at the expense of Sam just having no idea what churches do or...
MARTIN: Right. Right.
HILLER: She points at this beautiful stained glass thing of Jesus holding a lamb, and she's like, who's that guy holding the poodle?
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE")
EVERETT: (As Sam) And that guy holding the tiny poodle.
HILLER: (As Joel) Oh, my God. You've never been to a church, have you?
EVERETT: (As Sam) Don't worry about it.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MARTIN: It's just treated so gently in the show. Like, it's not treated with derision.
HILLER: Yeah.
MARTIN: It's just a part of who he is as a fully realized human being.
HILLER: Exactly. Because I know so many queer folks who are members of faith communities, and in fact, that's where they found their people, their family, their found family. And I know so many churches who - that are basically the only voice of social justice in their communities. That's where you go if you need food. That's where you go if you need help on your rent. You know, I think in pop culture, when you see church, you just think, oh, it's going to smoosh down the gay people.
MARTIN: Right.
HILLER: And that's - it's so much more nuanced than that.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MARTIN: So how would you define your spiritual identity?
HILLER: So I grew up in the church. I was super - I was very obviously gay growing up. I know it's a shock. And I was, I mean, just sort of mercilessly bullied. I mean, I feel like there needs to be a bigger word for it.
MARTIN: Really.
HILLER: So school was just a nightmare. But my family was a safe space, and so was church on Sunday mornings. Even kids who were mean to me in school would be nice to me in Sunday school. And so the church was really like - it was a safe space. I went to a slightly progressive Lutheran church, and...
MARTIN: This is in San Antonio, right?
HILLER: San Antonio, Texas, exactly. And I worked at camps as a camp counselor. And those camps were super progressive, and the school where I studied theology in hopes of becoming a pastor were very progressive as well. They were all about contextual theology and really focusing on grace, on the New Testament idea that God is full of grace and love as opposed to the sort of Old Testament idea of judgmental and, you know, angry God. So I still hold on to that.
Now, I'm not - I went to church for many years, even after coming out, even after leaving Texas. I did a sort of church-affiliated volunteer program after college where I was, like, a full-time volunteer. It was sort of like AmeriCorps but churchy. And so I went to church then, and even after I moved to New York to become an actor, I went to church for about 10 years. And I stopped partly because of geography, partly because my husband is Jewish and partly because I feel like, for me, at this moment in my life, I don't need a church. I just need to, like, volunteer and have a community.
MARTIN: Yeah.
HILLER: And I have that without the sort of Sunday morning portion of it. I never really found one in New York that fit my fancy (laughter).
MARTIN: Right. I want to go back to what it was like for you when you were growing up. You said that church and your family were both safe spaces. When did you come out to your family? What was that like?
HILLER: I came out when I was - to my parents when I was doing that churchy AmeriCorps program. So it was after college 'cause, like, I had come out to some people in college, but I went to Texas Lutheran College. So it wasn't, like...
MARTIN: Right.
HILLER: It wasn't like Berkeley, you know what I mean?
(LAUGHTER)
HILLER: There was no one else that was out. So you would whisper it, and then somebody would be like, I heard that this person is gay, too, you know?
MARTIN: Yeah.
HILLER: So I told them after college 'cause I was afraid that they would - I don't know. I don't know what I was afraid of. Like, it didn't make any sense. My mom had been nothing but kind. And, of course, when I came out, they were like, yeah, we know. I've never told anybody who was like, really?
(LAUGHTER)
HILLER: I am who I am. And so anyhow, it was totally fine.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MARTIN: Did you sing in the church choir?
HILLER: I did.
MARTIN: So did I.
HILLER: And the school choir.
MARTIN: Yes.
HILLER: Did you?
MARTIN: Yes, totally.
HILLER: The church choir?
MARTIN: I was totally in the church choir. I had a solo when I was 7. I, like - I was a big star, Jeff. I was a big star in the church choir.
HILLER: Do you remember the solo? Like, what the song was?
MARTIN: Yeah. We have to cut all this out. Yes. It was by Amy Grant. Yes, by Amy Grant.
HILLER: "Thy Word"?
MARTIN: Oh, my God. I love "Thy Word." (Singing) Thy...
RACHEL MARTIN AND JEFF HILLER: (Singing) Word is a lamp unto my feet.
MARTIN: (Singing) And a light...
Anyway, that's going out. But enough about me. But I am interested, though. You - to the point that you - I mean, you were going to be a pastor. You...
HILLER: Yeah.
MARTIN: This was - you felt - to use the terminology, you really felt called to that?
HILLER: Oh, my gosh. We use that terminology like crazy. We love talking about being called. It's so funny. I think about that now, and it's like - it's such a word that you use to sort of hide ambition, you know what I mean?
MARTIN: Totally. Right, right, right, right, right. It's not me. I mean, I can just do anything. I was called. What am I supposed to do?
HILLER: Exactly.
MARTIN: Right.
HILLER: You know, I'm wrestling with it. I'm wrestling with the call.
MARTIN: Are you?
HILLER: Are you? Yes. I did feel called, though. Like, that's the other thing is that I was being sincere. I wasn't just using language. I really felt called. But I mean, in retrospect, it's like, I love to perform, and I love to entertain. And that was something, you know, you knew you had at least one hour every week - admittedly not the not the best hour, Sunday at 10 a.m., but still...
MARTIN: There was an audience. They showed up.
HILLER: Built-in audience.
MARTIN: Right.
HILLER: Some - you know, if it's a big enough church, you can get two shows, an 8:00 and a 10:30. But I really - I loved doing a sermon and things like that. And I think if I hadn't come out or, you know, if I weren't gay, I would be a pastor right now. But...
MARTIN: Really?
HILLER: ...At the time, in the ELCA, which is my - the Lutheran synod that I was a part of - they said you could be gay, but you couldn't have a partner. You had to be celibate. And I found that very rude.
MARTIN: Right. It's a sin like everyone else's sin, and so you can't live in your sin.
HILLER: Exactly. And that's - that has since changed. But that was what the rule was when I was graduating from college and contemplating going to seminary. And so I just didn't - that's when I did all the social work-y stuff. And then I was, like, a terrible social worker. It's - you need a lot of, like, conflict. You can't be afraid of conflict to be a social worker, and I am. So - and also, I just really, really, really wanted to perform. And so...
MARTIN: Did you grieve that at all, that you couldn't do this thing that you had thought that you were going to do for a long time?
HILLER: That's so interesting. I don't think grieve is the right word. I think I had some shame about it and some embarrassment about not - I mean, you know, even on the most basic level. Like, I was working with homeless youth, and I left the homeless youth to go, like, do improv comedy. I mean, it's not - it's hard to spin (laughter) as a positive. I do remember one pastor telling me, like - she was like, well, you're bringing joy to the world. And I was like, I don't know. It's a lot of fart jokes.
(LAUGHTER)
HILLER: And yet here we are.
MARTIN: And here we are.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MARTIN: You spent many years teaching people to do this craft, right? You were teaching acting and comedy...
HILLER: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...To a whole bunch of people who are pretty famous at this point?
HILLER: Yeah. Yes. Yes. And I - it ate me up. I was very jealous of them. But yes - Abbi Jacobson, Ilana Glazer, Kate McKinnon, Ellie Kemper, D'Arcy Carden, all of these people. It didn't matter that they were incredibly talented, you know, gorgeous and smart and fun and kind, warm people. But, yeah, I did. I got really jealous of them.
MARTIN: What was the internal dialogue in your head besides the - just the knee-jerk emotional reaction of being a little envious? What would pop up in the story that you were telling yourself?
HILLER: Well, the main story was, you know, too ugly, too gay, too large. I'm very large. I'm 6-foot-5 and, you know...
MARTIN: It's big for TV.
HILLER: I'm over 200. Yeah, it's big for TV. You know, you look like...
MARTIN: They're little people.
HILLER: ...Lurch standing there next to all the movie stars.
MARTIN: They're too tiny. It's not you. They're all too small.
HILLER: (Laughter) That's right. That's right. But, of course, like, it makes you just feel, like, worthless. Like, well, you know, you start to believe that. And you also start to think, like, what am I doing wrong? Like, I see these people, and I feel like I'm also talented. Why am I not getting roles? And basically, the answer is it's not fair.
MARTIN: Right.
HILLER: Entertainment's not fair. Life is not fair. That's just not how it works, which is hard when you grew up, you know, believing, like, God will make it all right.
MARTIN: Right.
HILLER: You know, like, there's a reason for this. This person died, but it's for the best, you know what I mean?
MARTIN: Yeah.
HILLER: It's all a part of the plan. And you're like, what's the plan? What is the plan here?
MARTIN: Yeah. What is the plan? I don't like this plan. I want a new one.
HILLER: Oh, my God, Rachel. That is so true. I really did want another one - plan.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MARTIN: So is it fair to say that this role on "Somebody Somewhere" is your big break?
HILLER: Oh, my God. Absolutely.
MARTIN: Yeah.
HILLER: Completely. I mean, undoubtedly.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: What other words can we say?
HILLER: I mean, like, before this, I was playing waiters. You know, this is huge to actually have an interior life and I mean, just to have a name is a big deal for my career.
MARTIN: Oh, like, attached to your role? Like, you - that you have an identity?
HILLER: Yes. As opposed to, like, waiter or, like, maitre d'. That was...
MARTIN: That was fancy.
HILLER: That was the scary thing. I had aged out of waiter into maitre d'.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: I mean, what a trip, though, to be at this for so long and then to - what? You actually got a phone call from Bridget Everett, right?
HILLER: Yeah. Yeah. She asked me - well, it was an email. But she asked me to audition, and she said, would you consider auditioning for my show? And I was like, I will audition for, you know, an internet commercial. Yes, I'll audition for your HBO show.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE")
HILLER: (As Joel) Did you ever bless an animal?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) No. Have you?
HILLER: (As Joel) Yeah. I did a goat once.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) You blessed a goat? That's pretty cool.
HILLER: I read this role and I was like, I'm a theology major. This guy is - you know, he goes to church. He's - he sings. He plays the piano. He's, you know, warm and kind, and I know how to play this. I kind of felt like, oh, I think they wrote this role for me. But they didn't. They were like, no, we didn't. We didn't know who you were.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE")
EVERETT: (As Sam) Joel, is that a dream board?
HILLER: (As Joel) No.
EVERETT: (As Sam) Oh.
HILLER: (As Joel) It's a vision board.
EVERETT: (As Sam) OK. You really spent some time on this. (As Joel) Not... (As Character) You go to Paris. You got an Eiffel Tower there, and...
HILLER: (As Joel) Well, just Europe. I want to go to Europe.
EVERETT: (As Sam) OK. Oh, and then, of course, everybody's hands in a heart.
HILLER: (As Joel) Community.
EVERETT: (As Sam) Great.
MARTIN: Joel does vision boards, right? He cuts things out of magazines and puts them on his vision board to try to manifest them in real life.
HILLER: Yes.
MARTIN: If you were a person who was inclined towards vision boards, is there anything left to put up there?
HILLER: Well, first of all, I am in vision boards (laughter).
MARTIN: Yes, I love it. I knew it.
HILLER: I always just thought it was a really nice way of, like, goal planning. And then when I got that script, I was like, oh, they're kind of, like, pretending like it's cheesy.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: Like, I'm sorry, was this - is this dorky?
HILLER: I know. And even Joel is, like, self-aware that it's cheesy. I was like, oh, I thought this was just good. I used to be really embarrassed that I was a very ambitious person, but I just sort of own it now, and I'd love to continue acting. I'm a writer. I'd love to create something for me to act in 'cause, you know, I'm hard to cast (laughter). And I'd love to just continue having adventures, you know?
MARTIN: Yeah. Jeff Hiller, it has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Jeff stars in the show "Somebody Somewhere" on HBO along with Bridget Everett. Thank you so much for talking with me.
HILLER: Thank you. This was fun.
DEGGANS: You can hear more conversations from Rachel Martin's Enlighten Me series right here, same time next week.
Copyright © 2023 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.