< Michelle Buteau's winsome 'Survival of the Thickest' is a natural selection

AISHA HARRIS, HOST:

A warning - this episode contains explicit language.

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HARRIS: The delightful comedy series "Survival Of The Thickest" is about an up-and-coming stylist whose professional and personal ambitions go sideways when she finds herself newly single. With the help of her best friend, she recalibrates her life and steps outside her comfort zone, to varying results. It stars the charming comedian Michelle Buteau. She also co-created the series, and her book of personal essays serves as the inspiration. I'm Aisha Harris. And today we're talking about the Netflix series "Survival Of The Thickest" on POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR.

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HARRIS: Joining me today is podcast producer and film and culture critic Cate Young. Welcome back, Cate.

CATE YOUNG: Hi. Happy to be here.

HARRIS: Also with us is NPR contributor Cyrena Touros. Hey, Cyrena. Welcome back to you, too.

CYRENA TOUROS, BYLINE: Hey, Aisha.

HARRIS: And rounding out the panel is the co-host of the podcast "Fanti," journalist Tre'vell Anderson. It's great to see you, Tre'vell.

TRE’VELL ANDERSON: Hello.

(LAUGHTER)

HARRIS: So "Survival Of The Thickest" stars Michelle Buteau as Mavis Beaumont, an assistant stylist on the cusp of her big break. Her longtime boyfriend Jacque, played by Taylor Sele, is an established fashion photographer helping her make the right connections in the industry. He's also cheating on Mavis, as she discovers to her horror. And now in her late 30s, she has to start all over - find a new place to live and a new way to rise within the ranks of her career. Now, for emotional support and sound advice, Mavis leans on her best friends Marley and Khalil, played by Tasha Smith and Tone Bell, and she manages to land a gig styling Natasha Karina, an older and severely prickly ex-supermodel played by Garcelle Beauvais.

Michelle Buteau created the series alongside Danielle Sanchez Witzel, who previously produced shows like "New Girl" and "My Name Is Earl." And "Survival Of The Thickest" is streaming on Netflix now. So we all really, really dug this show. Tre'vell, why don't you kick us off?

ANDERSON: Yeah. You know, I've always been one of those girls who, like, cares a little bit less about the relationship stuff. And I'm like, how was work?

(LAUGHTER)

ANDERSON: You know, like, how are you navigating the corporate ladder? You know?

HARRIS: Yeah.

ANDERSON: That side of so many of these characters aren't often - it's just not often explored in any sort of depth because, you know, we want - I guess we want to focus on the trials and tribulations of love, I suppose.

HARRIS: Yeah.

ANDERSON: But I've just always found the career stuff more interesting. So I love that we get a chance to, like, see that. Like, when you're starting something kind of new. You've got this potential connection that you could exploit. But, like, you don't really want to because it makes it kind of, you know, messy and foolish. And I love that, you know, the show also allows - my favorite part about the show, OK, is, you know, we've got some Black famous people.

YOUNG: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

ANDERSON: Especially Tasha Smith, right?

YOUNG: Yeah, yeah.

ANDERSON: Garcelle Beauvais - before she was a real housewife of Beverly Hills, OK, we knew her as Fancy on "The Jamie Foxx Show."

HARRIS: Jamie Foxx - yes, yes.

ANDERSON: So I love that as well.

HARRIS: Yeah. Yeah. I actually want to play one of my favorite moments (laughter) from the show because you mentioned Garcelle Beauvais, and I've never watched the "Real Housewives" franchise, so she - that's not how I know her. But, like, yes...

ANDERSON: Don't. Don't worry about it.

HARRIS: I know, I know.

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HARRIS: But on "The Jamie Foxx Show," you know, she was really, really fantastic. And I think her character to me is just so interesting because - and I would even love to see, if there were a second season, even more of her and her journey because she was a famous supermodel in the '90s. And when we think of '90s supermodels, we think rail-thin, the Naomi Campbell, Kate Moss type. And now she's older, and she - her body is no longer what it used to be. And so I think the way the show really kind of plays with her own insecurities of being older and also trying to move in and understand her body as it is now and love her body as it is now is really interesting. But the part that I want to play involves her character and Mavis talking about a dog wedding. It's great.

ANDERSON: (Laughter).

HARRIS: And I just want to play this part because it's just this great example of how the banter on this show often kind of pingpongs in a way that feels fun. And Michelle Buteau's face also, which you can't see, but, like, just imagine you're seeing it when you hear this clip.

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GARCELLE BEAUVAIS: (As Natasha Karina) Kristen Karina.

MICHELLE BUTEAU: (As Mavis Beaumont) Kristen, your dog - her dog - your dog, Kristen - hi - is getting married. She's getting married. To whom?

BEAUVAIS: (As Natasha Karina) Tootie Delaine (ph).

BUTEAU: (As Mavis Beaumont) OK. Tootie Delaine - and Tootie Delaine is also a dog?

(LAUGHTER)

HARRIS: I just love the way, like, you see Mavis processing this and just speaking it aloud and saying it multiple ways. I just think that's kind of the beauty in many ways of Michelle Buteau and how she carries it and also how, you know, Garcelle Beauvais really commits to this role, and she's completely serious about this dog and thinks that, you know, Mavis should also be excited about it. I don't know. It's just one of those things I think was really fun.

ANDERSON: Yeah, it feels very real in that way. Like, I feel like I would have that reaction to somebody telling me that they dog's about to go get married, you know? And so it just feels like, oh, this is my homegirl who - somebody I know in a very real way. And I think that, like, makes it an even more enjoyable experience.

TOUROS: Yeah, I think the line reading is kind of so fantastic and, like, their chemistry is, like, popping off the screen. And one of my favorite kind of subplots is the way that Marley, who is, like, the best friend, this, like, high-powered - is she, like, a lawyer? She's kind of, like, somebody corporate.

YOUNG: Executive.

TOUROS: Lots of - yes.

HARRIS: Yeah, I couldn't tell what she was. She - but she's giving, you know, CEO.

TOUROS: She's wearing suits. I love it.

HARRIS: Yeah. Yeah.

TOUROS: And her other childhood best friend, Khalil, who is more of, like, the artsy type, are initially at odds and slowly kind of, like, making their way towards each other and developing their own dynamic. And I just felt like they played that beautifully. And I just love the way the dialogue just feels so lived in and feels so fresh and so present. And, like, it's jumping off the screen.

ANDERSON: Can I tell y'all my favorite line real quick?

YOUNG: Yeah.

HARRIS: Yes.

TOUROS: Yes.

ANDERSON: When they said, what the brown titty TED Talk is going on...

(LAUGHTER)

ANDERSON: ...I loved it. I was like, yes, absolutely.

HARRIS: That's her catchphrase, I feel like. I love it.

YOUNG: There's a bit, I think, in one of the early scenes where she says something like, oh, it's the drumstick special, like...

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TAYLOR SELE: (As Jacque) And the camera loves you.

BUTEAU: (As Mavis Beaumont) Is that right? Well, it must be my drumstick emoji physique. It's meaty on top, nubby on the bottom, very delicious.

SELE: (As Jacque) That's what it is. You must be one...

YOUNG: I thought that was so funny because it's the kind of, like, very specific, you know, metaphor/imagery that would never occur to me. And it was really funny. And I think there's a lot of that in the show where it's extremely specific. It's really, really funny, and it takes you in a direction where you understand specifically who this character is because a lot of it is that she's - like, she's really smart. She's really quick. She's really clever. She's always ready with a cute comment. And that's something that's hard to do. So I really appreciate that. And I thought it was really, really cute. And it was one of the things that immediately kind of endeared her to me.

HARRIS: Yeah. I'm curious what you all think about - you know, we've mentioned a few lines, and the drumstick line is also a great visual. How does the way that the show talks about or confronts fatphobia and those sorts of things land for you? - because I think it could have been very easy for this show to lean on Mavis feeling insecure about her body, but, like, she doesn't. And I think kind of the...

YOUNG: Yeah.

HARRIS: ...Genius of this is the fact that her job is to be a stylist. And one of the things that she wants to do is help other people who might feel more insecure about these things feel better about themselves. Does that land for you or feel true or interesting at all?

YOUNG: One hundred percent. I think one of the things that really stuck out to me is precisely that, you know, I don't think there is any mention at any point in the series that she is self-conscious about her body or that she has a problem with it or any way or that she ever did have a problem with it, to be honest. And what I like about how it treats this is that instead of leaning on the easy, like, body-positive, like, we all want to love ourselves thing, she's very specifically trying to help her clients feel at home in their bodies. And it's much more about feeling OK about what they look like and feeling OK about what their bodies feel like.

And I thought that was really, really interesting because I think with the body-positive movement we've had over the last, you know, decade or so, it's gotten really easy to rely on, you know, packed catchphrases or whatever about loving yourself. And you can't love yourself into being part of the dominant body aesthetic. Like, it's not about how you feel about it. It's about the wider world and how it treats fat people. And I think this really captures that really, really well. And I think that by having Mavis not have those issues with her body, you end up dispensing with all of that back-and-forth. And we get to focus on what her, like, actual philosophy is in terms of dressing her clients and making them feel good.

ANDERSON: It reminds me of Mo'Nique's movie "Phat Girlz," if anyone has ever seen that, right?

YOUNG: Of course.

ANDERSON: You know? OK. Great. Love - I'm among family. Love that for me.

YOUNG: Yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

ANDERSON: But it has a lot of those, like, similar vibes where it's like, you know, it's a fat, Black woman who loves who she is. The only people who really kind of have an issue with her body are - like, it's the outside world, right?

HARRIS: Right.

ANDERSON: Like, there's a joke at the top of the show in which she's like, you know, he's cheating on me with, like, a skinnier version of me. It's a light-skinned girl with curly hair or whatever. But I think it has that similar through line, and it allows us as an audience to see a fat person on TV. And also - right? - there are so many other body types as well that are being kind of uplifted and centered, from fatter bodies to...

HARRIS: Yeah.

ANDERSON: ...You know, trans bodies and queer bodies, etc. Yeah.

HARRIS: Yeah.

TOUROS: I love also that this is a sex-positive show and that, like...

YOUNG: One hundred percent.

TOUROS: ...The camera didn't shy away from, like, showing Michelle Buteau, you know, getting groped, getting loved on, like, showing her, like, under the sheets, showing her in, like, undressed in lingerie. Like, I loved that they didn't have her in makeup for a lot of the scenes when she was at home. I thought that was such a great detail.

HARRIS: Her skin - my goodness.

YOUNG: Incredible.

HARRIS: Like, whatever the regimen is...

YOUNG: She mentions the freckles at one point, too. And I'm like...

HARRIS: Yes.

YOUNG: ...Yes, 100%.

HARRIS: Yes.

TOUROS: I also - I loved how I saw that Netflix budget went towards the costuming and the wardrobe. And I feel like, you know, her message of confidence is, like, embedded in the clothing, too. I feel like the wardrobe was so colorful, so beautiful. It didn't feel like she was trying to style people to, like, settle into what was available on, like, the market. She was really making people, like, beautiful and fun. And I feel like the clothing was so vibrant. And I feel like it really just kind of, like, tied it all together for me.

HARRIS: Yeah.

YOUNG: Yeah.

HARRIS: Nicole Byer pops up at one point, which I love seeing.

ANDERSON: Yes (laughter).

YOUNG: Fat lady icon.

HARRIS: Her and Michelle Buteau have perfect, perfect chemistry. And at one point, I think she wants, like, sexy lingerie or whatever. And I was looking at the lingerie. And I was like, that's cute.

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BUTEAU: (As Mavis Beaumont) We're always getting put in the Christmas red or, like, a clinical beige. But this?

NICOLE BYER: (As herself) Beige? Girl, I don't know her. I am a walking, talking bag of Skittles, and you know I had to put that in my line.

BUTEAU: (As Mavis Beaumont) I love that.

HARRIS: Yeah, it's such a fun show to look at and to just take in. And one other thing I want to note is that I was very happy to see that - you know, Cyrena, you mentioned earlier the budding friendship between Khalil and Marley. But it doesn't ever tilt into, like, will they or won't they? Like, there's no sort of triangle happening...

YOUNG: Yeah.

HARRIS: ...Within this new friend group. I was like, good. You all have your own things happening.

YOUNG: And I thought there would be, to be honest.

HARRIS: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's such a trope, right? Like...

YOUNG: Yeah.

HARRIS: That is often how things work out.

(LAUGHTER)

HARRIS: And I'm glad that it kind of avoids that.

YOUNG: Yeah.

HARRIS: And each character kind of has their own journey while still just managing to be friends without all the sex stuff (laughter).

ANDERSON: Because that's life.

(LAUGHTER)

HARRIS: Yes. Yes. We can be friends and not have the sex stuff there (laughter).

YOUNG: Yeah. And we were talking earlier about the balance between, you know, the work stuff and the love stuff. And I think one of the, like, overall things about the series that really impressed me is simply that we got to have a really beautiful, romantic story for a fat girl on TV. Like, I think that she manages to become not quite the usual romcom heroine in the sense that we've evolved from that a little bit. But, you know, she gets broken up with - on that same night, like, she's finding someone new. She does not have any problems finding people to date. It's never presented as though she would ever have a problem finding someone to date. And I really appreciated that because we got to see her have all of these really charming, lovely moments. I mean, I swooned multiple times...

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YOUNG: ...In the scenes with Luca. I mean, it's just - they were adorable together, and they had great chemistry. And I love that she was able to, fairly early on, find someone who was interested in her and interested in investing in her. And I feel like that's just not a story that you tend to get for Black women, especially fat Black women.

HARRIS: And I think that is partially based on her own...

ANDERSON: Yeah.

HARRIS: ...Michelle Buteau's own life. Her husband was from another country. And he was, like, visiting New York City. And so it was similar to the Luca character, who's played by Marouane Zotti. It's got a similar vibe, from my understanding, of how she met her husband in real life, which I think is really - it's kind of cool. It's cute.

ANDERSON: Absolutely.

HARRIS: And it shows, yes, like, she has found happiness in her own life. And I think that helps to be able to create something like this. Even though Mavis is clearly going through a lot of her own things, she understands that there can be and should be a happy ending for people who look like her.

TOUROS: Can we talk about the setting? I feel like my favorite New York trope is friends who live, like, 90 minutes away from each other on the train meeting up all the time.

(LAUGHTER)

HARRIS: Seriously.

TOUROS: I think she's in Crown Heights.

HARRIS: Yeah.

TOUROS: And it's, like, very obvious that Khalil is in Harlem.

HARRIS: Yes (laughter).

TOUROS: And I was like, oh, my God, there's no way that Khalil can afford a taxi uptown after, like, you know, spending a night out at a drag club. It's so funny to me.

(LAUGHTER)

HARRIS: He's an artist. Like, he teaches art classes. He's not ruling in dough.

(LAUGHTER)

YOUNG: He's not quite balling.

HARRIS: Yeah.

YOUNG: Speaking of tropes, actually, I was really entertained by her roommate and the kind of overfamiliar white woman that we tend to see a lot.

HARRIS: Yeah, that dynamic between the roommate, Jade, played by Liza Treyger, and Mavis is really, really funny and fascinating.

YOUNG: I - personally, there's a lot of it that I was like, girl, please, try again. But I also really appreciated that towards the end of the series, they give her a moment where she's allowed to be right. She comes in, and Mavis finds one of her friends, like, sleeping in her bed, which is obviously quite upsetting and would freak me out, too.

HARRIS: Yeah.

YOUNG: But when she comes out to confront her roommate, she basically says, like, where else is he supposed to go? Your things are everywhere. You've taken over all of the public spaces. And you're very adamant that I not touch or move anything. And I started off that scene on Mavis' side. And by the time it ended, I was like, you know what? That is on you. That's a very inconsiderate thing to do. You moved in with her, and you've taken over her space. And it isn't fair. And she's allowed to want that kind of boundary. You're very insistent about your own boundaries, but you're not respecting hers.

ANDERSON: Even as she has cornrows, you know, and...

TOUROS: Oh, my God.

(LAUGHTER)

TOUROS: Rubbing olive oil all over herself.

HARRIS: Oh, my goodness.

TOUROS: I love the way that Mavis was allowed to mess up and be wrong and that we weren't always supposed to take her side, and that we were just kind of, like, watching her journey, like, evolving, finding her footing, getting back on her feet. I loved that.

HARRIS: Well, it sounds like we all would highly recommend this show...

YOUNG: Absolutely.

ANDERSON: Absolutely.

HARRIS: ...If you haven't checked it out already. And if you have, you need to let us know what you think about "Survival Of The Thickest." Find us at facebook.com/pchh. That brings us to the end of our show. Thank you so much to Cate Young, Cyrena Touros and Tre'vell Anderson for being here. This was fun. I enjoyed it.

YOUNG: Absolutely.

ANDERSON: Thank you, Aisha.

TOUROS: Thank you, guys.

HARRIS: This episode was produced by Rommel Wood and edited by Jessica Reedy. Research was performed by Susie Cummings and Christopher Intagliata. And Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris, and we'll see you all tomorrow.

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