BRITTANY LUSE, HOST:
Ooh. Today, I'm headed to meet Liam, our producer, to have my very first pumpkin spice latte. I've never had one in my life.
You're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Brittany Luse. And this particular day wasn't just a momentous occasion for me, but for the pumpkin spice latte, too. The drink is celebrating its 20th birthday this year, and we weren't the only ones making the pilgrimage on its drop day. The PSL has plenty of diehard fans.
So how long have you been planning on coming to Starbucks to hit the pumpkin spice drop?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: We put this on our calendars, like, a week ago.
LUSE: OK. So I'm wondering, how did y'all know about this a week ago? Because Liam and I just found out yesterday.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: It was on the DL on Instagram. Like, people were mentioning it in the comments.
LUSE: It's incredibly popular. And while Starbucks isn't the only pumpkin spice game in town, food trend forecaster and founder of Culinary Tides, Suzy Badaracco, says Starbucks did bring it on the scene in 2003.
SUZY BADARACCO: I don't know that they realize the phenomenon they were about to create.
LUSE: Since the launch, Starbucks has sold hundreds of millions of pumpkin spice lattes, and it's still a strong moneymaker. Last year's PSL drop kicked off the biggest sales week in the company's history. I'll be honest, I felt conflicted about going into Starbucks to buy a PSL for this. For one, I think almost all coffee tastes like burnt beans. For two, the corporation's long dealt with accusations of mistreatment from its workers. But Suzy says the pumpkin spice phenomenon is so big it's not something most consumers might think about.
BADARACCO: People are disassociating pumpkin pie spice lattes with the brand. They're like, but I want my pumpkin spice latte. They're kind of going to overlook Starbucks to be able to get the pumpkin pie spice latte.
LUSE: It's almost like it empowers the consumer to kind of look the other way or, like, whatever obstacle might keep them out of a Starbucks the rest of the year, in that season, it gets them to, like, push past.
BADARACCO: Yes.
LUSE: My producer, Liam, who came with me to get the PSL, says this is something he actually thinks about every year.
LIAM MCBAIN, BYLINE: OK. I definitely have shame about this, but I do drink one single PSL every year. I don't think I step into a Starbucks otherwise. But this trend has a hold on me. I can't explain it.
LUSE: And me? I like pumpkin spice in other things, but I'd never had a PSL until now.
MCBAIN: All right. Are we ready?
LUSE: I'm ready.
MCBAIN: Cheers. Cheers.
LUSE: Oh, OK. I totally get it.
MCBAIN: OK.
LUSE: It tastes sweet. Like, it's, like, not really so much a pumpkin-y flavor as, like, a warm spice flavor. Does that make sense?
MCBAIN: Listen, this hits on, like, a cold fall day when you're about to go to, like...
LUSE: Oh, I bet.
MCBAIN: ...A park with a friend.
LUSE: Yes. I was just going to say. I was like, if you went on, like, a little "Harry Met Sally" walk...
MCBAIN: Yeah.
LUSE: ...A little sweater.
MCBAIN: Yeah. And you got one of these.
LUSE: Or you went to, like, a...
MCBAIN: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Yoga or Pilates class. And then you're, like, with your friend after, having a little sip. Oh, yeah.
But regardless of what I think, this drink and this flavor have a unique staying power in our culture and, also, a unique reputation - for being associated with the season, yes, but also basicness or whiteness or femininity. And while that may not be a draw for me, for others, it's maybe part of the appeal.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Part of PSL love is to just, like, embrace the basicness, so...
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: Deep down inside, I am a basic girl, you know?
(LAUGHTER)
LUSE: So I sat down with Suzy to find out why pumpkin spice is so long-lasting and how food trends become cultural shorthand.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
LUSE: Suzy, welcome to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE.
BADARACCO: Thank you so much for having me.
LUSE: How long have you been tracking food trends?
BADARACCO: Twenty-two years.
LUSE: Twenty-two years. OK, so you've seen the full arc - the full pumpkin spice arc.
BADARACCO: Yeah, absolutely.
LUSE: My producer kept your background a secret for me because he wanted it to be a surprise. But he tells me it's really interesting.
BADARACCO: My background is military intelligence and chaos theory. Before I got into food, I was a criminalist.
LUSE: What?
BADARACCO: Yeah. So I did crime scenes, serial killers. So when I stopped stepping over dead bodies, I naturally went to culinary school. So I am a certified chef.
LUSE: I'm still stuck at the serial-killer-crime-scene-to-culinary-school pipeline. But maybe this is just a well-trod path that I don't have awareness of.
BADARACCO: They're all patterns. It's all the same, so that's why I say, instead of tracking serial killers, now I track cereal bars.
LUSE: (Laughter) OK. So I want to back up a little bit and kind of give the listener a clearer idea of how pumpkin spice can be embodied. Like, if pumpkin spice was a person and had a personality, what would it be?
BADARACCO: Oh, that's easy. So let's say you had a party and you invited pumpkin pie spice to your party as a guest. She would bring you a lovely bottle of wine. She would make sure all - you know, everybody's having a good time. She would check on the playlist, and she'd probably stay afterwards and help you clean up.
LUSE: Sounds like a good bestie.
BADARACCO: Exactly. There's nothing offensive about her. Cinnamon, ginger, nutmeg, cloves - there's no single spice in her blend that's polarizing, right? She doesn't have mustard. She doesn't have licorice. Every single piece of her blend, there's a great affinity towards all of them.
LUSE: When did you get the inkling that pumpkin spice lattes were starting to become really popular?
BADARACCO: Pumpkin pie spice, in general, has been around for decades and decades and decades. So what Starbucks did in 2003 was it championed jumping track from pie or dessert to beverage. But things have helped it keep going, not just Starbucks. So when we hit the recession of 2008, let's say, that renewed it again because it got tied to nostalgia. It got tied to recessionary looking back, you know, wanting to feel good, getting through a recession.
LUSE: You know, in so many ways you described, there's long been an organic interest in pumpkin spice, or initially, there was an organic interest in pumpkin spice as a flavor. But in what ways did Starbucks help to manufacture the trend of pumpkin spice?
BADARACCO: They led with nostalgia - people having a good time, comforting quiet moments with your coffee. It was a psychological reward. That's what they positioned it as. This is a reward for you. You know, it's something special just for you and the season.
LUSE: This sounds, like, more narrative-forward.
BADARACCO: Exactly. They led with the season. They led with, you know, ties to the holiday. They didn't overtly champion pumpkin pie spice itself. They'd tap into your childhood and your good memories. So that's how they did it.
LUSE: Coming up, Suzy, on why food trends garner so much meaning. Stick around.
Is there any danger for things or food items to become too trendy? Like, do they reach a saturation point where people are like, oh, I'm sick of this?
BADARACCO: Not the way this one's grown up. There are some trends that are called - we call them - it's a media darling. Like, it's all over the media. Like, remember cronuts...
LUSE: Yes.
BADARACCO: ...Croissants and donuts from years ago?
LUSE: Yes. I had one.
BADARACCO: All of American may have heard of it, right? But you don't actually eat it or buy it. You have no intention to go to New York City and stand in line of 200 people and get a cronut. That's never going to happen, and you have no interest in doing it. So pumpkin pie spice is not like that. She's a media darling, and she walks the walk. She actually has gone into everything, and everybody accepts her. So in her life cycle, her little lifestyle, how she's led her life since 2003 through the 2000-et cetera, she's constantly reinvented herself. So you can't kill her 'cause you can't catch her.
LUSE: Hold on. You're blowing my mind right now. If you can't kill her, you can't catch her. Like, I'm trying to get clear on this. What do you mean when you say that?
BADARACCO: If she was stagnant and just stayed in coffee and never moved anywhere else, we'd be over this in a year. That's why she's been able to move into yogurt, and now she's in smoothies. And then she'll go to ice cream, and then she'll be savory. Many states now have - cannabis is legal, right? Well, where is pumpkin pie spice going now? Cannabis, gummy - right? - brownies, edibles. So little pumpkin pie spice just moves right in. I'm kind of jealous of her, actually.
LUSE: Oh, my gosh.
BADARACCO: So she shows up with a different party dress. Even in Starbucks, they have little spin-offs every year on what they're doing with the pumpkin pie spice, right? They might put it into a cold brew, right? They might put it into extra foam. So her party dress changes every year, but you still recognize her. So she reinvents herself sort of like Madonna.
LUSE: But she's maybe not quite so edgy.
BADARACCO: Yeah. She's still very approachable. That's her shtick.
LUSE: I'd say she's less Madonna, perhaps, and more Taylor Swift.
BADARACCO: Yeah. There you go. Yes.
LUSE: That's so interesting, especially that you personified so many of these foods. But obviously, we're having a conversation from, like, the average American palate, right?
BADARACCO: Yeah.
LUSE: Our standard American diet is kind of like a product of, like, our marketing and what actually feasibly grows in the United States very readily. It makes sense that, like, a spice blend based around the use of pumpkin, which plays nicely with...
BADARACCO: Yes.
LUSE: ...Corn and tomatoes and beans and rice - it makes a lot of sense then that that spice blend would also kind of fold easily into other American dishes and other American cuisine, as opposed to, say, an ingredient like quinoa, which is...
BADARACCO: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Not exactly, like, the same kind of agricultural ingredient fit.
BADARACCO: Yeah, exactly. And also, so trends - they can have allies with other trends. Pumpkin pie spice - it ties to historical and regional flavor trends. It marries well with heritage meat trends like bison, rabbit, duck. It ties to the trend of heirloom vegetables, like you just mentioned. It ties to the trend of vegetables that moved into the bar and cocktail scene. Now she can move into the bar and cocktail scene. She ties, obviously, to the whole dessert category, not just pie, but quick breads, et cetera. So she has many, many, many allies. She has lots and lots of friends on the playground that she can flip between.
LUSE: You've mentioned that for many people, pumpkin spice evokes nostalgia. And there's memories, experiences and feelings associated with it. Pumpkin spice lattes aren't really just pumpkin spice lattes. They're associated with fall, with femininity, with whiteness, even. You know, obviously people called them basic, you know, back when people were still calling things basic. Like, pumpkin spice was, like, the most basic thing that you could, you know, drink or whatever. But I'm wondering, like, how do food trends gather those kinds of signifiers? Like, how do they become shorthand?
BADARACCO: One, she kind of did it to herself, but Starbucks certainly didn't help the situation. Who is going to Starbucks? Rich white people. That's part of it. Also, if you think of pumpkin pie spice, it's an American holiday from hundreds of years ago. It's not an African American-centered holiday. It's not a Mexican American-centered holiday. Do you know what I mean? It's the pilgrims, who are white.
LUSE: Also, even within my family - which, we always celebrated Thanksgiving - we never ate pumpkin pie. I've only ever eaten pumpkin pie outside of my home. I grew up eating sweet potato pie.
BADARACCO: Yes.
LUSE: So, yeah - so that idea of nostalgia and connecting to history further associates it with whiteness.
BADARACCO: And you mentioned femininity. And who makes the pumpkin pie? The mom...
LUSE: Ah.
BADARACCO: ...The grandmother. It's the female of the house, traditionally, historically, that makes that pie on that holiday. That's who we picture in the kitchen historically. So nostalgia is not comfort. Nostalgia ties something to a time and place in history, and nostalgia evokes an emotion and a memory. So nostalgia's much more complex than comfort. So emotionally, that's why we connect it, because of the history of it, with female.
LUSE: Thinking about food trends, I imagine that there are some people out there that think that they're pretty silly. Why do you think food trends matter? Like, what do they mean to us culturally?
BADARACCO: A flavor trend or a food trend or a cuisine trend - it is calming, and you can watch it unfold, and you can read about it, and you know you can go to a restaurant and partake. You could go to the grocery store and partake. You can go on TikTok or whatever and find it there. And so in a world that upends always, a trend is something kind of calming, that you can refocus even for a moment. It's a little bit of a distraction. It's one way I can kind of control one thing in my life, by partaking or criticizing it, right? There's also control in hating a trend and criticizing it.
LUSE: It sounds like, in a way, like, a food trend can be an anchor in a certain way. If you like it or you enjoy it, it gives you something to attach to. But also, it kind of gives you something as well if you don't like the trend.
BADARACCO: It works both ways. Yeah.
LUSE: Suzy, thank you so much for coming on the show.
BADARACCO: Well, thank you so much for having me.
LUSE: Thanks again to food trend forecaster Suzy Badaracco. This episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE was produced by...
MCBAIN: Liam McBain.
LUSE: Our editor is...
JESSICA PLACZEK, BYLINE: Jessica Placzek.
LUSE: Engineering support came from...
NEIL TEVAULT, BYLINE: Neil Tevault.
LUSE: Our executive producer is...
VERALYN WILLIAMS, BYLINE: Veralyn Williams.
LUSE: Our VP of programming is...
YOLANDA SANGWENI, BYLINE: Yolanda Sangweni.
LUSE: Our senior VP of programming is...
ANYA GRUNDMANN, BYLINE: Anya Grundmann.
LUSE: All right. That's all for this episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE FROM NPR. I'm Brittany Luse. Talk soon.
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