BRITTANY LUSE, HOST:
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luse, and you're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
LUSE: Now that we're in the dog days of summer, and there's only about a month left, I wanted to know - have we established a song of the summer - you know, the kind of bop you suddenly start hearing everywhere?
SIDNEY MADDEN, BYLINE: It's what's on the wind. It's universal. It's playing from every club, barber shop, barbecue.
LUSE: That's Sidney Madden, reporter for NPR Music. Over the years, there have been so many songs of the summer. Who could forget when Lil Wayne came out with "A Milli" in 2008...
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "A MILLI")
LIL WAYNE: (Singing) A milli, a milli, a milli, a milli, a milli, a milli, a milli, a milli...
LUSE: ..."Despacito" in 2017?
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DESPACITO")
LUIS FONSI: (Singing) Despacito.
LUSE: Well, according to Sidney, it's not so clear cut anymore.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MADDEN: We are more disparate and spread out than ever. That's why it's hard to chart a single song right now, you know? It's kind of like, choose your own adventure, more than ever.
LUSE: When we talked about the song of the summer last year, we concluded that there wasn't one. That didn't mean the monoculture was dead. Taylor Swift and Beyonce dominated with their tours but not with new summer releases. However, this year, we got a lot of new music and new contenders. So today, I'm joined by Sidney Madden, along with NPR Music writer and editor Stephen Thompson, to talk about the songs of the summer. That's right - there may not be one but a few, and each song tells us something a little different about our cultural moment.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
LUSE: Sidney, Stephen, welcome to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE.
MADDEN: Thank you, always.
STEPHEN THOMPSON, BYLINE: Thank you.
LUSE: Now, I am excited to talk about these songs of the summer with you. I love these kind of bops. Like, I feel like they usually give me kind of, like, a fun, carefreeness or just, like, a feeling of being outside, you know? And we're going to get into the many, many contenders we've got for song of the summer this year. Maybe, though, I'd start with "360" from Charli XCX's album, "Brat"...
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "360")
CHARLI XCX: (Singing) Yeah, 360. When you're in the mirror, do you like what you see? When you're in the mirror, you're just looking at me. I'm everywhere. I'm so Julia.
LUSE: ...Which is an album we have talked a lot about on this show. Even though, up until this point, she's been kind of a niche pop artist, this album is definitely in our cultural zeitgeist and now connected politically through Kamala Harris' campaign.
MADDEN: Yeah.
THOMPSON: Yeah, exactly. One tweet - Kamala is brat (laughter).
MADDEN: Solidified it.
LUSE: As I said last week, my mom has been asking me to listen to "Brat." And I'm like, girl, I do not know if that's for you.
MADDEN: You know what's intriguing about that, though, Brittany? - is you're saying it's a pull for a feeling of being carefree and, you know, living up in the good weather, in the good times, but a lot of the songs that are, let's say, contenders for song of the summer this year are the antithesis of that - songs like "Not Like Us." That is not carefree.
THOMPSON: Totally.
LUSE: Not, not.
MADDEN: Songs like "Espresso" - it's, on its face, trying to be carefree, but it's like, no, you're actually really obsessed with me.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "ESPRESSO")
SABRINA CARPENTER: (Singing) And I got this one boy, and he won't stop calling. When they act this way, I know I got them. Too bad your...
MADDEN: Like, a lot of the messaging of the songs of the summer - they have this carefree essence, but the themes are actually rooted in deep, blunt emotions - "Brat" being a great example of that.
LUSE: Oh, yeah. I mean...
THOMPSON: Yeah.
LUSE: ...The whole thing sounds like it's just, like, club, fun, partying.
THOMPSON: Oh, yeah.
LUSE: And then she's like, should I have a baby? Is this girl really my friend?
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "GIRL, SO CONFUSING")
CHARLI XCX: (Singing) Yeah, I don't know if you like me. Sometimes, I think you might hate me. Sometimes, I think I might hate you. Maybe you just...
LUSE: Like, at first, I listened to the album, and I was like, I'm really into this. And then I started listening to the lyrics, and I was like, am I crying?
MADDEN: (Laughter).
LUSE: Is it raining on my face?
THOMPSON: Party music that makes you sad...
LUSE: (Laughter) Yes.
THOMPSON: ...Is such a great genre, just like I'm into comedy that makes me cry.
LUSE: (Laughter) Yes.
MADDEN: Sexy, sad - yep.
LUSE: Getting into the discussion of the multiple songs of summer, I think they're - being different songs of summer, I think it's been kind of a good thing. It's been fun for me, as, like, a music fan and as a music listener. It kind of has helped me to feel like I'm getting windows back into those segmented listening groups, which - you know, because we're all doing our own streaming, there are different summer hits for different people. I've been feeling like, oh, that's what everybody's been doing over there. Like, one good example for me - a song that I had to go and listen to in order to prepare for this conversation - was "I Had Some Help" from Post Malone featuring Morgan Wallen.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I HAD SOME HELP (FEAT. MORGAN WALLEN)")
POST MALONE: (Singing) They say teamwork makes the dream work. Hell, I had some help.
LUSE: I wonder, what do you think that this song reflects about the moment?
THOMPSON: Well, what I think it reflects about this moment is that country music is an enormously dominant genre in America right now. And this song, for me, is just, like, a perfect country crossover. It's a country song that I think is accessible beyond country audiences. It's kind of a playful theme. It feels summery (ph) and silly. It is a song about being messy. It's a song about being a screw-up.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I HAD SOME HELP (FEAT. MORGAN WALLEN)")
MALONE: (Singing) It ain't like I can make this kind of mess all by myself. Don't act like you ain't help me pull that bottle off the shelf.
THOMPSON: It's a very relatable song without necessarily falling into the trap that a lot of country music a lot of very mainstream country music falls into, which is just, like, a list of things I like.
LUSE: (Laughter).
THOMPSON: I like cold beer on a Friday night. You know...
LUSE: Yeah.
THOMPSON: ...It's not just like it's written by an app (laughter), you know?
LUSE: No, there's, like, some emotional resonance to it.
THOMPSON: Well, you know, I heard the song, and one of my first thoughts was Post Malone is Brat.
(LAUGHTER)
MADDEN: Yo, that could be a whole nother remix that would probably do really well on a deluxe-deluxe.
LUSE: Probably do numbers (laughter).
THOMPSON: It would do so well (laughter).
LUSE: They've got to work in all the remix together.
MADDEN: But outside the social experiment that is Post Malone...
(LAUGHTER)
MADDEN: ...I feel like just watching and listening to country a little bit more acutely than I have in years past, country music is gaining so much popularity. It's also becoming such a lightning rod for politics in a way, again. In reference to a lot of other songs that were big last year, like Jason Aldean "Try That In A Small Town."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "TRY THAT IN A SMALL TOWN")
JASON ALDEAN: (Singing) Try that in a small town. See how far you make it down the road.
MADDEN: Or there was that other song.
THOMPSON: Oliver Anthony "Rich Men North Of Richmond."
MADDEN: Yes. Yeah.
LUSE: Yes.
MADDEN: Yeah.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG "RICH MEN NORTH OF RICHMOND")
OLIVER ANTHONY: (Singing) These rich men north of Richmond, Lord knows they all just want to have total control.
MADDEN: It's tied to identity in a politicized way. But I don't really see, even though it's gaining so much more space in the mainstream market, I don't see these names that we're talking about in country really doing anything that revolutionary. I think that was a big point of what "Cowboy Carter" was trying to theorize on earlier in the year when Beyonce was making basically a whole dissertation of long boiling resentment of how country music is a Black birthed art form, and it got commodified over generations and decades to mean something else.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "AMERIICAN REQUIEM")
BEYONCE: (Singing) They used to say I spoke too country. And the rejection came, said I wasn't country enough.
MADDEN: And something like Shaboozey's "A Bar Song."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "A BAR SONG (TIPSY)")
SHABOOZEY: (Singing) There's a party downtown near Fifth Street. Everybody at the bar getting tipsy.
MADDEN: Also, occupying the space at the same time as a...
LUSE: Yeah.
MADDEN: ...Morgan Wallen song and breaking records on the Billboard charts. I think that's much more of a revolutionary.
LUSE: And also, Shaboozey himself kind of benefiting from the Beyonce effect of...
MADDEN: Exactly.
LUSE: ..."Cowboy Carter." He was a featured artist on "Cowboy Carter"...
THOMPSON: That's crucial.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SPAGHETTII")
SHABOOZEY: (Singing) Howl to the moon. Outlaws with me, they gon' shoot. Keep the code...
LUSE: ...And is having this huge moment himself right now.
MADDEN: Exactly. I feel like that's a much more intriguing and exclusive and unique story happening in the country space this year.
LUSE: I want to move to another artist trying to make your song of the summer - Miss Sabrina Carpenter. Miss Sabrina Carpenter.
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
LUSE: She's got two hits on the charts right now.
MADDEN: Yeah.
THOMPSON: Yeah.
MADDEN: She's got options.
LUSE: She's given us options. And both of those honestly are doing really well. I think they could both be contenders for song of the summer. One is "Espresso."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "ESPRESSO")
CARPENTER: (Singing) Say you can't sleep, baby, I know. That's that me espresso.
LUSE: But also, "Please Please Please." You spoke earlier about "Espresso." It seems like a very sweet song, but it's really about, like, letting somebody know that you peep that they're obsessed with you. There's a lot more fervent emotion below that song than - in the lyrics than what it initially...
MADDEN: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Sounds like. And I also hear that with her following single, "Please Please Please."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE")
CARPENTER: (Singing) Please, please, please don't bring me to tears when I just did my...
LUSE: I want to know what y'all think. How do y'all feel about Miss Sabrina Carpenter in these two songs?
MADDEN: She's playing this year really, really smart because these two songs that we're talking about, they're both off of the forthcoming album of hers "Short N' Sweet," which is due out in August. So that's going to be kind of, like, the punctuation of her summer. And then it's going to spearhead and ricochet to her going on tour. But, yeah, exactly. Brittany, I think it's so smart how the songs are cheeky and frothy and cute. She's giving, like, coquette, who's going to steal all your credit cards and your identity. Right?
(LAUGHTER)
MADDEN: And it's...
LUSE: Exactly.
MADDEN: ...Speaking to the potency of her songwriting or whoever her collaborators are in this songwriting because it's the art of the switch-up that plays really well with the TikTok generation. Like, if you're trying to tell a story with a piece of audio and you want kind of a twist ending or a conflict, it's, like, oh, cinnamon roll who could kill you, you know? That's exactly what she's giving you saying, heartbreak is one thing.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE")
CARPENTER: (Singing) My ego's another. I beg you don't embarrass me, [expletive].
MADDEN: Like, she's singing it so sweetly, but...
LUSE: Yes.
MADDEN: ...It's also a threat and a promise, you know?
LUSE: Yes. And also, too, I mean, there's also - I mean, you talk about her playing it smart. I can't necessarily speak to her intentions or to the, you know, the machinations of her relationship with Barry Keoghan...
MADDEN: (Laughter) Yes.
LUSE: ...Who is her boyfriend right now.
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
LUSE: But, I mean, you know, he's kind of known as a little bit of a wild guy. And her releasing this song, "Please Please Please," about, like, being in love with somebody that maybe you're, like, 90% sure about, but that last 10% is really sticking out like a sore thumb. And you're just like, whatever you do, please don't embarrass me. Like, also, her putting him in the video, it's so smart. You get to benefit from, like, the halo effect of his fame and, like, the fame bubble that your relationship creates. But you also get plausible deniability.
(LAUGHTER)
LUSE: Later, down the line, if it doesn't work out, you could just say, look. You know, it's kind of like with Ariana Grande and "Thank U, Next." It's clever and also a little cynical in a way that I think people are connecting with.
(SOUNDBITE OF FLEVANS' "FLICKER")
LUSE: Coming up, we're talking about a massive breakthrough artist that Stephen sort of had a hand in pulling up.
(SOUNDBITE OF FLEVANS' "FLICKER")
LUSE: And we're back with NPR Music's Stephen Thompson and Sidney Madden, talking about the songs of the summer from the likes of Post Malone to Sabrina Carpenter.
THOMPSON: I mean, one thing that's really interesting to me about Sabrina Carpenter is she fits in with a little bit of a mini theme, which is the overnight sensation who's been doing this forever.
MADDEN: A decade almost, yeah.
LUSE: Like Shaboozey.
THOMPSON: Sabrina Carpenter has been around for a really long time. She was a Disney Channel personality.
LUSE: Yes.
THOMPSON: She's put out a bunch of albums. And, like, all of a sudden, it's like, oh, well, she just came out of nowhere with this frothy song. And it's like, no, she has been figuring it out for years and years and years. And this is the year that all of the component parts came together.
LUSE: Yes.
THOMPSON: And that is also true of another name that I cannot believe we have not yet mentioned - Chappell Roan.
LUSE: Chappell Roan. Oh, my gosh, yes. I mean, she - I can name so many of her songs that have really popped.
THOMPSON: (Laughter) She has six songs on the Hot 100 right now.
LUSE: I know. I mean - and it's wild 'cause, like, I remember when her Tiny Desk came out. And I had heard some of her songs, and I really liked them. But seeing this moment happen for her - having a moment that reminds me really of, like, Lady Gaga in, like, 2007, 2008, where it was like, hey, there's this, like - this cute girl doing all this weird stuff...
MADDEN: Yeah.
LUSE: ...That's kind of cool and kind of fun and kind of strange, it's something that, to me, felt very unexpected. But Stephen, I mean, I know you helped set up her Tiny Desk concert (laughter).
THOMPSON: I booked that Tiny Desk.
LUSE: Yeah.
THOMPSON: I produced that Tiny Desk.
MADDEN: Yes.
THOMPSON: I have been eating lunch off of that Tiny Desk concert...
(LAUGHTER)
THOMPSON: ...For, like - what? - like, six months now?
(LAUGHTER)
THOMPSON: It has bought me so much credibility with so many of my friends.
(LAUGHTER)
LUSE: Wait, talk to me about how you think her songs have really broken through because, I mean, to me, she seemed primed for niche pop fame.
THOMPSON: Yeah, I mean, I think - when I look at the trajectory of her career, I just think - and first of all, like - again, another person - she's been at this for years. She got dropped by a major label. She was, like, signed to a major label as a teenager. Some of these songs on this album have been out since, you know, 2020, 2021...
LUSE: Wow.
THOMPSON: ...You know? If you watch her videos chronologically - watch her interviews chronologically, you see her slowly, piece by piece, putting together the persona that blew up in 2024 that - you know, influenced by drag artists. You know, you see - yeah, like, now she kind of performs with these - like, the big red wig and the kind of white face paint and the smudged-up makeup and stuff - that was, like, built piece by piece over time and then in 2024, all of the pieces of that coming together.
And a lot of people do point to that Tiny Desk concert as a big catalyst for some of the growth. But that Tiny Desk concert dropped as she was touring with Olivia Rodrigo. And where that record, for me, really seemed to fully take off was once you started getting into Pride Month. She and Charli XCX really helped soundtrack Pride this year.
LUSE: Yeah.
MADDEN: Yeah.
THOMPSON: And Pride just felt big this year 'cause it had so many mainstream pop tie-ins. So now I'm just fascinated to see how much bigger she can get. Something is still happening. She is somebody people are still discovering. I love to see it. I love new faces.
LUSE: Same. I am loving the new energy. There is a song this summer. It was birthed into a moment that was created by two feuding artists.
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
LUSE: I'm talking, of course...
MADDEN: Ugh.
LUSE: ...About "Not Like Us" by Kendrick Lamar.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "NOT LIKE US")
KENDRICK LAMAR: (Rapping) They not like us. They not like us. They not like us.
LUSE: I was at a family member's elementary school's end-of-the-year, like, summer barbecue or something like that. And they were playing "Not Like Us."
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
LUSE: Like, the kids know "Not Like Us." (Laughter) And I'm like, you're too young to even know who Kendrick Lamar is. How do you know this song?
MADDEN: That's wild. That's so wild.
LUSE: But also - cherry on top - was played at a church conference my parents went to down south, like, a month ago (laughter).
THOMPSON: Not since the song "Blurred Lines" was played at a daddy-daughter dance I attended...
MADDEN: Oh, my gosh.
LUSE: Oh, no.
(LAUGHTER)
LUSE: Oh, no.
THOMPSON: ...Has there been such an odd placement of a big hit (laughter).
LUSE: Yes. I mean, the thing is, though, is that, like, this song has penetrated every single possible event and setting, even though it has a very distinctly...
THOMPSON: Very West Coast.
LUSE: Very West Coast. Very specifically, like LA...
MADDEN: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Southern California sound. It's not, like, a straightforward kind of boppy summer anthem.
MADDEN: It is not carefree at all.
THOMPSON: No. It's thorny.
LUSE: Talk to me about what is setting "Not Like Us" apart and what's making it connect with people so much.
MADDEN: Yeah. I've got a lot to say about this one.
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
MADDEN: It's the exact antithesis of what you would think a song of the summer would be. It's, like you said, Stephen, it's thorny and it's so targeted at one person. But the ricochet effect is everything that we're talking about. It's united the West Coast in a funny way. I've seen it used as wedding entrance music.
LUSE: (Laughter).
MADDEN: In my research, it's the first hip-hop diss song to go No. 1 on the Billboard charts, which is a big deal for a lot of different reasons. But...
THOMPSON: Yeah.
MADDEN: ...Again, I have to bring up the content of the song and the context that it's living in so much because the song is about - the accusations, I should say, of Drake grooming underage girls and keeping people in his camp that do the same thing. And the timing of that is especially ironic because of this spotlight that is on hip-hop right now when it comes to sexual assault, when it comes to sexual coercion, with everything that's happening with the Diddy allegations and the fallout of them. This song is in response to a Drake previous diss where Drake is accusing Kendrick...
THOMPSON: Yeah.
MADDEN: ...Of domestic violence. And I just feel like we're also negotiating our own complicity every time - or maybe we're not. Maybe we're, like, suppressing it a lot, just by singing A minor at, like...
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
MADDEN: Are we really coming to terms with what this means? And that's like the sad reality, and honestly, the normalization that happens all the time in hip-hop.
LUSE: Like you said, there are all these conversations happening about Diddy and all of these allegations and the videotape that we could see of him abusing Cassie in a hotel hallway. It feels like, you know, there's lots of people looking back now on the moment that allowed that kind of abuse to continue. I think that in a few years, maybe five to 10, people might look back on this moment and "Not Like Us" and feel similar regret. So we will see what happens with that. But yeah, it's been interesting. This whole summer, I feel like so many of the songs that have been connecting with people have been exploring or expressing dark or sad or hateful emotions. But there also have been some classic summer songs. I cannot have this conversation without talking about "Nasty" by my girl Tinashe.
MADDEN: Yes.
THOMPSON: Yeah.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "NASTY")
TINASHE: (Singing) Nasty. I've been a nasty girl. Nasty. I've been a nasty, nasty, nasty. Is somebody going to match my freak?
THOMPSON: Is somebody going to match my freak?
LUSE: That's the question we've all been asking this summer, OK? I'm going to tell you something. I've been in the trenches as a Tinashe fan - OK? - for, like, at least a decade. Maybe 12 years, I would say, at this point. To see this huge breakthrough moment happen for her that I don't think we've seen, at least from a charting perspective and a streaming perspective, since the first single that she put out, I believe, in 2013.
SIDNEY MADDEN AND BRITTANY LUSE: "2 ON."
LUSE: People still play it at the club to this day.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "2 ON")
TINASHE: (Singing) I love to get on. I love to get 2 on. When the drink be too strong.
LUSE: "Nasty" is perfectly danceable. The lyrics are easily repeatable.
THOMPSON: Oh yeah. It's quotable. It's not just memorable, but it's quotable.
MADDEN: Yeah.
LUSE: Yes. I don't know. Like, it's got, like, that great summer message, which is I'm hot.
THOMPSON: Right.
LUSE: Like, that's what...
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
LUSE: ...This song is about.
MADDEN: I'm outside. I'm here. Cuffing season has not commenced. I'm ready.
LUSE: Yeah, exactly.
MADDEN: Yes.
LUSE: And it's like, who's coming? Who's coming to meet me? Like, who's going to take me out?
MADDEN: Yeah.
THOMPSON: I think it fits thematically with several of the other songs we've talked about.
MADDEN: Exactly.
THOMPSON: This is a song about being hot and chaotic.
LUSE: (Laughter).
MADDEN: And it's from an artist who's put in years of work at the building blocks.
BRITTANY LUSE AND STEPHEN THOMPSON: Yes.
THOMPSON: And fits into that, as well.
MADDEN: And found their sound and...
LUSE: So true.
MADDEN: ...Really ran with it. I think the song itself hits the perfect balance of being slinky but also, like, methodical, or, like, robotic, almost. (Singing) I've been a nasty girl.
LUSE: She's got a new album coming out called "Quantum Baby."
MADDEN: See? Robotic slinky. "Quantum Baby."
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
LUSE: You got it. You got it. But yeah, it'll be interesting to see how you know, she continues to kind of ride this moment. We've seen so many different themes across so many different genres of music this summer. And I think one of the biggest ones is seeing artists who are either previously niche or long loved by their, like, most ardent fans and supporters finally have these huge mainstream moments after years of grinding it out. I am mostly just happy that after, like, this back and forth between Taylor Swift and Beyonce...
THOMPSON: Yeah.
LUSE: ...That both of them seem to have - even though they have both released music this year, it almost feels like, culturally, they both have stepped back. All of these other artists and musical moments have been able to flourish.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
LUSE: Sid, Stephen, I couldn't have imagined two better people to talk to about the song of the summer. This was so much fun. Thank you both so much.
THOMPSON: Oh, thank you.
MADDEN: Thank you, always.
LUSE: Thanks again to NPR's Sidney Madden and Stephen Thompson. You can find more of their work at npr.org.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
LUSE: This episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE was produced by...
LIAM MCBAIN, BYLINE: Liam McBain.
COREY ANTONIO ROSE, BYLINE: Corey Antonio Rose.
LUSE: This episode was edited by...
JESSICA PLACZEK, BYLINE: Jessica Placzek.
LUSE: Engineering support came from...
ZAC COLEMAN, BYLINE: Zac Coleman.
LUSE: Our executive producer is...
VERALYN WILLIAMS, BYLINE: Veralyn Williams.
LUSE: Our VP of programming is...
YOLANDA SANGWENI, BYLINE: Yolanda Sangweni.
LUSE: All right. That's all for this episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Brittany Luse. Talk soon.
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